[quote]Professor X wrote:
Yes, for most people with EXTREME GOALS IN MUSCULAR SIZE, they will have to go through some period where they do not look ideal.
[/quote]
This includes getting to the point where they have to lose 80-100 POUNDS to look ideal?
If you have to lose 80-100 lbs to get down to 10% bf, you probably added way too much fat than was necessary on a bulk.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Yes, for most people with EXTREME GOALS IN MUSCULAR SIZE, they will have to go through some period where they do not look ideal.
[/quote]
This includes getting to the point where they have to lose 80-100 POUNDS to look ideal?[/quote]
Uh, no and no one said that or wrote that anywhere.
[quote]
If you have to lose 80-100 lbs to get down to 10% bf, you probably added way too much fat than was necessary on a bulk. [/quote]
Maybe. Maybe that added bulk helped them reach a higher strength level over the course of a couple of years that they would NOT have gotten to otherwise…which could mean more muscle growth. Not to mention, NO ONE WOULD KNOW HOW MUCH SOMEONE WOULD HAVE TO LOSE UNTIL THEY LOST IT so making up some "80-100lbs range is a little strange.
Maybe that added bulk helped save tendon strength and joints during the process of gaining all that muscle leading to less injury.
These are all factors you seem to ignore.
NO ONE here is telling someone to gain 100lbs of fat. Once again, the same point as always is that if you have extreme goals, learning to work on building the most muscle possible for some time takes priority over “just abs”.
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
Old school pro BBers used to bulk, that’s what average guys should do.
Now pro BBers are staying lean year round, but that won’t work for average guys.
You don’t see the disconnect there?
Yes, Kai Greene has elite genetics, that’s why I only compared present Kai to past Kai and nobody else. I mean if the guy looks better than ever and says he didn’t gain any more muscle doing the traditional bulk, doesn’t that have merit worthy of consideration?
BTW, it’s hard to get tone from text alone so please understand I’m not trying to pick a fight, I’m just trying to understand where you are coming from. I respect your opinion and have enjoyed your thoughts in this thread.[/quote]
I don’t think all pro’s stay lean all year – certainly some do, but not all. We’ve all seen Ronnie and other guys looking quite out of condition.
Plus, keep in mind --most of these are guys who already have incredible amounts of mass. They’re all way past any type of foundation building stage.
Kai does what works for Kai. I remember seeing him in 1996 when he was natural, and he had a better physique and more size than most guys competing in the amateur, non-tested ranks. Freak!
And yes, to X’s point, you can’t ignore drugs, especially GH/thyroid meds to radically alter the off-season game. Just saying, unfortunately.
Good discussion.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]steven alex wrote:
PX you have gained a reputation here as someone loathe to admit to making mistakes but you posted elsewhere that there has been a lot of trial and error in your lifting career. Would you care to elucidate on some of the mistakes you made in your methodology?[/quote]
I can flat out say I am wrong often. I also know I am smart enough to learn from it. I learned you don’t need to eat every two hours to get swole.
Eating six meals a day used to be a staple in bodybuilding. I am GLAD I did that initially because it helped me get into the mindset to eat what I needed to grow. I just now know that while the “routine” helped, I probably could have toned it down a little and still made progress.
Other than that, it is hard to call these things “mistakes”…because they all lead to an end goal…and if you reach it…you didn’t fail at anything.
The ones who failed are the guys who actually think they are doing everything perfectly but never come close to their overall goal. They failed.
I just fucked up a little and learned not to do that same little shit again.[/quote]
I just wanted to speak more about this…because I see a lot of guys who seem to think they are damn near perfect in how they analyze their diet and training…but I don’t see that many really big guys here lean or otherwise.
Am I seeing things?
I know I have fucked up in my diet in the past. I make no claim to have it all worked out as far as what works best for me because I am still learning…and often, just when I think I have it, the changes in my body mean it now responds differently than before.
This is all about trial and error…so truthfully, the guys who think they literally know exactly what to do will no doubt avoid reaching their full potential.
Fads change. They come and go. Fear of fat changes to fear of carbs. The truth is, the more you understand, the less fear you have of any of it.
[quote]Bryan Krahn wrote:
Sorry amigo, that wasn’t what I said at all. Your logic ain’t connecting with mine!
Anyway, if you’re getting results from a stay lean approach to adding size, then have at it.
If, however, you find yourself looking the same year after year, this would be the first change I’d make. [/quote]
Absolutely beautifully put!
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
Wow. Constantly reframing it…[/quote]
Does this mean you can’t do it? You can’t respond on a level above just throwing more insults at me?
Why not respond to the topic? I just really want to see if you have it in you. I want to see if your knowledge runs as deep as your discontent.[/quote]
I insulted you? I think not. I wrote four words: “wow”, “constantly”, “reframing”, and “it”. [/quote]
So you can’t. Thanks for clearing that up. I won’t waste any more time with you then.[/quote]
Can’t what? Are we still talking about insults, or did you change the conversation again?
