The Ban: Only a Matter of Time...

What the hoo-hah are we going to do when protein powder inevitably gets it? Creatine is on borrowed time already.

On the plus side, multi’s are probably safe, and most of the other T-Nation supplements probably fly under the radar of their enemies.

[quote]mindeffer01 wrote:
How can politicians do this? Easily. The have no integrity, and they consider ethical decisions just a minor stumbling block to the ultimate goal, re-election.

I was taught that an ethical decision is one that takes into consideration all of the aspects of a conundrum, or at least two sides. It seems that the main tools of politicains these days are faulty conclusions, public outcry, fear, and hyperbole.

Ethical thinking doesn’t enter the picture until it can be bastardized into the appearance of “the greater good”. Throw a couple of teenage suicides falsley attributed to steriods into the mix, and you have a witch hunt. Add the general public being fed a bunch of propaganda from an ill informed media, and you have a lynch mob.

Scare them into thinking that this will happen to their children, and you have a scared stupid angry lynch mob that think that performance enhancing supplements of any kind are A Menace To Our Children. This leads to the conclusion that “for the greater good” supplements should be Banned!, and whoever wrote that legislation is a Dragonslayer of the highest order and should definitely be re-elected.

It’s bullshit.(read) Political scamboogery at its finest.
IMHO.[/quote]

Fear has always been a tactic of government-created propaganda, whether it be run under a fascist, communist or even a democratic politico-economic system. Perhaps the most telling observation in government’s utilization of fear as a propagandist tool is exemplified in a quote made by one of the most nefarious individuals in history.

“The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation.”
—Adolph Hitler (Mein Kampf)

While Hitler may be an overused counter-argument it nevertheless makes a revealing statement about where the mindset of government lies, whether of the rightist or leftist variety. Ignorance may be an even worse sin than malevolance.

The basic tools of manipulation.

I think they should leave the supplement industry alone! Most of the stuff sold in “health food” stores is far and away better for you than say…anything Pepsi has ever produced.

However, I have a few problems with profesional athletes taking roids:

First of all the are breaking records of guys who played 50 years ago and had no idea what a steroid is. Yes you could put an astriks by their name, but that changes things for the worse in my opinion.

Secondly, I these guys are sometimes idolized by kids and I think it sends the wrong message. Sure the atheletes know what to take, and how much to take to safe guard their health (well mostly). But the 15 year old kid who sees it has no idea what to take, but will try anything because he knows his hero uses. I know some will say it’s up to the parents to control that…But just like putting porno on TV, why make the parents job more difficult?

I am hoping the experts on child care who have never had children and are still in their 20’s respond to the second one :slight_smile:

some people I know believe that creatine is like steroids

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Secondly, I these guys are sometimes idolized by kids and I think it sends the wrong message. Sure the atheletes know what to take, and how much to take to safe guard their health (well mostly). But the 15 year old kid who sees it has no idea what to take, but will try anything because he knows his hero uses. I know some will say it’s up to the parents to control that…But just like putting porno on TV, why make the parents job more difficult?

I am hoping the experts on child care who have never had children and are still in their 20’s respond to the second one :)[/quote]

Easily. That is what PARENTS are for.

I am beyond sick of the attitude that it is anyone else’s job to raise YOUR kids. We are basically making laws left and right so that grown men and women must help raise your kids and that is retarded. If you don’t want your kids doing something like that, teach them not to. Quit relying on everyone else in the world to be your kid’s role models.

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/05/36/features-kotler.php

some of this article deals with why steroids were vilified in the first place. It’s a little lengthy though.

After seeing Jose Canseco on some news talk show last week I would have to say that the ignorance is not limited to the younger crowd. As a self imposed spokesman for steriods, he could use some work.His claim that some steriods are very long lasting and leave a signature for many years to come was questionable at best. Makes me wonder if I would pop posative for andro when my last round of MAG-10 was over a year ago(just kiddin).
As far as a parents job being hard enough, well if you work hard at it you will probably get good results. A lot of it is up to the kid though. By the time steriods became available to me I was able to make the decision as to whether or not I wanted to use them. I chose not to. Not because I didn’t want to win, but out of a sense of fair play. Other guys in my region did use and were successfull, but eventualy disqualified from olympic competition. Thats a chance they took and a price they paid.

