The Body Weight Factor 2

Training
341

[quote]Bryan Krahn wrote:
I think that sometimes people forget that old school bodybuilders all bulked up as youths, some even getting downright fat, and continued to include bulk up periods during the off-season.

The whole “stay lean all year” thing is a relatively new phenomena, and is a necessary evil just for guys who make money off of being lean and near-camera ready.

Not saying there isn’t a point where fat gets out of hand – it does – but these “4 week bulk/4 week cut” anal retentive things are not ideal for the majority of guys, fitness models and actors notwithstanding. [/quote]

Agreed. Not to mention, using the amounts of GH or growth factors these guys are taking alone can allow them to stay leaner when gaining.

342

[quote]Bryan Krahn wrote:
I think that sometimes people forget that old school bodybuilders all bulked up as youths, some even getting downright fat, and continued to include bulk up periods during the off-season.

The whole “stay lean all year” thing is a relatively new phenomena, and is a necessary evil just for guys who make money off of being lean and near-camera ready.

Not saying there isn’t a point where fat gets out of hand – it does – but these “4 week bulk/4 week cut” anal retentive things are not ideal for the majority of guys, fitness models and actors notwithstanding. [/quote]

Bryan, man, you are spewing ANATHEMA in these parts.

Love it.

Watch your back, bro… watch your back…

343

[quote]Bryan Krahn wrote:
I think that sometimes people forget that old school bodybuilders all bulked up as youths, some even getting downright fat, and continued to include bulk up periods during the off-season.

The whole “stay lean all year” thing is a relatively new phenomena, and is a necessary evil just for guys who make money off of being lean and near-camera ready.

Not saying there isn’t a point where fat gets out of hand – it does – but these “4 week bulk/4 week cut” anal retentive things are not ideal for the majority of guys, fitness models and actors notwithstanding. [/quote]

Like who? genuinely curious. All the young golden era guys I’ve seen pics of are pretty lean.

I’m not sure who is pushing the 4 week bulk and cut thing either…

344

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

I think this is where the main disagreement here is. We all agree that there are times when putting on a little extra fat is necessarry to gain muscle. But for someone natty of average height with physique oriented goals (big and lean) there is no reason to get to 300 lbs. You could hold the “set point” of 300 pounds as long as you like, you would still be extremely lucky to get down to 200lbs 10% or less.

why would anyone with a goal of being really big and really lean want to put themselves in a situation where they have to lose 100 POUNDS to reach that goal?[/quote]

I am sorry, but who is telling people to hit 300lbs?

I simply stated what I have done in the past. Why do you think this means anyone else should reach 300lbs?

[/quote]

I am simply saying people with the goal of really big and really lean should not do what you did. I guess we agree.[/quote]

?? What I did was bulk up while I was gaining muscle. At 300lbs I was not some flabby looking obese guy. I looked like a powerlifter. What I did worked for me. Why would I not tell people to bulk up using their muscle mass gained as a guide to the extent while keeping body fat from getting out of control?

If I was “out of control” as far as body fat, there is no way in hell I could have lost most of it in only THREE MONTHS.[/quote]

So you do believe someone natty of average height would benefit from bulking up to around 300 pounds?

And LOL who has a goal to “look like a powerlifter?” What does that even mean? Powerlifters range from 148 lb skinner types to 300+ lb fat asses and everything in between. So i’ll give you that, you probably looked like a powerlifter out there somewhere.

345

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
So, what’s my bodyfat? How many weeks out am I?

Bulk or cut?

Am I holding back my progress being too lean?

Trololol…[/quote]
You’re around 35% bf. Probably only a week or two out of contest shape if you start eating only hot pockets.

You definitely need to bulk though.

You’re destroying your progress. What you need to do is start eating pizza until you’re around 240, then immediately go to the gym and bench over 4 plates. Then you’ll be strong again.

You’re welcome.[/quote]

What should my hamburger per hour ratio be?[/quote]
You poor skinny bastard.

Replace the word “hamburger” with the words “double cheeseburger” in your vocabulary. Aim for at least 12 a day in addition to your regular meals.

346

[quote]steven alex wrote:
PX you have gained a reputation here as someone loathe to admit to making mistakes but you posted elsewhere that there has been a lot of trial and error in your lifting career. Would you care to elucidate on some of the mistakes you made in your methodology?[/quote]

I can flat out say I am wrong often. I also know I am smart enough to learn from it. I learned you don’t need to eat every two hours to get swole.

Eating six meals a day used to be a staple in bodybuilding. I am GLAD I did that initially because it helped me get into the mindset to eat what I needed to grow. I just now know that while the “routine” helped, I probably could have toned it down a little and still made progress.