X, I really try to stay out of these things.
But you need to realize, you are coming at this discussion as someone saying “I want to be a huge strong-ass mofo” as an end-goal, yes? For starters, you simply aren’t going to get the same respect with that sort of non-definable goal as an aspiring bodybuilder, powerlifter, strongman, oly lifter, football player, etc will get. They can say “I won this BBing comp” or “I made the NFL” and point out the goals, with concrete evidence that they accomplished them.
You, with your vague goals, can only relay stories of times when various people said “hey that man looks big”. Not the same, not even comparable, unless you actually end up looking TRULY ridiculous. You haven’t dieted down, you haven’t even posted a single front double bicep sans shirt. You say things like “Well at 300 lbs I looked like a powerlifter”, but I don’t see your elite total to back that up. When’s the last time you squatted 2x bodyweight or more for reps?
So aside from these anecdotes of “The cashier thought I looked strong”, what do you have to PROVE you are someone to be listened to? I have a couple elite powerlifting totals, a pretty good physique, and that while serving active duty USMC and supporting a family. I manage to just about ALWAYS give people polite advice regarding training/diet questions, and not just vague “Eat more burgers” advice, but stuff that’s actually relevant. Same goes for people like Stu, Maiden, and too many more to mention. These are people that have competed, they have proved their mettle through definable means.
Your ability to blame the world while holding yourself as the sole shining pillar of true knowledge, the persecuted, is disgusting. I’ve had WAY too much experience with one particular delusional person recently (She’s a felon fwiw), and the similarity in your logic is disturbing. Do you see guys like steelyD being condescending in their responses to most people? Hell no…he’s a big burly guy, and I would propose that is at least in part because he KNOWS he doesn’t know it all, and that sort of thing is why he, and others, will always get more respect than somebody that acts like you have been.
Have some humble pie. It’s much more enjoyable when everything isn’t a pissing contest. Well, hopefully I can avoid posting in here again.
Nate
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Yes, for most people with EXTREME GOALS IN MUSCULAR SIZE, they will have to go through some period where they do not look ideal.
[/quote]
This includes getting to the point where they have to lose 80-100 POUNDS to look ideal?[/quote]
Uh, no and no one said that or wrote that anywhere.
[quote]
If you have to lose 80-100 lbs to get down to 10% bf, you probably added way too much fat than was necessary on a bulk. [/quote]
Maybe. Maybe that added bulk helped them reach a higher strength level over the course of a couple of years that they would NOT have gotten to otherwise…which could mean more muscle growth. Not to mention, NO ONE WOULD KNOW HOW MUCH SOMEONE WOULD HAVE TO LOSE UNTIL THEY LOST IT so making up some "80-100lbs range is a little strange.
Maybe that added bulk helped save tendon strength and joints during the process of gaining all that muscle leading to less injury.
These are all factors you seem to ignore.
NO ONE here is telling someone to gain 100lbs of fat. Once again, the same point as always is that if you have extreme goals, learning to work on building the most muscle possible for some time takes priority over “just abs”.[/quote]
Maybe. Maybe that same person could have gotten the same amount of muscle gains by taking a more calculated approach and saved himdself from months of dieting excess fat that he didn’t have to put on in the first place. Maybe that extra bulk, or fat, was just that- extra bulk. Maybe EXTREME GOALS also means taking extreme measures to get there, such as counting macros and adjusting based on the results instead of eyeballing and guessing and just simply eating enough to ensure growth.
These are all factors YOU seem to ignore.
[quote]hungry4more wrote:
X, I really try to stay out of these things.
But you need to realize, you are coming at this discussion as someone saying “I want to be a huge strong-ass mofo” as an end-goal, yes? For starters, you simply aren’t going to get the same respect with that sort of non-definable goal as an aspiring bodybuilder, powerlifter, strongman, oly lifter, football player, etc will get. They can say “I won this BBing comp” or “I made the NFL” and point out the goals, with concrete evidence that they accomplished them. [/quote]
True. Defining these goals on a website is a problem. People get caught up in semantics and request every aspect be spelled out…when biology doesn’t even work like that. There are too many variables.
I am aiming this at people with goals of being really big…but I am also talking to people who seem to think anyone much over 200lbs is just gaining fat.
[quote]
You, with your vague goals, can only relay stories of times when various people said “hey that man looks big”. Not the same, not even comparable, unless you actually end up looking TRULY ridiculous. You haven’t dieted down, you haven’t even posted a single front double bicep sans shirt. You say things like “Well at 300 lbs I looked like a powerlifter”, but I don’t see your elite total to back that up.[/quote]
Why would I need an elite total to back up how I said I looked? I posted my pictuire all during that time up to 290lbs. Now suddenly all of this is forgotten?