[quote]oboffill wrote:
vroom wrote:
What annoys me is that it shouldn’t matter whether or not he decided to take an educated risk with respect to his own health and development.

Why does society have to intefere with the choices and behavior of others on such a widespread scale?

Don’t limit the damned access to all kinds of substances! If you are concerned about misuse, then force some type of awareness test or place controls on the distribution of the substance.

Barring serious health issues that cannot be alleviated with careful protocols or serious influences on crime and productivity, there is no reason for society to care about these issues.

It should be our right to put things not proven to be dangerous to soceity into our own bodies. Just like we can wear jewelry, piercings and tatoos. Why the hell is the government getting involved in our personal decisions and how the hell do we stop it?

I’m a web developer by trade. I’d happily donate time to build and manage a web site containing truthful information about steroids and supplements and why they should be legal choices for informed individuals of appropriate age.

Vroom,
You are bringing the viewpoint of a smart, decent, rational, responsible human being to a system where none of that matters. They work by finding one issue and having everybody agree that it is the cause of the world’s problems, ban it, call it a day. Science, what’s that?[/quote]

Don’t forget the big payoffs to companies who will be liscensed to script supplements. This is the crux of the matter. It really is us against them.

[quote]mindeffer01 wrote:
After seeing Jose Canseco on some news talk show last week I would have to say that the ignorance is not limited to the younger crowd. As a self imposed spokesman for steriods, he could use some work.His claim that some steriods are very long lasting and leave a signature for many years to come was questionable at best. Makes me wonder if I would pop posative for andro when my last round of MAG-10 was over a year ago(just kiddin).
[/quote]

well, don’t expect conseco to be entirely accurate, though i think most of what he says is accurate, but only to the extent that it serves his agenda and the rest is half accurate frickn spin for his agenda. his agenda now btw is not to show us the light but rather settle a score w/ baseball under the guise of showing us the light.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I think they should leave the supplement industry alone! Most of the stuff sold in “health food” stores is far and away better for you than say…anything Pepsi has ever produced. :)[/quote]

Couldn’t agree more.

But where do you draw a line? For example, anyone taking a synthetic testosterone for the purposes of enhancing performance most likely falls in the “unacceptable” category to the majority - I certainly agree with that.

But what about someone who has measurable amounts of what appears to be a testosterone precursor? Given the multitude of chemicals that we ingest (man-made and naturally occuring), it’s not unreasonable to expect to find a “precursor” in ones blood. Also, the definition of a precursor is vague - a chemist can take it back to rudmentary bulding blocks. Who’s to decide what is/is-not a potential precursor (or pre-precursor). The government? Why don’t I feel good about that…

I can quickly see an issue of deciding what’s acceptable and what’s not in terms of compounds in an athletes blood. You can find a steroid “precursor” (or its precursor, etc.) in probably hundreds of herbs, plants etc. that are sold as components of highly legitimate and valuable supplements.

The debate of 'roids and athletes will never end because of this uncertainty. Unfortunately, the alternative-medicine and supplement service providers will be the casualties. They will get squeezed and regulated until there’s nothing you can legally buy unless it’s made by a large phramaceutical company. :frowning:

More sinisterly, this is of course in the interests of the pharmaceutical companies (they don’t like “natural supplements” as they don’t make them!). Sooner or later, I truly expect even bloody vitamins will be regulated because of “health risks” - unless we peasants somehow revolt. Guess which way the pharmaceutical lobbyists are suggesting government goes?

Some argue they already have the FDA thinking that “only a drug can cure a disease” - it’s not hard to see an extension: “only a drug can supplement ones diet”. :frowning:

Cheerfully (or maybe not),

WiZlon

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Don’t forget the big payoffs to companies who will be liscensed to script supplements. This is the crux of the matter. It really is us against them.[/quote]

so what to do about it other than bitch on the internet that creatine’s now illegal ?

