This is actually the continuation of kneedragger’s previous abortion thread that can be found here
Sorry, kneedragger, I just happened to be the next poster up when the thread finally reached 1126 posts and locked out and I couldn’t reply to the posts I wanted to.
Anyway, let’s continue the discussion here.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
So anyways I would like to hear what the other pro-lifers in here think - Tribulus, Cortes and Sloth (if you’re still here):
What exactly do you want to see happen? If abortion is made illegal, what penalty should a woman who receive for consenting to an abortion? [/quote]
This is a very good question.
My personal opinion is that the abortionist (the person performing the abortion, that is) should receive the most severe punishment. This should massively reduce the number of abortions overall, pretty much literally overnight from the time the law goes into effect. The punishment should be the same as for premeditated murder. The abortionist is no different than a hit man, a specialized one. No leniency whatsoever. Life in prison sounds good to me.
I’m honestly not sure about the woman herself. Do I think she, personally, should be punished? Yes. However, the problem arises that, every time a woman has a miscarriage, she suddenly becomes a murder suspect. Is she now subject to possible criminal charges? Invasive inspections of her body by the state to determine whether or not a crime has been committed? I can only see that ending badly, possibly badly enough that it actually results in a repeal of the law preventing abortions again.
I would rather let go the odd woman who murdered her child and curtail the vast majority of abortions by focusing upon the people who perform the acts, the abortionists themselves.
However, I would like to hear more about this. It’s a topic that certainly has not received much treatment here, which is rare.
[quote][quote][quote]Makavali wrote:
Cortes wrote:
So I’ll ask it for a third time now: Just when, exactly, does a conceived human become a human being?[/quote]
Simply put, I DON’T KNOW AND NEITHER DO YOU. I choose to personally err on the side of caution and assume at conception, but as that’s a pretty big assumption, I’m unwilling to tell people what they should think about abortion.[/quote]
Really ?
That’s an easy question though.
“Human” has no objective, universal, scientific meaning besides “a member of the homo sapiens specie”.
Is a fetus a specimen of the homo sapiens specie ?
-Answer : yes
How do we know ?
-DNA test will show it.
“Being” has no objective, universal, scientific meaning besides “an organism”.
Is a fetus an organism ?
-answer : yes
How do we know ?
-It is a contiguous living system. It manifests growth, development, an eukaryotic organization, response to stimuli, and it maintains its own homeostasis.
A zygote is therefore an human being from the moment of conception.
That or “human being” becomes a vague, subjective, philosophical expression.
IE : something we will no more be able to protect effectively.
Not only in the case of zygotes but in many other cases too.[/quote]
Heh, what he said. (^^)b
The above quoted but not attributed was written by kamui, btw, I’m not about to go back and start messing with quote tags.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
So anyways I would like to hear what the other pro-lifers in here think - Tribulus, Cortes and Sloth (if you’re still here):
What exactly do you want to see happen? If abortion is made illegal, what penalty should a woman who receive for consenting to an abortion? [/quote]
This is a very good question.
My personal opinion is that the abortionist (the person performing the abortion, that is) should receive the most severe punishment. This should massively reduce the number of abortions overall, pretty much literally overnight from the time the law goes into effect. The punishment should be the same as for premeditated murder. The abortionist is no different than a hit man, a specialized one. No leniency whatsoever. Life in prison sounds good to me.
I’m honestly not sure about the woman herself. Do I think she, personally, should be punished? Yes. However, the problem arises that, every time a woman has a miscarriage, she suddenly becomes a murder suspect. Is she now subject to possible criminal charges? Invasive inspections of her body by the state to determine whether or not a crime has been committed? I can only see that ending badly, possibly badly enough that it actually results in a repeal of the law preventing abortions again.
I would rather let go the odd woman who murdered her child and curtail the vast majority of abortions by focusing upon the people who perform the acts, the abortionists themselves.
However, I would like to hear more about this. It’s a topic that certainly has not received much treatment here, which is rare.
[/quote]
The Church has always held that the woman is the second victim of abortion. The doctor is, of course, in normal circumstances, culpable for his actions. Also those who helped her with the abortion have some degree of culpability; that is a different matter though. We are talking about the doctor and mother.
