The Abortion Thread

This was from over two decades ago! In addition they never set any parameters or anything of that sort, at least none that I found.

edit To see the entire article I would have to “Subscribe/Join AAAS or Buy Access to This Article to View Full Text” and that is above my pay grade! ; )

[quote]therajraj wrote:
A review of methodologically sound studies of the psychological responses of U.S. women after they obtained legal, nonrestrictive abortions indicates that distress is generally greatest before the abortion and that the incidence of severe negative responses is low. Factors associated with increased risk of negative response are consistent with those reported in research on other stressful life events.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/248/4951/41[/quote]

Having or not having regrets about something is not criteria for whether something is wrong or right. If you go down that road, than anything a total sociopath does isn’t wrong because they don’t regret it.

I will simply quoted the section of my problems with these studies.

[quote]therajraj wrote:
. . . . Excellent (no studies), Very Good (4 studies), Fair (8 studies), Poor (8 studies), or Very Poor (1 study). . . .

. . . . Nonetheless, it is clear that some women do experience sadness, grief, and feelings of loss following termination of a pregnancy, and some experience clinically significant disorders, including depression and anxiety. . . . [/quote]

So the first study has no access to the full article.

The second study cites "This review identified several factors that are predictive of more negative psychological responses following first-trimester abortion among women in the United States. Those factors included:

"Perceptions of stigma, need for secrecy, and low or anticipated social support for the abortion decision;

"A prior history of mental health problems;

"Personality factors such as low self-esteem and use of avoidance and denial coping strategies; and

"Characteristics of the particular pregnancy, including the extent to which the woman wanted and felt committed to it."

raj, please address this simple point; How does killing a child ever make a woman feel better?

edited In addition, Fletch1986 brings up an awesome point! :slight_smile:


The unavoidably human aspect of human sexuality
by Rebecca Oas, Ph.D. June 15, 2012 (Zenit.org)

It could be said that the common enemy of the diet industry and the junk food industry is self-control.

Information from the World Health Organization indicates that global obesity has doubled since 1980[1], which suggests that self-control is not winning the fight. Many tactics have been attempted to curb this trend, due to the heavy cost of obesity, both to the individual’s health and the society’s health care system. Educational programs have been implemented to teach children good habits early in life, taxes have been levied against foods deemed to be nutritionally lacking, and restrictions have been placed on where and how such foods can be accessed. A recent attempt to ban the sale of soft drinks larger than 16 ounces in New York City drew intense scrutiny, although it ultimately failed to pass into law. Meanwhile, popular diets lure people to join programs promising quick results “without dieting or exercise,” to quote a common slogan.

While psychologists tout the benefits of self-control and suggest that it can be increased through practice, it’s easy to see why campaigns to improve societal health don’t focus on this angle, and not only because impulsive consumption provides economic stimulus. Self-control, self-denial, and a willingness to forego immediate gratification are fundamentally moral concepts. A recent column in Time Magazine presented the notion that self-control, as highlighted during Lent, has benefits beyond the spiritual, referring to this as “the open secret of all religions”[2]. Nonetheless, even if you manage to convince people that self-control has its advantages, developing it in a society that emphasizes convenience, sensory pleasure, and material acquisition is an uphill battle.

One of the central difficulties in the field of public health is the fact that influencing large populations of people to make healthier choices is extremely difficult. This struggle is echoed in the realm of morality as well - both priests and medical doctors know that the advice they give in a confessional or examination room may fail to be effective when met with a lack of compliance on the part of the penitent or patient.

Nowhere is the uneasy association of public health and public morality more fraught with controversy than in the area of sexual behavior. While religious teachings, such as those of the Catholic faith, focus on self-control and a view of human sexuality in the context of the divine plan, public health officials focus on pragmatism, arguing that people will engage in potentially risky behavior regardless of the consequences, particularly when the behavior presents immediate sensory rewards. Public health advocates pay nominal tribute to the fact that reserving sexuality for a faithful and committed marriage affords the optimal outcomes both for the sexual health of the individual and the long-term well-being of the resulting children, but are then quick to point out that many people do not live according to this standard, even among those who claim to uphold it, and cite studies linking increased emphasis on abstinence-only education with increased rates of unintended pregnancy among teenagers[3].