[quote]WiZlon wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I think they should leave the supplement industry alone! Most of the stuff sold in “health food” stores is far and away better for you than say…anything Pepsi has ever produced. :slight_smile:

Couldn’t agree more.

However, I have a few problems with profesional athletes taking roids:

But where do you draw a line? For example, anyone taking a synthetic testosterone for the purposes of enhancing performance most likely falls in the “unacceptable” category to the majority - I certainly agree with that.

But what about someone who has measurable amounts of what appears to be a testosterone precursor? Given the multitude of chemicals that we ingest (man-made and naturally occuring), it’s not unreasonable to expect to find a “precursor” in ones blood. Also, the definition of a precursor is vague - a chemist can take it back to rudmentary bulding blocks. Who’s to decide what is/is-not a potential precursor (or pre-precursor). The government? Why don’t I feel good about that…

I can quickly see an issue of deciding what’s acceptable and what’s not in terms of compounds in an athletes blood. You can find a steroid “precursor” (or its precursor, etc.) in probably hundreds of herbs, plants etc. that are sold as components of highly legitimate and valuable supplements.

The debate of 'roids and athletes will never end because of this uncertainty. Unfortunately, the alternative-medicine and supplement service providers will be the casualties. They will get squeezed and regulated until there’s nothing you can legally buy unless it’s made by a large phramaceutical company. :frowning:

More sinisterly, this is of course in the interests of the pharmaceutical companies (they don’t like “natural supplements” as they don’t make them!). Sooner or later, I truly expect even bloody vitamins will be regulated because of “health risks” - unless we peasants somehow revolt. Guess which way the pharmaceutical lobbyists are suggesting government goes?

Some argue they already have the FDA thinking that “only a drug can cure a disease” - it’s not hard to see an extension: “only a drug can supplement ones diet”. :frowning:

Cheerfully (or maybe not),

WiZlon[/quote]

Yes, I think you make a good point. A line has to be dawn and then the pro athletes have to stick with it. If they don’t then extreme fines and long suspensions should be the punishment. However, the line should be quite clear as you suggest.

This, again is not just for the many historical records in sport, but to set a good example for the many teens who worship these guys and want to do as they do. There needs to be a line drawn for them as well as ttens can be very impresionable.

[quote]DON D1ESEL wrote:
What the hoo-hah are we going to do when protein powder inevitably gets it? Creatine is on borrowed time already.
[/quote]

Like hell! with Biotest supplements recently being compared to amphetamines, who do you think the mothers action groups are going to side with? While i completely agree with Biotest that the supplements are great and safe, that comparison alone would create a kneejerk “drug war” response.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

First of all the are breaking records of guys who played 50 years ago and had no idea what a steroid is.

[/quote]

This is the same argument people have been making about the Indy 500 for years. Rather than change the track to handle higher speeds, they want to throttle back the cars.

Vince Lombardi’s players may not have had access to steroids but players aren’t wearing leather helmets either. Not allowing pro atheletes to use steroids is like outlawing speed equipment.

Where would lance Armstrong be without a Carbon Fiber frame. The original bike racers rode heavy steel frame bikes. Comparisons can go on and on.

Pharmaceutical companies want the supplement guys out, they don’t want this market, its too small but they don’t want anyone else to have it either. The current administrations love affair with the religious right doesn’t help either.

They can’t do anything about the “drug” problem so they go for the easy target. Its easier to go after an athelete than a crack dealer, the athelete won’t shoot back (except on tabloid TV).

[quote]RoadWarrior wrote:
This is the same argument people have been making about the Indy 500 for years. Rather than change the track to handle higher speeds, they want to throttle back the cars.

Vince Lombardi’s players may not have had access to steroids but players aren’t wearing leather helmets either. Not allowing pro atheletes to use steroids is like outlawing speed equipment.[/quote]

Keep in mind we are not talking about equipment. We are talking about adding drugs to the human body to enhance performance and I’m against it!

Again you are mentioning equipment. I am for any type of equipment change that will make a player better, or safer (in the case of helmets) etc.