The mother is culpable to some degree, depending on her baptism; however, I’ve never seen that she has been culpable criminally.
My own opinion on the matter: A woman who is willing to kill her child is either in need of mental help and/or some kind of sustenance, either way her culpability is usually lacking criminally.
And in that thread B r i a n, stated admited that the human zygote is both human and alive, but some how was only a potential human. That does not compute to say the least. How can something be autonomous, alive, and human, and yet be only a potential human? Logic fails here. That’s why abortion is the taking of a human life and is therefore willful murder by the participants.
It’s safer for the pro-abortionist to say that they believe it’s okay to take human life under prescribed circumstances. At least that’s honest and jibes with the actual science and reality of the matter.
BTW, What do the spaces in the name mean? I did it because everybody else does it.
Somebody. Please. You gotta fill me in on this B r i a n thing. PM will do. Please. I’m dying of curiosity here.
[quote]pat wrote:
BTW, What do the spaces in the name mean? I did it because everybody else does it.[/quote]
Haha! I hadn’t read this before I posted and thought you were in on the joke, too, Pat.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
The Church has always held that the woman is the second victim of abortion.
[/quote]
Can you go into more detail on the above if you don’t mind?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
My own opinion on the matter: A woman who is willing to kill her child is either in need of mental help and/or some kind of sustenance, either way her culpability is usually lacking criminally.
[/quote]
I certainly could agree with this viewpoint, to a degree. I do think this only applies to a certain set of scared, desperate women, though. There are some very bad ones out there, too, who willingly, knowingly use abortion as birth control, and do it again and again. This is purely criminal, in my opinion. Purely evil.
But, again, I cannot presently think of any reliable way to prosecute someone like this without creating a host of other problems.
I do think that, for the other women, who really do not want to do it but feel there is no other choice, just to have the idea accepted and justified by law that you are committing actual murder when you undergo an abortion would be enough to further severely curtail abortions that might otherwise have occurred.
Or, rather, that are occurring, right now.
I agree prosecuting the mother would lead to invasive examinations of a women’s bodies but so what? Is abortion the moral equivalent of killing a newborn or not?
I certainly wouldn’t curtail the investigation of a murdered newborn simply because it would inconvenience citizens. So why make an exception for abortion?
If they are moral equivalents, they should be treated as such.
Cortes, no worries about starting a new thread, I simply should have gotten out of bed this morning and then I could be the originator ; )
Brian, you must be trying. You are trying to keep your mind closed to new possibilities. Please read and understand BEFORE you respond.
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
kneedragger,
The argument that you are making is a little bit misdirected. Yes the zygote has all of the DNA it needs to become a full and functioning human being, yes the tissue is human, but it is not a human being yet, it is a potential human being. Think of it like this, your body can spontaneously abort a baby (at a rate of about 20%, for women that know they are pregnant so the number is actually higher), with most of these miscarriages happening within the first 7 weeks. My mother is long dead, but strangely when she died I did not spontaneously abort (sorry), why is that? because I am a full grown human being. If abortion is naturally occurring (as natures way of dealing with issues pre-birth) why would medically assisted abortions be illegal? In fact the numbers seem to suggest that a number of abortions performed each year are on fetuses that the body hasn’t gotten around to terminating on its’ own…yet. The simple fact is that while some abortions ought not to be done (late term healthy fetuses) in many cases medical professionals are just assisting nature with what it already does. If nature viewed a “living embryo” as a fully developed functioning human it would not abort it.
Fun Facts:
red states have higher teen pregnancy rates than blue states (sex ed and contraception seem to play a role)
countries where abortion is illegal have higher rates of abortion than countries where it is legal.
about 50,000 women die each year from unsafe illegal abortions (sisters, wives and mothers) and about 8.5 million suffer severe medical issues (yes I know 30 bazillion babies were aborted just yesterday).
There are a number of reasons for this some internal (hormone issues for example) some external (substance abuse, trauma etc), but at no point in the pro-life agenda do you recommend putting women in bubble wrap and protecting their unborn children from the world around them, and at no point do you suggest that women be mandated to see a physician [/quote]
I looked over this post and every single claim you make. Never once here or previously have I ever seen a source, not even a Planned Parenthood claim. Do not forget, they are the nationâ??s greatest abortion provider - http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html - See, if I make a claim, I provide a source to back it up. PP should be able to help make your case and support the position of death.
