Any woman can abort her pregnancy within a certain time frame. The potential of a fetus is obviously irrelevant to the law so it is irrelevant to this discussion.
Cortes and Nards, how do you scientifically define a human? Assuming the theory of evolution is correct, what would you call the first known humans parents?
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
[quote]Nards wrote:
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
[quote]Nards wrote:
Yeah…I’m not Christian I’ll mention again, but I must say I never understood the distinction in trimesters thing.
What does it matter how much a little pile of cells looks and acts like human as we know it out of the womb?
It’s an undeniable fact that once the ovum is fertilized, it will over time grow inside the woman and pop out and be a human being.
I think too many people turned 18, went to college, knew that they considered themselves more of an intellectual rather than a beer-drinking frat boy, checked with their buddies about which bands the forward-thinking types listened to etc. and what political things they believed in and just ran with it.
I mean what kind of chicks are you going to pick up in college by being against abortion? I think for many it became a thing like war in the Middle East. Who the fuck would be “for” it? No one! If someone brings it up you of course say war sucks. So since as a college boy I’m most likely never going to have to worry about it (unless it happens to some girl I accidentally knock up) then why the hell not save a lot of grief and just get on the intellectual’s and the majority of the women’s side and be for it and look like a modern smart guy???
[/quote]
In the interest of using unrelated things, let’s try this:
I buy some land and decide to build a house, at what point in the process is it a house?
I buy the land.
I put down a foundation.
I frame the house
I run in plumbing and electric
I put up a roof
I put up walls, floors and fixtures
I think it is funny that you would say that pro-choice folks got that way by trying to get laid in college, I guess you are telling me that the pro-life crowd is made up of high school graduates (it is after all a sort of terminal degree) virgins.
[/quote]
First, I don’t like using weasel words like pro-choice and pro-life. Better to say what it is, pro-abortion and anti-abortion.
Secondly, a house doesn’t build itself once you put a little house “seed” in the ground.
If you put a house seed in the ground and then it started growing and after a few weeks you decided you don’t want the house someone would say “Why did you put the seed in? You wasted what was going to be a pretty good house!”
[/quote]
Nards,
Okay We’ll use the non-weasel words:
Pro-Choice and Anti-Abortion, you are assuming that being pro-choice = pro-abortion, but in 90% of the pro-choice folks that is simply not true, they don’t choose abortion, I have 2 kids, if I were pro-abortion I would have none, instead I am all for allowing a woman to make her own choices without assuming that I know what is best for her.
As for the house analogy I think that your answer is pretty interesting: "“Why did you put the seed in? You wasted what was going to be a pretty good house!” First of all you state that it “was going to be” a pretty nice house, you acknowledge that it is not a house yet, but you think in the future that it might be. And secondly, the assumption that you somehow know how the house would turn out is pretty flawed, if I put in a foundation who’s to say that I don’t screw up the plumbing or electric or[/quote]
Here is a simpler analogy than the house. In the game mouse trap if you turn the crank a bunch of things will happen before the cage falls and the mouse is trapped. If you don’t interrupt, the moment after you turn the crank is the mouse trapped? No, some other stuff needs to happen first but if you don’t do anything it will eventually be trapped.
[quote]Nards wrote:
“Why did you put the seed in? You wasted what was going to be a pretty good house!”
[/quote]
Aha! A solution. Don’t plant a seed! Wear a condom. You realize that this would virtually solve the problem . . . if all men except those hoping to procreate wore a condom every time they had sex.
Let me say this . . . all of you anti-abortion males . . . I hope that you are for education and accessible birth control for all.
In your opinion, is the education of sex adequate for the United States of America?
[quote]kpsnap wrote: Aha! A solution. Don’t plant a seed! Wear a condom. You realize that this would virtually solve the problem . . . if all men except those hoping to procreate wore a condom every time they had sex.
Let me say this . . . all of you anti-abortion males . . . I hope that you are for education and accessible birth control for all.[/quote]
Life is an amazing gift; you are doing nothing but trivializing the spectacular process, one that needs no interference from anyone.
You need the government to tell you what is OK to do? Slavery, Japanese internment camps, public hangings, lack of women’s rights: These were all acceptable until people stood up for what is right and just. America allows for abortion throughout the entire gestational period so your last sentence is irrelevant
How do you classify a developed brain?
[quote]kpsnap wrote:
[quote]Nards wrote:
“Why did you put the seed in? You wasted what was going to be a pretty good house!”
[/quote]
Aha! A solution. Don’t plant a seed! Wear a condom. You realize that this would virtually solve the problem . . . if all men except those hoping to procreate wore a condom every time they had sex.
Let me say this . . . all of you anti-abortion males . . . I hope that you are for education and accessible birth control for all.[/quote]
No, no, no, that’s the parents’ job and I’m damned if I’m gonna pay for someone else’s birth-control. That’s my religious right and I’m claiming it.
There are better ways of reducing the number of abortions than making abortion illegal.
Ways that do not infringe on women’s rights.
But for some reason the men on PWI who are staunch anti-abortion won’t listen to reason.
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
In your opinion, is the education of sex adequate for the United States of America?
[/quote]
I think this is largely a parental role.
However, my daughter just completed “Growing and Changing” via the public school system. There was mention of how to get pregnant (obviously) and all the diseases one could get, but no mention of birth control! To me, that’s an egregious oversight.
I also have an issue with those who push abstinence rather than educating youth about birth control and making it accessible.
We agree completely on the parents role. Parents need to be responsible for their children.
The question then becomes one of what to do when the parents won’t discuss with their children, whatever their excuse would be.
[quote]kpsnap wrote: I think this is largely a parental role.
