The Ban: Only a Matter of Time...

Nutrition
41

[quote]mica617 wrote:

As for the prior comment about alignment with the religious voters affecting this, I am one of those “religious voters”. My Preacher has never had one sermon against supplements. He is usually too busy preaching about raising your children properly (funny- he never mentioned banning creatine in any of those sermons). You could relate a lot of his sermons to exactly what Prof X is saying about laws parenting children whose parents won’t.

It is not even a concern for the “Religious Community”. Before you make a comment about us Christians being to blame for all the evils of the country, set foot inside a church and know what you are talking about. That is the same advice that I would give legislators ruling on supplements. Do your f-ing homework and stop vilifying something of which you know nothing. [/quote]

I have nothing against the Religious Community (I am a Christian). The religious right are those that choose to poliiticize (sic?) religion and decide how others should live. There are many people out there, who use the guise of religion for their own personal power and profit. Remember, it was Jesus that chased the money-changers from the temple.

42

[quote]vroom wrote:
Zeb,

Until recently, prohormones weren’t illegal. Now they are illegal. It sounds like your only concern is the illegality itself.[/quote]

While that is a concern that is not my main concern.

Are we then to make it leagal for all but pro athletes?

I understand what you are saying. However, generally laws are passed because the general populace wants it that way. All the laws which you are (probably) not very fond of, the majority are indeed very fond of!

We all know how a bill becomes a law. But less is spoken of how we actually get that bill. My opinion and the many opinions of others do in fact enter into it.

Currently the majority of people do not want steroids legalized. If and when that changes then eventually I’m sure that they will be legalized. However, as I stated to another poster, I don’t think that is anytime soon, if at all.

I agree, but there are far worse solutions than making everything legal!

43

[quote]RoadWarrior wrote:

I don’t understand why people are so against taking drugs to enhance performance. If you were sick, would you stay sick rather than use a drug?[/quote]

That’s just it, they are not sick. Using drugs to enhance performance sends the wrong message to our youth who do not have the million dollar coaching staff that the pro players have. Do you want to see 14 year olds on roids? No, of course not, then why have them promoted perhaps legally by the pro players? And don’t say it’s the parents fault as they parents are not with a teen 24/7.

How many kids do you have?

I think this point has been talked about several times. If one has the ability to hit a baseball then the illegal substances make it possible to hit the ball further by enhancing the players strength. Can you imagine Babe Ruth on roids?

Why should someone get credit for breaking his record while using drugs?

[quote]As far as citizens go, why should it be illegal for me to use steroids (under a doctors sup. if necessary) and fully legal for people to shoottheir face full of Botox. It doesn’t add up. And as far as “performance enhancing” drugs, what about Viagra et al?
[/quote]

Again it’s a matter of the sort of society that you want to live in. I know that there are some (perhaps many) body enhancing drugs that cause no ill effects to anyone but the user. Some on the other hand change a persons personality for the worse (over a period of time). Then the question is what business is it of anyone else? I can see your point. However, what business is it of anyone else if you kill yourself? Yet, that is illegal as well. Do you think that people should be allowed to kill themselves? Most young males think that it’s fine…

I think one argument could be made that the drug will eventually cause some sort of physical disease which then in turn will drive up health care costs. Not unlike smoking. However, that is not my reason for not wanting these substances to be legal.

44

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I understand what you are saying. However, generally laws are passed because the general populace wants it that way. All the laws which you are (probably) not very fond of, the majority are indeed very fond of! [/quote]

The majority have also shown time and time again that they are ill-informed when it comes to many of these issues. How many people who you think would actually vote against medically supervised anabolics use do you think have actually researched the issue in any depth at all?

Uh, I agree.

45

[quote]ZEB wrote:
RoadWarrior wrote:

I don’t understand why people are so against taking drugs to enhance performance. If you were sick, would you stay sick rather than use a drug?

That’s just it, they are not sick. Using drugs to enhance performance sends the wrong message to our youth who do not have the million dollar coaching staff that the pro players have. Do you want to see 14 year olds on roids? No, of course not, then why have them promoted perhaps legally by the pro players? And don’t say it’s the parents fault as they parents are not with a teen 24/7.