Cortes,
ZEB does that because he thinks I’m a little slow and he is trying to help me out by spelling my name with spaces in it. If you guys find that funny I can see that your club meetings must be a laugh riot, and if you can’t figure it out without an explanation you should ask him to spell your name (and Pats) the same as well.
Just so you know, I pointed out that a zygote, while it is alive and has the genetic make-up of a human being, is not a human being for the very simple reason that it is not a human being. Zygotes are naturally aborted at least 20% of the time (this number may be much, much higher), they are not people anymore than an egg is a chicken. If you look at a zygote you cannot even tell if it is a human a chimp or a puppy they look the same, they cannot feel pain, they have one cell at formation etc. The life begins at conception argument is silly, a sperm is human life, so is an egg, a human life and a human being aren’t the same.
If you want to argue the sanctity of life worry about stopping the abortion of viable children, feed the hungry, adopt an unwanted child etc. trying to stop the morning after pill is ridiculous, as is trying to ban contraception (HR 212), if ideology is all you folks want to promote, fine, but the fact is this country won’t go back to the days of back alley abortions and restrictive legislation regarding reproductive rights for women, calling abortion murder may help you feel that you’ve done your moral duty, but it won’t win you enough votes to change the laws.
Kneedragger,
I will help you out then by posting the links
http://asiancorrespondent.com/60958/taiwans-astonishing-abortion-rate/
and salon.com an article titled “Abortion Rates”
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I agree prosecuting the mother would lead to invasive examinations of a women’s bodies but so what? Is abortion the moral equivalent of killing a newborn or not?
I certainly wouldn’t curtail the investigation of a murdered newborn simply because it would inconvenience citizens. So why make an exception for abortion?
If they are moral equivalents, they should be treated as such.
[/quote]
Honestly, I am not interested in prosecution. I am interested in stopping the activity. I am not concerned with chasing down every weak minded, irresponsible mother to throw them in jail. That’s a waste of time to me and takes away from the task at hand which is stopping the willful killing of innocent humans.
Once it becomes illegal, then we can think about crime and punishment. At this juncture it’s not worth the conversation. Right now, we identify what it actually is and we put a stop to it.
Even if it became illegal over night, it wouldn’t make sense to start filling up the jails.
Much like slavery, it will take a while for everybody to get in line with understanding what it is and why it’s wrong. I don’t expect it to change overnight, I do expect it to change.
The more time that passes the more stark the reality of what abortion is, becomes apparent.
Lot’s of people agree it’s wrong, but not enough of them give it any kind of priority. To me it’s my number 1 issue, over all political issues. If you are pro-abortion, you will never, ever, ever, ever get my vote.
If you support it even 15 degrees removed by proxy, I will not support your cause or give you any money. As is the case with Susan G. Komen.
Yeah, supposedly the monies they give to Planned Genocide is for “Breast Exams”, but the fact that PP does not have to funnel money to the breast exam program means they have more money for their abortion empire. And they are the largest abortion provider in the country.
I would call on my pro-life brothers not only to not give money to Susan g. Komen, but also let them know you won’t and why. I did.
There are other cancer groups that don’t give money to murderers…Support them instead.
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Kneedragger,
I will help you out then by posting the links
http://asiancorrespondent.com/60958/taiwans-astonishing-abortion-rate/
and salon.com an article titled “Abortion Rates”[/quote]
The whole “miscarriage” thing is a red herring. Just because nature kills doesn’t give you the right to kill. Just because the Tsunami killed 100,000 people doesn’t suddenly give you permission to start killing people. “Well nature did it, so I can do it.” It’s a bullshit argument.
Pat,
You think it is a bullshit argument because you don’t see a difference between a zygote and a person, I do and so do the majority of Americans.
[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Pat,
You think it is a bullshit argument because you don’t see a difference between a zygote and a person, I do and so do the majority of Americans.[/quote]
Tell me, what’s the difference then?
What make a human being a human being and at what point does a person stop being a person? This ought to be good.
[quote]pat wrote:
BTW, What do the spaces in the name mean? I did it because everybody else does it.[/quote]
What? I was just about to ask you!