However, my daughter just completed “Growing and Changing” via the public school system. There was mention of how to get pregnant (obviously) and all the diseases one could get, but no mention of birth control! To me, that’s an egregious oversight.
I also have an issue with those who push abstinence rather than educating youth about birth control and making it accessible. [/quote]
[quote]kpsnap wrote:
[quote]Nards wrote:
“Why did you put the seed in? You wasted what was going to be a pretty good house!”
[/quote]
Aha! A solution. Don’t plant a seed! Wear a condom. You realize that this would virtually solve the problem . . . if all men except those hoping to procreate wore a condom every time they had sex.
Let me say this . . . all of you anti-abortion males . . . I hope that you are for education and accessible birth control for all.[/quote]
How about you answer one or two of our questions instead of your endless cowardly drive-by cliched talking points? I’ve asked the same question two, maybe as many as three times, directly, to you now and you have bravely run away each time. Will you do it again this time?
I suppose you won’t “remember” the question I asked you, too. Right? I’ll have to type it one more time?
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]kpsnap wrote:
[quote]Nards wrote:
“Why did you put the seed in? You wasted what was going to be a pretty good house!”
[/quote]
Aha! A solution. Don’t plant a seed! Wear a condom. You realize that this would virtually solve the problem . . . if all men except those hoping to procreate wore a condom every time they had sex.
Let me say this . . . all of you anti-abortion males . . . I hope that you are for education and accessible birth control for all.[/quote]
No, no, no, that’s the parents’ job and I’m damned if I’m gonna pay for someone else’s birth-control. That’s my religious right and I’m claiming it.
There are better ways of reducing the number of abortions than making abortion illegal.
Ways that do not infringe on women’s rights.
But for some reason the men on PWI who are staunch anti-abortion won’t listen to reason.[/quote]
Right, because those ways have been working so well since the decriminalization of abortion.
I have numbers. You want to compare?
My only problem with the elective surgery: Abortion is the slaughter of an innocent child.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
No, no, no, that’s the parents’ job and I’m damned if I’m gonna pay for someone else’s birth-control. That’s my religious right and I’m claiming it.
There are better ways of reducing the number of abortions than making abortion illegal.
Ways that do not infringe on women’s rights.
But for some reason the men on PWI who are staunch anti-abortion won’t listen to reason.[/quote]
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
How do you classify a developed brain?
[/quote]
And, if I may:
Watch this get ignored.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]kpsnap wrote:
[quote]Nards wrote:
“Why did you put the seed in? You wasted what was going to be a pretty good house!”
[/quote]
Aha! A solution. Don’t plant a seed! Wear a condom. You realize that this would virtually solve the problem . . . if all men except those hoping to procreate wore a condom every time they had sex.
Let me say this . . . all of you anti-abortion males . . . I hope that you are for education and accessible birth control for all.[/quote]
No, no, no, that’s the parents’ job and I’m damned if I’m gonna pay for someone else’s birth-control. That’s my religious right and I’m claiming it.
There are better ways of reducing the number of abortions than making abortion illegal.
Ways that do not infringe on women’s rights.
But for some reason the men on PWI who are staunch anti-abortion won’t listen to reason.[/quote]
Right, because those ways have been working so well since the decriminalization of abortion.
I have numbers. You want to compare?
[/quote]
It works for us.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
How do you classify a developed brain?
[/quote]
And, if I may:
Watch this get ignored. [/quote]
I have kneedragger on ignore, no surprises there.
But the question is stupid. Honestly, if you don’t know what it means to have a sufficiently developed brain as an indication of being human then I’d suggest you try lobotomy and see for yourself.
[in respons to kneedragger btw, not directed at you personally Cortes]
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
How do you classify a developed brain?
[/quote]
And, if I may:
Watch this get ignored. [/quote]
I have kneedragger on ignore, no surprises there.
But the question is stupid. Honestly, if you don’t know what it means to have a sufficiently developed brain as an indication of being human then I’d suggest you try lobotomy and see for yourself.
[in respons to kneedragger btw, not directed at you personally Cortes][/quote]
Should we kill people with severe forms of smooth brain? Should we kill those with just a brain stem? Should we kill the mentally challenged? If so, what criteria are there to decide who is and isn’t mentally challenged enough to kill? Brain scans? Mental acuity tests?
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
I have kneedragger on ignore, no surprises there.
But the question is stupid. Honestly, if you don’t know what it means to have a sufficiently developed brain as an indication of being human then I’d suggest you try lobotomy and see for yourself.
[in respons to kneedragger btw, not directed at you personally Cortes][/quote]
Should we kill people with severe forms of smooth brain? Should we kill those with just a brain stem? Should we kill the mentally challenged? If so, what criteria are there to decide who is and isn’t mentally challenged enough to kill? Brain scans? Mental acuity tests?[/quote]
If a person is braindead and this person would not survive without medical apparatus, I’d be in favor of a natural death.
But these people have already been born. These questions don’t support your position as they do not pertain to abortion.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
I have kneedragger on ignore, no surprises there.
But the question is stupid. Honestly, if you don’t know what it means to have a sufficiently developed brain as an indication of being human then I’d suggest you try lobotomy and see for yourself.
[in respons to kneedragger btw, not directed at you personally Cortes][/quote]
Should we kill people with severe forms of smooth brain? Should we kill those with just a brain stem? Should we kill the mentally challenged? If so, what criteria are there to decide who is and isn’t mentally challenged enough to kill? Brain scans? Mental acuity tests?[/quote]
If a person is braindead and this person would not survive without medical apparatus, I’d be in favor of a natural death.
But these people have already been born. These questions don’t support your position as they do not pertain to abortion.[/quote]
So if we grant these people personhood and the rights associated with it, why don’t we apply those same principles to a zygote or fetus in the first trimester?