How many kids do you have?[/quote]

Who cares how many kids he has? If he chooses to NEVER have kids, why does he have to live his life by rules and laws designed to protect some kids of yours that he has never met? Is he a kid?

Shit, take care of your own kids. Believe it or not, but before this popped up in baseball, the shit was available to kids. You not hearing about it doesn’t mean it isn’t out there or that it hasn’t been for decades. That is why you have the job of raising your kids to think the way you want them to think and to hold the same values you hold. Beyond that, quit trying to control everyone else in the country.

46

[quote]Gnostic wrote:
Look, everything is money driven…Do you think they REALLY give a rats ass if we all “supplement” ourselves into an early grave…If that were the case, alcohol and cigs would have been squashed a long time ago. They will find a way to regulate it, like the pharmaceutical idustry, so they can line their already deep pockets. They will do this in the guise of “saving us from ourselves”. Hidden agenda fucks…[/quote]

It’s a guaranteed vote getter. An easy way to looking like you’re “caring” without actually having to give a damn about anybody or understand any issues.

Unfortunately, when it comes to substance control, “ban it” is almost a knee-jerk reaction unless a very powerful industry is involved with counter-interests, because it’s a guaranteed vote getter with the folks back home. And even on the slight chance that it isn’t, it covers your ass to vote against any supplement or foodstuff, because sooner or later, something is going to go wrong somewhere, and one’s political opponents will use it to crucify you.

Safety plus votes from home = just shove it through, and get some air time pontificating about how the issue has managed to morally outrage you somehow. It’s a slam dunk winner.

47

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Secondly, I these guys are sometimes idolized by kids and I think it sends the wrong message. Sure the atheletes know what to take, and how much to take to safe guard their health (well mostly). But the 15 year old kid who sees it has no idea what to take, but will try anything because he knows his hero uses. I know some will say it’s up to the parents to control that…But just like putting porno on TV, why make the parents job more difficult?

I am hoping the experts on child care who have never had children and are still in their 20’s respond to the second one :slight_smile:

Easily. That is what PARENTS are for.

I am beyond sick of the attitude that it is anyone else’s job to raise YOUR kids. We are basically making laws left and right so that grown men and women must help raise your kids and that is retarded. If you don’t want your kids doing something like that, teach them not to. Quit relying on everyone else in the world to be your kid’s role models.[/quote]

Gotta agree with the X-man here. There’s no way to make society perfectly safe for children without turning adults into them. I don’t want to be left with only the options of a child. I want the freedoms and discretion – even the discretion to make mistakes – of an adult. Anything less is just a creepy tyranny disguised as benevolence, which makes it even creepier.

Furthermore, parents should raise their own damn kids in the first place and not look for excuses outside the family to blame family problems on.

And finally, there are things parents can’t control, and life can never be made perfectly safe anyway. It’s foolish for adults to relinquish their freedoms and discretion to chase mirages or security and perfect order. Voluntarily infantilizing ourselves won’t make life perfectly safe, but it will diminish its quality for everyone.

48

[quote]ZEB wrote:

And don’t say it’s the parents fault as they parents are not with a teen 24/7.

How many kids do you have?

[/quote]

I (and a lot of kids I know/knew) broke into my father liquor cabinet and snuck a bunch of his stash for my friends and I when I was a kid.
Given your logic- I shouldn’t have gotten the punishment that I got from my parents. The Govt should have immediately banned alcohol sales to anyone.

I am patiently awaiting an apology from my parents for actually punishing me. Unfotunately, before they apologize, they will have to sue the Govt for forcing them to discipline me rather than inforcing an immediate ban on alcohol.

Thank GOD I had responsible parents…

49

ZEB,

Five years ago, I recall reading an article in Playboy about the rapid increase in teenage steroid use. That was back when baseball was “clean.”

I recognize that many kids have athletes as their heroes. However, I think you are too quick to dismiss the biggest heroes to most kids: their parents. Parents impart their views and opinions to their children, either knowingly or unknowingly. The children of parents who take the time to sit them down and talk to them about drugs and steroids are much more likely to follow their parents advice when they are offered drugs or steroids. So yeah, parents cannot be around all of the time, but they influence is always around. At some point, you have to let your kids make choices and hope that they learned what you taught them. In any case, there are much more harmful things than steroids around (tobacco and alcohol being two of them).

