The Abortion Thread

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
261

Here’s yet another way of looking at this. Let’s create a hypothetical world with the same morals as ours. In this world, babies grow on the outside of their mothers’ bodies. Let’s say the mother has a special pocket, a little like a kangaroo. From the time she finds it, she can actually take the baby out, remove him from her body, let others hold him, set him down, etc. The baby is covered with a protective coating that shields him from disease and contains special healing factors to guard against injury. his skeleton is quite elastic and rubbery and his body very pliant, so he is fairly tough, and in order to kill him, you’d have to actually try to do so. The only stipulation is that the baby still requires sustenance from his mother, and her touch and the comfort of being with her for much of the day. Other than that, he is essentially “conceived born.” As he gets older, he will require less and less sustenance and cradling directly from her, and eventually, in a process that is slow gradual that in the day to day observation of his life it is actually imperceptible.

So, again, assuming our world is otherwise exactly identical, up to when is it okay to abort this kid?

262

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Someone relay this to Cortes he is ignoring me (sort of),
[/quote]

No one has to “relay” anything to me. I can see your posts perfectly fine.

I am just not interested in having anything to do with you. I’m saying this as a favor to you, so you can save yourself any typing you do with me in mind. I’m not interested in engaging you. You will never receive any reply from me. In fact, this will be the last post I ever direct at you.

If you are truly a Catholic, I recommend you repent of yours sins and get to a confessional as soon as possible.

May the Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

263

Yeah…I’m not Christian I’ll mention again, but I must say I never understood the distinction in trimesters thing.

What does it matter how much a little pile of cells looks and acts like human as we know it out of the womb?

It’s an undeniable fact that once the ovum is fertilized, it will over time grow inside the woman and pop out and be a human being.

I think too many people turned 18, went to college, knew that they considered themselves more of an intellectual rather than a beer-drinking frat boy, checked with their buddies about which bands the forward-thinking types listened to etc. and what political things they believed in and just ran with it.

I mean what kind of chicks are you going to pick up in college by being against abortion? I think for many it became a thing like war in the Middle East. Who the fuck would be “for” it? No one! If someone brings it up you of course say war sucks. So since as a college boy I’m most likely never going to have to worry about it (unless it happens to some girl I accidentally knock up) then why the hell not save a lot of grief and just get on the intellectual’s and the majority of the women’s side and be for it and look like a modern smart guy???

264

Death of another human being is acceptable if these conditions are met; ???_ Please enlighten me.

265

[quote]Nards wrote:

  • [i]Strange but we have laws preventing car theft because your car is your property, we have insurance to pay for your stolen car, and of course there is the issue of “it is a car”. Lets put abortion in your argument:

“If I think a doctor should not abort my child because I think it is wrong it doesn’t mean I have to adopt a child or else I’m just part of the problem.”
Nope, all you have to do Nards is not abort your fetus and then care for it.[/i]

Wait…isn’t that what I said?
I’m not understanding the point you’re making.
[/quote]

No, it is not the point you were making. Your post implies that someone is doing something to you and your property against your will, and that you should not have to reward someone for not doing something to you. That is nothing like the anti-choice message you are presenting. A person getting an abortion is doing nothing to you or your property so the analogy falls short.

266

[quote]Nards wrote:
Yeah…I’m not Christian I’ll mention again, but I must say I never understood the distinction in trimesters thing.

What does it matter how much a little pile of cells looks and acts like human as we know it out of the womb?

It’s an undeniable fact that once the ovum is fertilized, it will over time grow inside the woman and pop out and be a human being.

I think too many people turned 18, went to college, knew that they considered themselves more of an intellectual rather than a beer-drinking frat boy, checked with their buddies about which bands the forward-thinking types listened to etc. and what political things they believed in and just ran with it.

I mean what kind of chicks are you going to pick up in college by being against abortion? I think for many it became a thing like war in the Middle East. Who the fuck would be “for” it? No one! If someone brings it up you of course say war sucks. So since as a college boy I’m most likely never going to have to worry about it (unless it happens to some girl I accidentally knock up) then why the hell not save a lot of grief and just get on the intellectual’s and the majority of the women’s side and be for it and look like a modern smart guy???
[/quote]

In the interest of using unrelated things, let’s try this:

I buy some land and decide to build a house, at what point in the process is it a house?

I buy the land.
I put down a foundation.
I frame the house
I run in plumbing and electric
I put up a roof
I put up walls, floors and fixtures

I think it is funny that you would say that pro-choice folks got that way by trying to get laid in college, I guess you are telling me that the pro-life crowd is made up of high school graduates (it is after all a sort of terminal degree) virgins.