You are going to have to show some sort of proof that attracting religious voters will lead to a ban on say vitams. I think you are fishing on this one…

In one sense there is no difference. They are both using illegal drugs. Of course that’s where the comparison ends. But, making body enhancing drugs legal is a step in the wrong direction. In fact, the supplement industry, if they wanted to play it smart, should distance themselves from the various illegal body enhancement drugs and tout the many health benefits of suppelements

Like you I want the government to keep their hands off the supplement industry. Howeever, I think body enhancing illegal drugs is quite another matter! That’s one pandoras box that needs to be kept as tightly shut as possible. And trust me, no matter how many posts you and I waste on the topic there will be no legalization of any body enhancing drug in our lifetimes, so don’t worry to much about it.

Zeb,

Until recently, prohormones weren’t illegal. Now they are illegal. It sounds like your only concern is the illegality itself.

Anyway, I can understand your concern with respect to public figures, such as athletes, but I cannot understand with respect to the average citizen that makes an informed choice.

Your opinion on the matter, unless a user is harmful to society in some way, should not enter into the picture at all. This seems to be one of the problems in the world these days, everyone thinks what they prefer should actually matter to other people.

There are better solutions than making everything illegal.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Zeb,

Until recently, prohormones weren’t illegal. Now they are illegal. It sounds like your only concern is the illegality itself.

Anyway, I can understand your concern with respect to public figures, such as athletes, but I cannot understand with respect to the average citizen that makes an informed choice.

Your opinion on the matter, unless a user is harmful to society in some way, should not enter into the picture at all. This seems to be one of the problems in the world these days, everyone thinks what they prefer should actually matter to other people.

There are better solutions than making everything illegal.[/quote]

Good post. I think it also comes down to control. I think people who think like that get off on trying to control society in some way.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Keep in mind we are not talking about equipment. We are talking about adding drugs to the human body to enhance performance and I’m against it!

[/quote]

I don’t understand why people are so against taking drugs to enhance performance. If you were sick, would you stay sick rather than use a drug? Andro used ot be legal. Now it is illegal, if I take Andro do you really think I can hit a baseball like Mark Maguire? Yes, he is stronger but that has little (IMO) to do with his record, if not all big hitters could take Andro and be like him.

As far as citizens go, why should it be illegal for me to use steroids (under a doctors sup. if necessary) and fully legal for people to shoottheir face full of Botox. It doesn’t add up. And as far as “performance enhancing” drugs, what about Viagra et al?

[quote]vroom wrote:
Zeb,

Until recently, prohormones weren’t illegal. Now they are illegal. It sounds like your only concern is the illegality itself.

Anyway, I can understand your concern with respect to public figures, such as athletes, but I cannot understand with respect to the average citizen that makes an informed choice.

Your opinion on the matter, unless a user is harmful to society in some way, should not enter into the picture at all. This seems to be one of the problems in the world these days, everyone thinks what they prefer should actually matter to other people.

There are better solutions than making everything illegal.[/quote]

That’s the point that I always try to make. This shouldn’t even come down to legality of the average citizen.
If you want to be a pro athlete, you forfeit your right to take perfomance enhancing substances due to the unfair advatage it gives you IN YOUR FIELD.

A player on steroids is like a Nascar driver being allowed to race without a restrictor plate while the rest of the field must use them. For the average guy (me for example), there is NO steroid out there that will make me a better engineer than the competition and allow me to get more/bigger contracts than my competitor.

Also, if you don’t want your kids on steroids, TALK TO THEM. Be a PARENT, and raise them so that they know the dangers.
As for the prior comment about alignment with the religious voters affecting this, I am one of those “religious voters”. My Preacher has never had one sermon against supplements. He is usually too busy preaching about raising your children properly (funny- he never mentioned banning creatine in any of those sermons). You could relate a lot of his sermons to exactly what Prof X is saying about laws parenting children whose parents won’t.

It is not even a concern for the “Religious Community”. Before you make a comment about us Christians being to blame for all the evils of the country, set foot inside a church and know what you are talking about. That is the same advice that I would give legislators ruling on supplements. Do your f-ing homework and stop vilifying something of which you know nothing.