The gap between “ideal” and “typical” behavior exists among users of contraceptives as well as those who aspire to be abstinent. A recent survey of women who identify themselves as being sexually active and desiring reversible contraception measures revealed that the women overestimated the effectiveness of the contraceptives, especially those which rely more heavily on human compliance, such as condoms, pills, injections, patches, and rings[4]. In fact, nearly 60% of participants overestimated the ability of these measures to prevent an unintended pregnancy, a fact which the study’s authors attributed in part to the information contained in the manufacturer’s packaging of these products, which report failure rates with the assumption of perfect use.

It is worth pointing out that this survey was conducted as part of a program designed to promote the use of long-acting reversible contraception (LARC), including intrauterine devices and implants. Another study published in The New England Journal of Medicine reported that approximately half of unintended pregnancies are attributable to contraceptive failure, emphasizing human error as the primary cause, again proposing LARC methods as the best solution[5]. However, the effort to promote the use of LARC methods may come at a cost: a recent report in the British Medical Journal indicates that non-oral contraceptives, including LARC methods, as well as contraceptive rings, carry a higher risk of serious blood clots than the pill, and the accompanying press release urged women to consider switching to oral contraceptives[6].

The idea that humans are not perfectly consistent or reliable is certainly no new revelation: the fallen nature of man is a central teaching of Christianity, and our capacity for error is unavoidably evident to religious and non-religious people alike. So it should come as no surprise that people often fail at both abstinence and contraception, in much the same way as we often fail to exercise moderation when we eat. But where the religious and the secular world diverge is in the response after a failure occurs. Within the Catholic Church can be found methods to grow in virtues like self-control, the Sacrament of Confession for when we fall, and a spirit of gratitude and welcome for new life, even when its arrival is unintended. In contrast, the secular world, having long-since abandoned sexual self-control, can only view unintended pregnancy as a tragedy, and one to be avoided by adopting forms of contraception that place a woman at increased risk of life-threatening blood clots, for the sake of avoiding maternity.

In the United States, there has been widespread controversy regarding the sex education curricula presented in public schools, with some favoring “abstinence-only” education and others touting a more comprehensive approach. Critics of “abstinence-only” education object to its moralistic tone, exemplified by the language in its definition that condemns all extramarital sexual activity[7]. While some might argue that this standard, which derives from Judeo-Christian morality, should not be part of a curriculum presented to students who may or may not embrace that worldview, the separation of public health and public morality into discrete boxes is apparently only desirable when it curtails the establishment of moral standards. When Pope Benedict XIV reiterated the Church’s stance against barrier methods of contraception in 2009, it ignited a huge controversy, partly due to the tendency of many news outlets to take his words out of context, but also because he challenged the notion that condoms are the best solution to the worldwide AIDS epidemic. In fact, he went further; lost in the media tempest regarding condoms was his plea for the “humanization of sexuality”[8].

The Holy Father’s words call us back to the recognition that humans are endowed with intelligence and free will[9], and while this means we are capable of falling, it also means we are able to succeed and improve ourselves through the development of virtue. However, the harmony that exists within the Church’s teachings on human sexuality cannot be replicated outside of a framework that acknowledges the importance of self-control, the procreative aspect of human sexuality, and the value of human life at all stages. Only when we acknowledge the harms caused by lust and gluttony can we fully appreciate the benefits of chastity and temperance, and only when we embrace self-mastery can we know both its difficulty and its desserts.

(1) Obesity and overweight

(2) Lent and the Science of Self-Denial | TIME.com

(3) Abstinence-Only Education and Teen Pregnancy Rates: Why We Need Comprehensive Sex Education in the U.S

(4) Eisenberg DL, Secura GM, Madden TE, Allsworth JE, Zhao Q, Peipert JF. Knowledge of contraceptive effectiveness. American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology. 2012 Jun;206(6):479

(5) Winner B, Peipert JF, Zhao Q, Buckel C, Madden T, Allsworth JE, Secura GM. Effectiveness of long-acting reversible contraception. The New England Journal of Medicine. 2012 May 24;366(21):1998-2007.

(6) http://www.bmj.com/press-releases/2012/05/09/study-adds-evidence-clot-risks-non-oral-contraceptives

(7) Social Security Act §510

(8) http://www.zenit.org/rssenglish-31026

(9) http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm#311

This article originally appeared on Zenit.org - ZENIT - English - The World Seen From Rome -

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/the-unavoidably-human-aspect-of-human-sexuality

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I now realize why people like mak are so willfully ignorant! Him and others heard about Peter Singer in Australia teaching that abortion was justifiable, even a month after the child has been born.