267

Brian, learn how to clean up your quotes and actually use the functions on these boards. I find it highly amusing you fail to understand a simple, logical process because you refuse to try.

I will address this single point, simply because you seem most certain of its accuracy. I cannot address the rest of the post because you have zero science to stand on.

What is the “future child” if it is not a human being?

The rest of you post is actually addressed here - http://www.rebeccakiessling.com/PhilosophicalAbortionEssay.html -

268

What is a human zygote or embryo then? - http://embryo.soad.umich.edu/ -

What specific characteristics do the unborn lack? A source would be nice. - Acorns and Embryos -

So if the traits are dormant that means they don’t count? - The Virtual Human Embryo -

In America abortion is still legal through the entire period of gestation. - DATEHOOKUP® -

You have yet to actually prove anything, I see lots of baseless claims though. - http://eprint.iacr.org/2010/610.pdf -

269

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Nards wrote:
Yeah but what does it take to turn an embryo into a human?

Nothing.

You just wait and if things go according to nature then a baby pops out.[/quote]

You forgot the step about the magical baby-fairy. You put your zygote under your pillow and she comes and switches it out with a real baby while you’re sleeping. [/quote]

That is not that far from the truth.

270

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Nards wrote:
Yeah but what does it take to turn an embryo into a human?

Nothing.

You just wait and if things go according to nature then a baby pops out.[/quote]

You forgot the step about the magical baby-fairy. You put your zygote under your pillow and she comes and switches it out with a real baby while you’re sleeping. [/quote]

That is not that far from the truth.[/quote]

(^_^)

Good to see you here, orion.

How so?

271

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:

[quote]Nards wrote:
Yeah…I’m not Christian I’ll mention again, but I must say I never understood the distinction in trimesters thing.

What does it matter how much a little pile of cells looks and acts like human as we know it out of the womb?

It’s an undeniable fact that once the ovum is fertilized, it will over time grow inside the woman and pop out and be a human being.

I think too many people turned 18, went to college, knew that they considered themselves more of an intellectual rather than a beer-drinking frat boy, checked with their buddies about which bands the forward-thinking types listened to etc. and what political things they believed in and just ran with it.

I mean what kind of chicks are you going to pick up in college by being against abortion? I think for many it became a thing like war in the Middle East. Who the fuck would be “for” it? No one! If someone brings it up you of course say war sucks. So since as a college boy I’m most likely never going to have to worry about it (unless it happens to some girl I accidentally knock up) then why the hell not save a lot of grief and just get on the intellectual’s and the majority of the women’s side and be for it and look like a modern smart guy???
[/quote]

In the interest of using unrelated things, let’s try this:

I buy some land and decide to build a house, at what point in the process is it a house?

I buy the land.
I put down a foundation.
I frame the house
I run in plumbing and electric
I put up a roof
I put up walls, floors and fixtures

I think it is funny that you would say that pro-choice folks got that way by trying to get laid in college, I guess you are telling me that the pro-life crowd is made up of high school graduates (it is after all a sort of terminal degree) virgins.
[/quote]

First, I don’t like using weasel words like pro-choice and pro-life. Better to say what it is, pro-abortion and anti-abortion.

Secondly, a house doesn’t build itself once you put a little house “seed” in the ground.

If you put a house seed in the ground and then it started growing and after a few weeks you decided you don’t want the house someone would say “Why did you put the seed in? You wasted what was going to be a pretty good house!”

272

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
If you want to take away choices then be part of the solution…adopt…and adopt plenty of them.

Taking away an existing solution to a problem because you don’t like it, and then offering no alternative solution for said problem and then saying “Why should I help, I didn’t create the problem” seems like a pretty poor answer, but hey as long as your conscience is clear.
[/quote]

Watch as this gets ignored.[/quote]

He was already ignored awhile ago.

273

[quote]ephrem wrote:
A zygote or embryo is not an unborn child.

To classify something as human, and granting it the same rights as fullfledged air-breathing human beings, it needs human characteristics.

Until a certain stage in the pregnancy these characteristics aren’t present or are dormant.

As it stands, as far as I’m concerned, the current rules about abortion are satisfactory.

I don’t think I’ve ever been able to put this so succinctly. I thank those countless other abortion-thread for that.[/quote]

What are these human characteristics that you deem that humans should have in order to obtain their rights as human beings?