I mean, seriously, I made a reference to a LOOK…and you related that directly to powerlifting totals. That doesn’t make much sense.
[quote]
When’s the last time you squatted 2x bodyweight or more for reps?[/quote]
I don’t squat.
[quote]
So aside from these anecdotes of “The cashier thought I looked strong”, what do you have to PROVE you are someone to be listened to? I have a couple elite powerlifting totals, a pretty good physique, and that while serving active duty USMC and supporting a family. I manage to just about ALWAYS give people polite advice regarding training/diet questions, and not just vague “Eat more burgers” advice, but stuff that’s actually relevant. Same goes for people like Stu, Maiden, and too many more to mention. These are people that have competed, they have proved their mettle through definable means. [/quote]
Are you saying that if I say I am strong that I need to provide big three totals? Any lift I write down is questioned so I usually leave my strength out of tehse discussions…like me curlng an 90lbs dumbbell. That isn’t weak and weak people can’t do that…but since it isn’t powerlifting, that doesn’t count as an example of strength?
Could you clarify why I need to be a powerlifter to make the statement that I’m not weak?
I am not being condescending here. Steely isn’t even responding much lately. He like many others respond less because of the attitude of this forum. It has changed from what it was…thus the loss of guys like bwhitwell as well.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Maybe. Maybe that same person could have gotten the same amount of muscle gains by taking a more calculated approach and saved himdself from months of dieting excess fat that he didn’t have to put on in the first place. [/quote]
Dude, it literally took me 2 and a half months to lose nearly 5 inches of my waist and get to the pics you have seen here. Considering the YEARS it took to build all the muscle, no, I don’t see that as “saving myself from months of dieting” since most of us will be dieting at some point no matter what.
[quote]
Maybe that extra bulk, or fat, was just that- extra bulk. Maybe EXTREME GOALS also means taking extreme measures to get there, such as counting macros and adjusting based on the results instead of eyeballing and guessing and just simply eating enough to ensure growth.
These are all factors YOU seem to ignore.[/quote]
But…this would make more sense if I was really skinny and unmuscular.
Many of you will admit that leverage can effect strength and that tendons recover faster at a younger age…but then in discussions like this those points disappear. Why?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Maybe. Maybe that same person could have gotten the same amount of muscle gains by taking a more calculated approach and saved himdself from months of dieting excess fat that he didn’t have to put on in the first place. [/quote]
Dude, it literally took me 2 and a half months to lose nearly 5 inches of my waist and get to the pics you have seen here. Considering the YEARS it took to build all the muscle, no, I don’t see that as “saving myself from months of dieting” since most of us will be dieting at some point no matter what.
[quote]
Maybe that extra bulk, or fat, was just that- extra bulk. Maybe EXTREME GOALS also means taking extreme measures to get there, such as counting macros and adjusting based on the results instead of eyeballing and guessing and just simply eating enough to ensure growth.
These are all factors YOU seem to ignore.[/quote]
But…this would make more sense if I was really skinny and unmuscular.
Many of you will admit that leverage can effect strength and that tendons recover faster at a younger age…but then in discussions like this those points disappear. Why?[/quote]
You talk about leverages, yet you don’t do any of the lifts that most people agree that the extra weight affects such as squats and deadlifts. You do HS benches and plate loaded curl machines etc. You think a bunch of extra fat is helping you on HS bench press in a significant way to help you gain muscle?
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
You talk about leverages, yet you don’t do any of the lifts that most people agree that the extra weight affects such as squats and deadlifts.[/quote]
You do realize these two lifts would not be all that is affected, right? There are many exercises I don’t do now because of injuries. That doesn’t mean I never did them.
[quote]
You do HS benches and plate loaded curl machines etc. You think a bunch of extra fat is helping you on HS bench press in a significant way to help you gain muscle? [/quote]
Like I wrote, you seem to be only looking at how I lifted AFTER already training for several years. I started with mostly free weights.
You seem to misunderstand quite a bit. Anything else I can clear up for you?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
You talk about leverages, yet you don’t do any of the lifts that most people agree that the extra weight affects such as squats and deadlifts.[/quote]
You do realize these two lifts would not be all that is affected, right? There are many exercises I don’t do now because of injuries. That doesn’t mean I never did them.
[quote]
You do HS benches and plate loaded curl machines etc. You think a bunch of extra fat is helping you on HS bench press in a significant way to help you gain muscle? [/quote]
Like I wrote, you seem to be only looking at how I lifted AFTER already training for several years. I started with mostly free weights.
You seem to misunderstand quite a bit. Anything else I can clear up for you?[/quote]
Yes a few things.
When were you 300 lbs? What lifts did you do at that time?
You say you lost 5 inches on your waist in the last three months. I think we can agree that was 5 inches of fat. What lifts did you do three months ago that this 5 inches of fat helped you leverage wise?