Australia: horrified by infanticide, but willing to give our highest award to its leading promoter
by Amin Abboud Fri Jun 15, 2012

June 15, 2012 (Mercatornet.com) - Infanticide is a gruesome topic, but two of the weekâ??s leading news stories in different ways deal with this sickening reality.

On Tuesday, Northern Territory Coroner Elizabeth Morris told Lindy Chamberlain and her former husband Michael she had found a dingo did indeed kill their baby daughter Azaria in 1980. This brought an end to a 32-year struggle that had scarred the Australian psyche.

Lindy was jailed for the murder of Azaria, and Michael was given a suspended sentence for being an accessory after the fact. After three years in jail, Lindy was released when new evidence emerged. In 1987, a royal commission inquiry exonerated both.

As a 14-year-old boy, I watched this real-life drama unfold on TV. The tragic death of a nine-week-old baby, which was claimed to be at the hands of her own mother, was difficult to comprehend.

Lindy and Michael’s total exoneration is a relief for them, of course, but the Coroner’s conclusion is a relief for us all. To be certain a young mother did not take the life of her own baby helps to restore our faith in human nature. If the young and helpless are not always protected among us, what kind of society do we belong to?

Ironically for some, we belong to the kind of society that awarded Australia’s highest civil honour to the philosopher Peter Singer on Monday. Singer has been made a Companion of Australia for “eminent service to philosophy and bioethics as a leader of public debate and communicator of ideas in the areas of global poverty, animal welfare and the human condition”.

There is something naive about this catalogue of Singer’s achievements. Around the world, his name is synonymous with arguments that legitimise infanticide. He has been advocating this case since at least 1979, when he published his most influential book, Practical Ethics.

The revisions in last year’s edition do not include a retraction of his notorious views. He says: “A week-old baby is not a rational and self-aware being, and there are many non-human animals whose rationality, self-awareness, capacity to feel and so on, exceed that of a human baby a week or a month old. If, for the reasons I have given, the fetus does not have the same claim to life as a person, it appears the newborn baby does not either.”

The world has gasped in horror at the murder of infants in Syrian atrocities. But Singer would not necessarily share our revulsion. When asked how we should react to Nazi soldiers killing helpless infants he calmly replied: “It is true infants appeal to us because they are small and helpless, and there are no doubt very good evolutionary reasons why we should instinctively feel protective towards them. It is also true that infants cannot be combatants, and killing infants in wartime is the clearest case of killing civilians, which is prohibited by international convention. None of this shows, however, that the death of an infant is as bad as the death of an (innocent) adult.”

To those of us who squirmed at the thought Azaria had been killed by another human, let alone her mother, Singer advised: “To think the lives of infants are of special value because infants are small and cute is on par with thinking a baby seal, with its soft white fur coat and large round eyes, deserves greater protection than a gorilla, who lacks these attributes.”

Mercifully, Singer is not an advocate of unrestricted infanticide. This should only be legalised under strict conditions, he recommends, because killing a child is a “terrible loss on those who love and cherish the child”.

An Order of Australia ought to reflect Australian values. Clearly, tolerance of infanticide is not one of them.

I am not writing to suggest Singer’s AC be revoked. But I do have a suggestion.

The Chamberlains ended their long journey with a revised copy of their daughter’s death certificate clearly stating that the cause of death was a dingo attack. The stain on their honour was expunged for ever.

My request is this. Can Australians who may feel like accessories after the fact to infanticide get a certificate of their own explicitly dissociating them from Singer’s repugnant views?

Amin Abboud lives in Sydney, Australia. He is a registered medical doctor, has a PhD in moral philosophy and is a Catholic priest. He is completing a book on Peter Singer’s moral philosophy, which will be published by Connor Court Publishing.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/australia-horrified-by-infanticide-but-willing-to-give-our-highest-award-to

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
Myths 2-5 on page two.

I have the deepest sympathies for a woman who has been raped. I see the original act to be horrible and unjustifiable act. Yet in the end if she were to conceive a child, oh the great gift she would have! I, Brother Chris, ask him if you doubt me pat, Cortes, and many of the other posters here and IRL have NEVER been for taking away the choices of a mother. I believe they deserve every option they would want!

Self imposed ignorance is why I have a problem with your claim that a more heinous and violent act will erase the original act from memory. Explain your thought process please to prove me wrong.

Back in '96, there was a total of 34 pregnancies that resulted from rape. Are you trying to argue a case for the whole or just a select, tiny few? - Rape-related pregnancy: estimates and descriptive characteristics from a national sample of women - PubMed - Please do some research yourself before you make random claims.