274

A sufficiently developed brain for instance.

275

[quote]ephrem wrote:
A sufficiently developed brain for instance.[/quote]

That’s the thing I don’t get…a fetus will have a fully developed brain if you don’t interfere and just wait.

And I don’t get how people can defend animals (a very worthy cause I think) yet make excuses why fetuses are just not smart enough to be safe from being terminated.

276

[quote]Nards wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
A sufficiently developed brain for instance.[/quote]

That’s the thing I don’t get…a fetus will have a fully developed brain if you don’t interfere and just wait.

And I don’t get how people can defend animals (a very worthy cause I think) yet make excuses why fetuses are just not smart enough to be safe from being terminated.[/quote]

The potential of a fetus is not relevant.

277

[quote]Nards wrote:

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:

[quote]Nards wrote:
Yeah…I’m not Christian I’ll mention again, but I must say I never understood the distinction in trimesters thing.

What does it matter how much a little pile of cells looks and acts like human as we know it out of the womb?

It’s an undeniable fact that once the ovum is fertilized, it will over time grow inside the woman and pop out and be a human being.

I think too many people turned 18, went to college, knew that they considered themselves more of an intellectual rather than a beer-drinking frat boy, checked with their buddies about which bands the forward-thinking types listened to etc. and what political things they believed in and just ran with it.

I mean what kind of chicks are you going to pick up in college by being against abortion? I think for many it became a thing like war in the Middle East. Who the fuck would be “for” it? No one! If someone brings it up you of course say war sucks. So since as a college boy I’m most likely never going to have to worry about it (unless it happens to some girl I accidentally knock up) then why the hell not save a lot of grief and just get on the intellectual’s and the majority of the women’s side and be for it and look like a modern smart guy???
[/quote]

In the interest of using unrelated things, let’s try this:

I buy some land and decide to build a house, at what point in the process is it a house?

I buy the land.
I put down a foundation.
I frame the house
I run in plumbing and electric
I put up a roof
I put up walls, floors and fixtures

I think it is funny that you would say that pro-choice folks got that way by trying to get laid in college, I guess you are telling me that the pro-life crowd is made up of high school graduates (it is after all a sort of terminal degree) virgins.
[/quote]

First, I don’t like using weasel words like pro-choice and pro-life. Better to say what it is, pro-abortion and anti-abortion.

Secondly, a house doesn’t build itself once you put a little house “seed” in the ground.

If you put a house seed in the ground and then it started growing and after a few weeks you decided you don’t want the house someone would say “Why did you put the seed in? You wasted what was going to be a pretty good house!”
[/quote]

Nards,

Okay We’ll use the non-weasel words:

Pro-Choice and Anti-Abortion, you are assuming that being pro-choice = pro-abortion, but in 90% of the pro-choice folks that is simply not true, they don’t choose abortion, I have 2 kids, if I were pro-abortion I would have none, instead I am all for allowing a woman to make her own choices without assuming that I know what is best for her.

As for the house analogy I think that your answer is pretty interesting: "“Why did you put the seed in? You wasted what was going to be a pretty good house!” First of all you state that it “was going to be” a pretty nice house, you acknowledge that it is not a house yet, but you think in the future that it might be. And secondly, the assumption that you somehow know how the house would turn out is pretty flawed, if I put in a foundation who’s to say that I don’t screw up the plumbing or electric or

278

You’re arguing kind of weird…we all know that someone who is for abortion doesn’t think we abort everyone. Please don’t make things silly.

And your house analogy is starting to get incredibly confusing.

Sure you can stop building a house whenever you want, but an ovum once fertilized will only need time in the womb to turn into a fetus then 9 months later a baby.

279

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Nards wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
A sufficiently developed brain for instance.[/quote]

That’s the thing I don’t get…a fetus will have a fully developed brain if you don’t interfere and just wait.

And I don’t get how people can defend animals (a very worthy cause I think) yet make excuses why fetuses are just not smart enough to be safe from being terminated.[/quote]

The potential of a fetus is not relevant.[/quote]

Why not?

280

[quote]Nards wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Nards wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
A sufficiently developed brain for instance.[/quote]

That’s the thing I don’t get…a fetus will have a fully developed brain if you don’t interfere and just wait.

And I don’t get how people can defend animals (a very worthy cause I think) yet make excuses why fetuses are just not smart enough to be safe from being terminated.[/quote]

The potential of a fetus is not relevant.[/quote]

Why not?[/quote]

Because he says so.