Other than that, it is hard to call these things “mistakes”…because they all lead to an end goal…and if you reach it…you didn’t fail at anything.

The ones who failed are the guys who actually think they are doing everything perfectly but never come close to their overall goal. They failed.

I just fucked up a little and learned not to do that same little shit again.

347

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Bryan Krahn wrote:
I think that sometimes people forget that old school bodybuilders all bulked up as youths, some even getting downright fat, and continued to include bulk up periods during the off-season.

The whole “stay lean all year” thing is a relatively new phenomena, and is a necessary evil just for guys who make money off of being lean and near-camera ready.

Not saying there isn’t a point where fat gets out of hand – it does – but these “4 week bulk/4 week cut” anal retentive things are not ideal for the majority of guys, fitness models and actors notwithstanding. [/quote]

Bryan, man, you are spewing ANATHEMA in these parts.

[/i][/quote]

D…nobody is saying there is not more than one way to skin a cat.

348

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

Wow. Constantly reframing it…[/quote]

Does this mean you can’t do it? You can’t respond on a level above just throwing more insults at me?

Why not respond to the topic? I just really want to see if you have it in you. I want to see if your knowledge runs as deep as your discontent.[/quote]

I insulted you? I think not. I wrote four words: “wow”, “constantly”, “reframing”, and “it”.

349

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

So you do believe someone natty of average height would benefit from bulking up to around 300 pounds?[/quote]

If they have similar or better genetics than me and had the goal of using that to help with strength as well, uh, yeah. This is about GENETICS, not what ALL PEOPLE should do.

You didn’t know that?

? I didn’t say my goal was to look like a powerlifter. Do some of you just change words around to see how they look on paper?

350

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Bryan Krahn wrote:
I think that sometimes people forget that old school bodybuilders all bulked up as youths, some even getting downright fat, and continued to include bulk up periods during the off-season.

The whole “stay lean all year” thing is a relatively new phenomena, and is a necessary evil just for guys who make money off of being lean and near-camera ready.

Not saying there isn’t a point where fat gets out of hand – it does – but these “4 week bulk/4 week cut” anal retentive things are not ideal for the majority of guys, fitness models and actors notwithstanding. [/quote]

Bryan, man, you are spewing ANATHEMA in these parts.

Love it.

Watch your back, bro… watch your back…[/quote]

Oh don’t get me wrong, staying lean is ideal as you get older or closer to your genetic set point.

But if you’re young, healthy, have lots of free time, full of piss and vinegar, and want to get big – I say push the envelope a bit.

351

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

Wow. Constantly reframing it…[/quote]

Does this mean you can’t do it? You can’t respond on a level above just throwing more insults at me?

Why not respond to the topic? I just really want to see if you have it in you. I want to see if your knowledge runs as deep as your discontent.[/quote]

I insulted you? I think not. I wrote four words: “wow”, “constantly”, “reframing”, and “it”. [/quote]

So you can’t. Thanks for clearing that up. I won’t waste any more time with you then.

352

[quote]Bryan Krahn wrote:
I think that sometimes people forget that old school bodybuilders all bulked up as youths, some even getting downright fat, and continued to include bulk up periods during the off-season.

The whole “stay lean all year” thing is a relatively new phenomena, and is a necessary evil just for guys who make money off of being lean and near-camera ready.

Not saying there isn’t a point where fat gets out of hand – it does – but these “4 week bulk/4 week cut” anal retentive things are not ideal for the majority of guys, fitness models and actors notwithstanding. [/quote]

I’ve also heard top BBers, like Kai Greene, say that the only difference is that they don’t have to lose as much during prep time. He said he deluded himself in thinking that he was gaining any more muscle by bulking up even more in the past. And this past Olympia is the best Kai has ever looked. Excessive bulking can work, it’s just not necessary.

I do agree about the paranoid mini bulks and cuts though.

353

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]Bryan Krahn wrote:
I think that sometimes people forget that old school bodybuilders all bulked up as youths, some even getting downright fat, and continued to include bulk up periods during the off-season.

The whole “stay lean all year” thing is a relatively new phenomena, and is a necessary evil just for guys who make money off of being lean and near-camera ready.

Not saying there isn’t a point where fat gets out of hand – it does – but these “4 week bulk/4 week cut” anal retentive things are not ideal for the majority of guys, fitness models and actors notwithstanding. [/quote]

I’ve also heard top BBers, like Kai Greene, say that the only difference is that they don’t have to lose as much during prep time. He said he deluded himself in thinking that he was gaining any more muscle by bulking up even more in the past. And this past Olympia is the best Kai has ever looked. Excessive bulking can work, it’s just not necessary.