By the way, teenage girls look up to movie starlets and pop singers who are getting plastic surgery done. Many of these plastic surgery techniques have PROVEN health risks that are actually more serious than steroid use. Should the government regulate plastic surgery? Where do we draw the line?

Here is another important thing to note in the area of legislation. When drugs were first outlawed, it was generally agreed upon that it was unconstitutional for the government to legislate what people were allowed to put in their bodies. The reason drugs were able to be outlawed were the secondary effects on society, i.e. increased crime, etc. Health and moral concerns are not the concerns of the goverment except where they concern the broader society as a whole. I don’t believe it is even possible to make an argument with regards to steroids adversely affecting society.

The bottom line for me is that knee jerk, uninformed legislation is never a good answer to any problem.

50

[quote]mica617 wrote:
I (and a lot of kids I know/knew) broke into my father liquor cabinet and snuck a bunch of his stash for my friends and I when I was a kid.
Given your logic- I shouldn’t have gotten the punishment that I got from my parents. The Govt should have immediately banned alcohol sales to anyone.[/quote]

You mean given your interpretation of my logic…lol. Actually, your parents did the right thing. I am for not making steroids available for say 14 year olds. A good (and far more relevant question) should be. What should be the punishment for those who sell illegal steroids to children?

Maybe you better inventory your own logic before you attack mine. Alcohol was and is a legal drug for those who are 21 years or older. Steroids on the other hand are simply illegal. Now take a deep breath and try to understand the difference!

Yes you had very responsible parents. But, even good ones can’t be everywhere and see everything!

51

[quote]toddjacobs13 wrote:
ZEB,

Five years ago, I recall reading an article in Playboy about the rapid increase in teenage steroid use. That was back when baseball was “clean.”[/quote]

Yes, thinking that my comments meant that no teen ever took steroids prior to many pro athletes taking them is a huge stretch of the truth. They took them and will probably continue to take them at some level no matter what the law says. However, when you legitimize something it becomes far more popular. Teens are still going to go out and get drunk too. Should we simply forget about the drinking age? No of course not.

I did not dismiss the parents as one of the best influences on thier children. But why make it harder on the parents by making drugs legal and thus more easily obtained. Bad idea!

I agree, but why make the drugs more prevelant? Are you trying to test the parental relationships? How does that help the family unit? It doesn’t!

Yes, there are far more harmful things. But does it make sense to promote things that are indeed harmful because there are “far more harmful things?” No of course not.

I think that’s a very good question. And it happens to be the age old question. I can’t answer this, however I do know that things always lead to other things. Nothing exists in a vacuum. How can allowing 13 and 14 year old boys (and girls) to use steroids help our society? I would like you to elaborate on this. You have pontificated about how they are not the worst things (agreed). Now tell us how they are helpful.

I think you are again stretching your point. Do you think suicide laws are “moral” laws? If so how come they are on the books? How come you cannot visit a whore legally, in most parts of the country? Is that a “moral” law. Why can’t you slice off your left hand? It’s your hand…dang these moralists! LOL

I agree neither is leaving the choice in the hands of a 13 or 14 year old uninformed child a good idea…

52

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Yes you had very responsible parents. But, even good ones can’t be everywhere and see everything!

[/quote]

…nor should they. That would be what all of that child raisin’ is for, to be their guide when you are not around. Why is your desire to regulate the world and not simply your own personal priorities?

53

Zeb,

How did kids get into this argument? I am talking about people over 18 being able to buy performance enhancing substances. If they want to make Andro illegal (they have) then don’t be hypocritical make Viagra et. al. illegal and watch the masses come unglued. See what happens what Suzy flat-face can’t get her Botox injection. She is shooting chemicals into her body same as juice.

54

[quote]RoadWarrior wrote:
ZEB wrote:

First of all the are breaking records of guys who played 50 years ago and had no idea what a steroid is.

This is the same argument people have been making about the Indy 500 for years. Rather than change the track to handle higher speeds, they want to throttle back the cars.