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Yes a few things.
When were you 300 lbs? What lifts did you do at that time? [/quote]
I was doing mostly leg press for my legs at the time and was moving to more HS machines around that time so my lifts, as some have stated, do not exist.
[quote]
You say you lost 5 inches on your waist in the last three months. I think we can agree that was 5 inches of fat. What lifts did you do three months ago that this 5 inches of fat helped you leverage wise?[/quote]
I didn’t say I lost that in the last 3 month at all. I said from my fattest weight, I got to the level of the pics in this thread in less than 3 months.
Once again, you seem to miss things that I am writing very clearly. Why is that?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Yes a few things.
When were you 300 lbs? What lifts did you do at that time? [/quote]
I was doing mostly leg press for my legs at the time and was moving to more HS machines around that time so my lifts, as some have stated, do not exist.
[quote]
You say you lost 5 inches on your waist in the last three months. I think we can agree that was 5 inches of fat. What lifts did you do three months ago that this 5 inches of fat helped you leverage wise?[/quote]
I didn’t say I lost that in the last 3 month at all. I said from my fattest weight, I got to the level of the pics in this thread in less than 3 months.
Once again, you seem to miss things that I am writing very clearly. Why is that?[/quote]
So at 300 lbs you were doing HS presses and leg presses. Do you feel the extra 5 inches of fat on your waist helped you on these lifts??
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
So at 300 lbs you were doing HS presses and leg presses. Do you feel the extra 5 inches of fat on your waist helped you on these lifts??
[/quote]
Maybe with legs, yes. I was also still doing dumbbells for presses through some of that time so yes, it likely helped with that as well…and lets face it, lifting heavy dumbbells into place for a lift takes full body strength and not just “strong pecs”.
That wasn’t specifically why I was 300lbs. That was based on the fact that I was more interested in gaining muscle than losing body fat at the time. I already knew what my long term goal was…and most guys who look like me at 250 have been heavier.
“Bodybuilding is an illusion”
why do they say that?
[quote]browndisaster wrote:
“Bodybuilding is an illusion”
why do they say that?[/quote]
Because you can’t define the strength level of a LOOK…like some in this thread seem to be doing.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]hungry4more wrote:
X, I really try to stay out of these things.
But you need to realize, you are coming at this discussion as someone saying “I want to be a huge strong-ass mofo” as an end-goal, yes? For starters, you simply aren’t going to get the same respect with that sort of non-definable goal as an aspiring bodybuilder, powerlifter, strongman, oly lifter, football player, etc will get. They can say “I won this BBing comp” or “I made the NFL” and point out the goals, with concrete evidence that they accomplished them. [/quote]
True. Defining these goals on a website is a problem. People get caught up in semantics and request every aspect be spelled out…when biology doesn’t even work like that. There are too many variables.
I am aiming this at people with goals of being really big…but I am also talking to people who seem to think anyone much over 200lbs is just gaining fat.
[quote]
You, with your vague goals, can only relay stories of times when various people said “hey that man looks big”. Not the same, not even comparable, unless you actually end up looking TRULY ridiculous. You haven’t dieted down, you haven’t even posted a single front double bicep sans shirt. You say things like “Well at 300 lbs I looked like a powerlifter”, but I don’t see your elite total to back that up.[/quote]
Why would I need an elite total to back up how I said I looked? I posted my pictuire all during that time up to 290lbs. Now suddenly all of this is forgotten?
I mean, seriously, I made a reference to a LOOK…and you related that directly to powerlifting totals. That doesn’t make much sense.
[quote]
When’s the last time you squatted 2x bodyweight or more for reps?[/quote]
I don’t squat.
Why are you speaking for Steely? Didn’t you complain about me speaking for other posters not too long ago? Steely has been posting. Perhaps you missed his Best Poast, Roast, Toast, and Markie Post… posts.
LOL
To anybody watching this thread, can someone please post a link or tell me what to search for information concerning the relation between changes in leverage in terms of changes in mass?
I was under the impression that leverage is pretty much concrete and not susceptible to change in terms of tendon placement. I guess this is more of an outside the muscle-bone connection type of leverage?
Now let’s say that the increased mass does lead to increased leverage (which seems to be an accepted notion around here) the mechanical advantage reduce the amount of effort a muscle needs to exert on a mass so to compensate I would assume the subject would increase the weights they are working with. But wouldn’t this just nullify the effects of the advantage?
Ex:
Subject 1: 180 lbs 0% body fat (for experimental sake)
Squats 180 lbs
Subject 2: 190 lbs + 10 lbs of fat
Squats 190 lbs (180 from muscle contraction + 10 from leverage)
Would subject 2 necessarily grow faster than 1? They are effectively using the same amount of muscle. Or am i totally misunderstanding this?