I do agree about the paranoid mini bulks and cuts though.[/quote]

Kai Greene also has about the greatest muscle building potential of any human being on the planet.

I’m speaking more to the typical college guy who thinks he should go on a 12 week cut to show off his gains from 2 years of lifting.

Big difference.

354

[quote]Professor X wrote:

And LOL who has a goal to “look like a powerlifter?” What does that even mean? Powerlifters range from 148 lb skinner types to 300+ lb fat asses and everything in between. So i’ll give you that, you probably looked like a powerlifter out there somewhere.

[/quote]

? I didn’t say my goal was to look like a powerlifter. Do some of you just change words around to see how they look on paper?[/quote]

I didnt say that was your goal. I said WHO has that goal? I quoted you as “look like a powerlifter.” You said “I looked like a powerlifter.” No where was I trying to twist your words.

No lets get back to the point:
What the fuck does “I looked like a powerlifter” mean? And WHO has that goal? Powerlifters range from 148 lb skinnier types to 300 lb fat asses and everything in between.

Were talking about poeple with the goal of getting big AND lean, how is “…looked like a powerlifter” at 300 lbs relevant?

Should someone look like a powerlifter in order to… look more like a bodybuilder?

355

[quote]Bryan Krahn wrote:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]Bryan Krahn wrote:
I think that sometimes people forget that old school bodybuilders all bulked up as youths, some even getting downright fat, and continued to include bulk up periods during the off-season.

The whole “stay lean all year” thing is a relatively new phenomena, and is a necessary evil just for guys who make money off of being lean and near-camera ready.

Not saying there isn’t a point where fat gets out of hand – it does – but these “4 week bulk/4 week cut” anal retentive things are not ideal for the majority of guys, fitness models and actors notwithstanding. [/quote]

I’ve also heard top BBers, like Kai Greene, say that the only difference is that they don’t have to lose as much during prep time. He said he deluded himself in thinking that he was gaining any more muscle by bulking up even more in the past. And this past Olympia is the best Kai has ever looked. Excessive bulking can work, it’s just not necessary.

I do agree about the paranoid mini bulks and cuts though.[/quote]

Kai Greene also has about the greatest muscle building potential of any human being on the planet.

I’m speaking more to the typical college guy who thinks he should go on a 12 week cut to show off his gains from 2 years of lifting.

Big difference.
[/quote]

You were the one that used professional BBers as the example to advocate the traditinal bulk. So by your same logic, the traditional bulk that BBers used to employ wouldn’t work for the guy with typical genes. After all, those guys had world-class genetics.

356

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]Bryan Krahn wrote:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]Bryan Krahn wrote:
I think that sometimes people forget that old school bodybuilders all bulked up as youths, some even getting downright fat, and continued to include bulk up periods during the off-season.

The whole “stay lean all year” thing is a relatively new phenomena, and is a necessary evil just for guys who make money off of being lean and near-camera ready.

Not saying there isn’t a point where fat gets out of hand – it does – but these “4 week bulk/4 week cut” anal retentive things are not ideal for the majority of guys, fitness models and actors notwithstanding. [/quote]

I’ve also heard top BBers, like Kai Greene, say that the only difference is that they don’t have to lose as much during prep time. He said he deluded himself in thinking that he was gaining any more muscle by bulking up even more in the past. And this past Olympia is the best Kai has ever looked. Excessive bulking can work, it’s just not necessary.

I do agree about the paranoid mini bulks and cuts though.[/quote]

Kai Greene also has about the greatest muscle building potential of any human being on the planet.

I’m speaking more to the typical college guy who thinks he should go on a 12 week cut to show off his gains from 2 years of lifting.

Big difference.
[/quote]

You were the one that used professional BBers as the example to advocate the traditinal bulk. So by your same logic, the traditional bulk that BBers used to employ wouldn’t work for the guy with typical genes. After all, those guys had world-class genetics.[/quote]

Sorry amigo, that wasn’t what I said at all. Your logic ain’t connecting with mine!

Anyway, if you’re getting results from a stay lean approach to adding size, then have at it.

If, however, you find yourself looking the same year after year, this would be the first change I’d make.

357

[quote]Bryan Krahn wrote:
10% is no where near contest shape – unless you want to finish in last place.

10% is lean, average, athletic male – visible linea alba (not “in the right light abs”) and usually some clear definition. That’s it.

Basically, for most guys, this is the cut-off from when dieting is relatively painless (if monotonous) and hard/frustrating/life sucking.

Most guys would need at least 8-12 weeks from the 10% point to get winning-shredded.

This, of course, assumes a normal response to dieting (X ain’t Dexter Jackson) and having been there before (makes a difference).