Vince Lombardi’s players may not have had access to steroids but players aren’t wearing leather helmets either. Not allowing pro atheletes to use steroids is like outlawing speed equipment.

Where would lance Armstrong be without a Carbon Fiber frame. The original bike racers rode heavy steel frame bikes. Comparisons can go on and on.

Pharmaceutical companies want the supplement guys out, they don’t want this market, its too small but they don’t want anyone else to have it either. The current administrations love affair with the religious right doesn’t help either.

They can’t do anything about the “drug” problem so they go for the easy target. Its easier to go after an athelete than a crack dealer, the athelete won’t shoot back (except on tabloid TV).[/quote]

Road Warrior
I agree a little. I think our government lacks the common sense to be involved in the supplement controversy.
I think when it comes to sports they should be regulated by the respective sports organizations .Which they are not doing. If a player is excelling at a sport by using steroids and I or my son had to compete with the user the only solution would be to become a user as well.

55

[quote]RoadWarrior wrote:
Zeb,

How did kids get into this argument? I am talking about people over 18 being able to buy performance enhancing substances. If they want to make Andro illegal (they have) then don’t be hypocritical make Viagra et. al. illegal and watch the masses come unglued. See what happens what Suzy flat-face can’t get her Botox injection. She is shooting chemicals into her body same as juice.[/quote]

When something becomes more “available” for adults it also becomes more available for children.

I like that: “suzy flat face” LOL…

Are you making a claim that steroids have the same effect on people as botox (which I am not promoting by the way)?

56

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

If a player is excelling at a sport by using steroids and I or my son had to compete with the user the only solution would be to become a user as well.[/quote]

BINGO! And that is only part of the reason that I am against such use!

Well said.

57

[quote]ZEB wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

If a player is excelling at a sport by using steroids and I or my son had to compete with the user the only solution would be to become a user as well.

BINGO! And that is only part of the reason that I am against such use!

Well said.

It’s not the only solution, you could also try to go and ban the substance or try even a little harder at what you do or just plain out quit and call the other person a cheater for trying to be better than you.

58

Zeb,

I don’t think you have much basis in fact when you adhere to the belief that illegal substances are less available to children or others.

Drugs, major drugs, have been illegal for eons now, but they have always been available. These things, including prohibition, have never been effectively restricted.

Anyway, to get back a ways, things aren’t made illegal purely because people prefer it that way. They are usually made illegal because people believe there is a harm to society if they are available for use.

When society misunderstands the issues involved and makes something illegal, such as ephedra, it does a disservice to itself. It limits consumer choice and freedoms.

What happens when the government makes things illegal, that society greatly desires, is that it creates a black market. Things are done in secret, without supervision, without anyone knowing. This is the most dangerous way to be involved with a substance.

It also creates an opportunity for criminal profit, which has a large negative effect on society!

So, as we have had, there still is, and will remain to be, a black market in contraband steriods. It isn’t going to go away, ever, no matter how illegal they are.

My point, is that if people are going to make the choice to use steroids, at least let them have access to medical supervision so they can do so safetly. Why should they not be able to make decisions concering their own bodies (outside of sporting regulations).

I would suggest that most children eventually get to an age where they will try illegal things. If you have raised them with some semblance of a brain they will make it through that period without serious issues – as has happened with most of the adults in the world today.

You place too much import on the word “illegal” as if it infers some type of illicitness all on its own. There are plenty of legal things that are very bad, and illegal things that really aren’t very bad at all.

When you ask the government to look after us in this way, thinking you and the government know better than the rest of us, you again show your hidden liberal colors. This is happening more and more often Zeb.

59

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Are you making a claim that steroids have the same effect on people as botox (which I am not promoting by the way)?

[/quote]

Not per se, but what is the difference if I take steroids to build a bigger physique and combat against the years and women using Botox for a younger face or silicone to enhance natural inadequacies?

60

[quote]ZEB wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

If a player is excelling at a sport by using steroids and I or my son had to compete with the user the only solution would be to become a user as well.

BINGO! And that is only part of the reason that I am against such use!

Well said.
[/quote]

I think this is an important point.