I presume you know women who have been raped and they shared how they felt. Am I mistaken?

[/quote]

Please dont take offense to this but your 10 myths document is not the end all be all posit of proof of correctness. I love how the thing is put forth by a phD professor in Philosophy that opens with “The question as to when a human being begins is strictly a scientific question, and should be answered by human embryologists - not by philosophers,…”

I agree that the basis human life begins at conception, it sets the stage and allows for the continued devlopment of that embryo into a human being. I tend to agree with other researchers, scientists and philosophers in that "“The entity created by fertilization is indeed a human embryo, and it has the potential to be human adult. Whether these facts are enough to accord it personhood is a question influenced by opinion, philosophy and theology, rather than by science.”

Its like the chicken and the egg argument, an egg is definitely NOT a chicken in many ways yet it can become a chicken if left to the right conditions.

I am not just talking about rape but I do think there are reasonable scenarios where the law should allow for abortion, nothing more nothing less. Encourage not getting abortions all you want, support adoption, educate, etc. But taking away the choice in all circumstances is not a good answer. So if you dont feel that way great! We agree.

Maybe.
But personhood is absolutely irrelevant here.

Again :
Personhood may be the basis of our right to sue and be sued in court, but it’s certainly not the basis of our right to life.

Our right to life is unconditionnal per definition.
You’re alive : you have a right to life.

If it was not the case, our right to life would not be a right to life at all, but only a “right to life as…[insert what you want here]”.
A person, for example.

Adding such a criterium only narrow the spectrum of ethics (and the number of beings we have to respect)
Problem is that narrowing the spectrum of ethics is the mean, the end and the very definition of evil.

Usually, when we want to encourage peoplz to not do something we … make a law that legally ban it.
That’s usually not enough. But it’s a start.

A law doesn’t take away the choice. it only forces people to face the consequences of their choices.

I like the istandforlife.org image. I think its kind of ironic that the 3 protected things are only protected as a result of being in danger of extinction as a result of the 4th.

Sufiandy,

“I like the istandforlife.org image. I think its kind of ironic that the 3 protected things are only protected as a result of being in danger of extinction as a result of the 4th.”

i did not think of that, and i am sure that the fellow that created the image didn’t either.

[quote]storey420 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]storey420 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]storey420 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]storey420 wrote:
Can’t we just put this to rest and say pre 3 months in cases of rape, etc.vor if it endangers the life of the mother =begrudgingly acceptable, those that are anti-in all cases, well you’d better have at least 2 or 3 adopted kids or STFU[/quote]

I have 5 adopted brothers. But, I’m not sure what this has to do with not being willing to accept the killing of innocent human beings. Did Germans have to adopt Jews to be against the Holocaust now?[/quote]

Bit of a strawman but my point is that if you want to take away (and Im not saying you personally do) any options for abortion (totally illegal and consider under any circumstance its murder) then by proxy you should bear the responsibility of raising some of these unwanted children once they go up for adoption lest you be a hypocrite.[/quote]

Why? It wasn’t me who put my penis in those women.

Please, I really want to hear your reasoning. Why? Please explain how you reached the above conclusion.
[/quote]

No doubt you didnt put your penis in her, just like I didnt put that snickers in fatties’ mouth that wants me to chip in for their universal healthcare.
Point being that while I am on your side in that I do believe it is the wrong thing to do, I also believe there are circumstances where it should be allowed but more importantly I dont think my moral compass should be imposed on the woman that has to actually carry and then care for the child.
If you’re for some specific instances allowing it to happen then cool, those that are against any choice in the matter then you are saying because of my moral compass, you need to bring that child into this world (broken home be damned) and invariably when that child goes into social institutions like an orphanage it will need parents and who better to take up that responsibility than those that vehemently opposed the right of choice of another (also they must have a higher moral compass so the kid would seemingly have a shot at a better upbringing)
Does that make sense (dont have to agree but seeing if that makes any sense)[/quote]

But we don’t get to choose to murder people, so the whole point is moot. You are arguing that we should allow murder in order to make society somehow “better.” I’m not buying that for one second.