I was perhaps a little generous when I said 15% – remember what I said about internet bodyfat estimates being retarded? – as he is more than likely closer to 18%. But again, this all depends on the percentage formula used. (I always use a 12 site formula.)

Your “no way if natural” argument is a red herring – whether or not drugs are used wasn’t part of the discussion. [/quote]

I have not read the rest of this thread and considering its already 3 more pages I have a good idea that I know which direction it will head…

I just wanted to thank you for your answer. I also laughed at the “no where near contest lean unless you want to come in last place.” Haha very true.

358

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

I didnt say that was your goal. I said WHO has that goal? I quoted you as “look like a powerlifter.” You said “I looked like a powerlifter.” No where was I trying to twist your words.

No lets get back to the point:
What the fuck does “I looked like a powerlifter” mean? And WHO has that goal? Powerlifters range from 148 lb skinnier types to 300 lb fat asses and everything in between.

Were talking about poeple with the goal of getting big AND lean, how is “…looked like a powerlifter” at 300 lbs relevant?

Should someone look like a powerlifter in order to… look more like a bodybuilder?[/quote]

I am not even sure where you are headed with all this, but the very first post in this thread is what I am referring to.

Yes, for most people with EXTREME GOALS IN MUSCULAR SIZE, they will have to go through some period where they do not look ideal.

You seem to be getting hung up on semantics like “look like a powerlifter”. It all boils down to understanding exactly what Kahn wrote, that to get really big often requires some time focusing on JUST that.

359

[quote]Bryan Krahn wrote:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]Bryan Krahn wrote:

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

[quote]Bryan Krahn wrote:
I think that sometimes people forget that old school bodybuilders all bulked up as youths, some even getting downright fat, and continued to include bulk up periods during the off-season.

The whole “stay lean all year” thing is a relatively new phenomena, and is a necessary evil just for guys who make money off of being lean and near-camera ready.

Not saying there isn’t a point where fat gets out of hand – it does – but these “4 week bulk/4 week cut” anal retentive things are not ideal for the majority of guys, fitness models and actors notwithstanding. [/quote]

I’ve also heard top BBers, like Kai Greene, say that the only difference is that they don’t have to lose as much during prep time. He said he deluded himself in thinking that he was gaining any more muscle by bulking up even more in the past. And this past Olympia is the best Kai has ever looked. Excessive bulking can work, it’s just not necessary.

I do agree about the paranoid mini bulks and cuts though.[/quote]

Kai Greene also has about the greatest muscle building potential of any human being on the planet.

I’m speaking more to the typical college guy who thinks he should go on a 12 week cut to show off his gains from 2 years of lifting.

Big difference.
[/quote]

You were the one that used professional BBers as the example to advocate the traditinal bulk. So by your same logic, the traditional bulk that BBers used to employ wouldn’t work for the guy with typical genes. After all, those guys had world-class genetics.[/quote]

Sorry amigo, that wasn’t what I said at all. Your logic ain’t connecting with mine!

Anyway, if you’re getting results from a stay lean approach to adding size, then have at it.

If, however, you find yourself looking the same year after year, this would be the first change I’d make. [/quote]

Old school pro BBers used to bulk, that’s what average guys should do.

Now pro BBers are staying lean year round, but that won’t work for average guys.

You don’t see the disconnect there?

Yes, Kai Greene has elite genetics, that’s why I only compared present Kai to past Kai and nobody else. I mean if the guy looks better than ever and says he didn’t gain any more muscle doing the traditional bulk, doesn’t that have merit worthy of consideration?

BTW, it’s hard to get tone from text alone so please understand I’m not trying to pick a fight, I’m just trying to understand where you are coming from. I respect your opinion and have enjoyed your thoughts in this thread.

360

[quote]super saiyan wrote:

Old school pro BBers used to bulk, that’s what average guys should do.

Now pro BBers are staying lean year round, but that won’t work for average guys.

You don’t see the disconnect there?

Yes, Kai Greene has elite genetics, that’s why I only compared present Kai to past Kai and nobody else. I mean if the guy looks better than ever and says he didn’t gain any more muscle doing the traditional bulk, doesn’t that have merit worthy of consideration?

BTW, it’s hard to get tone from text alone so please understand I’m not trying to pick a fight, I’m just trying to understand where you are coming from. I respect your opinion and have enjoyed your thoughts in this thread.[/quote]

Pros today are on drugs that Sergio Oliva was not on. These drugs used can allow someone to have a very loose diet but still look in ideal shape.

You can not ignore the level of drug use of the average pro today. The average hardcore gynmrat today is using as much or more than the average pro bodybuilder 40-50 years ago.

Yes, many average gym rats got big just like many pros did back then…by bulking up in their youth to build that solid base of mass and then dieting the fat off.