See my syllogism above for clarification.
[/quote]

Your statement belies the root of the argument that has been dragged out over this thread and everyone like it. Murdering a person. I’m sorry but I dont think a mass of cells (in that 2 months or less window) is a person. Take it out of the mother and it dies, period. So no Im not arguing for murdering people, Im arguing for a woman to have the right to choose in certain cases what she does with those mass of cells growing inside her.
But again it doesnt really matter if you do or dont think that for the end conclusion which is, you want to take away choices then be part of the solution…adopt…and adopt plenty of them.[/quote]

Problem is, both science and logic support my view of the humanity of that “mass of cells.” Don’t forget that you are just a “mass of cells” as well. But let’s examine points;

Take it out of the mother and it dies:

The only reason many children are “viable” from around the 24th week is because of advances in medicine that allow us to care for the premature child from as early as this. As medical science continues to advance, the viable point will become earlier and earlier, and there is no reason to believe this will not reach back even to the “mass of cells” stage of development.

So, when that happens, will the morals of the issue have somehow shifted. Will it then be immoral?

If you want to take away choices then be part of the solution…adopt…and adopt plenty of them

Exactly how many should I adopt? Should I also build my own prison to house and feed criminals because I want to take away their “choice” to do what they do? Would one prison be enough? Certainly, as you have demonstrated, my tax dollars and my say in the electorate are clearly not enough for you. So tell me, in hard numbers, what should I give?

Let’s have it?

"As medical science continues to advance, the viable point will become earlier and earlier, and there is no reason to believe this will not reach back even to the “mass of cells” stage of development. "

Excellent, at that point abortion will no longer be an issue, we can just remove unwanted zygotes and place them in foster care.

If you want to take away choices then be part of the solution…adopt…and adopt plenty of them.

Taking away an existing solution to a problem because you don’t like it, and then offering no alternative solution for said problem and then saying “Why should I help, I didn’t create the problem” seems like a pretty poor answer, but hey as long as your conscience is clear.

[quote]storey420 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]storey420 wrote:
Can’t we just put this to rest and say pre 3 months in cases of rape, etc.vor if it endangers the life of the mother =begrudgingly acceptable, those that are anti-in all cases, well you’d better have at least 2 or 3 adopted kids or STFU[/quote]

I have 5 adopted brothers. But, I’m not sure what this has to do with not being willing to accept the killing of innocent human beings. Did Germans have to adopt Jews to be against the Holocaust now?[/quote]

Bit of a strawman but my point is that if you want to take away (and Im not saying you personally do) any options for abortion (totally illegal and consider under any circumstance its murder) then by proxy you should bear the responsibility of raising some of these unwanted children once they go up for adoption lest you be a hypocrite.[/quote]

One should be responsible for their actions. Whether that action produces an effect you want or not is quite irrelevant. One also should not kill innocent human beings. If a mother finds out that her infant is the child of a rapist and not her husband’s, can she kill it? No. Then why is it okay to kill an innocent human being because it is in the womb?

P.S. All five of my brothers were wanted, for various reasons they came into my house out of necessity.

[quote]andy.steven wrote:
@ brother chris
the reason I made the rape/incest comment is to show that in some case an bortion should be allowable. those are, im sure, only a small precentage of actual abortion cases. however, imagine if your a female and raped… do you want a kid thats half of your rapist or that was inbreed?
just some food for thought, just saying sometimes there is a gray area, not everything is blak and white [/quote]

So, let me follow your thought process and let me ask you a question. If I do not want a kid that is my rapists child, I should be allowed to kill an innocent human being?

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
but seeing that killing the innocent human being that they have conceived is a greater evil.[/quote]

what if, and this is purely for conversation’s sake, the mother would loath the child? What if she could never recover from her injustice?

Would an un-loved, even hated child, as a product of the situation, change which action was a greater evil? PArticularly given what hatred, resentment and pain can do to an otherwise rational person?

EDIT: What I’m getting at is: Is there ever a situation that would be a greater evil than abortion?[/quote]

It would be a sad fact, however I am not sure how it changes the dignity of the child. I by no means disregard the dignity of the mother as she has equal dignity to the child. When I say that is a greater evil, I am merely pointing out that murder is greater than rape (though if there is anything that is second to murder it is rape, I’ve looked into the eyes of a rape victim, and they might as well be dead inside). The only thing that could be greater that murder, is multiple murders. I can’t think of anything higher than that.

In what way?

Possibly, I haven’t dug up any studies on the situation, but just by witness account the affect is temporary at best and no relief at all.

By relief I mean relief of suffering. I don’t see suffering as bad, it is an evil in a sense. But it leads to good. In other words suffering it seems to be the pain which we feel when we move from bad to good. We feel pain when we break our arm, but the pain we have while it heals is suffering. To relieve that pain is in attempt to move them quicker back to the good. The reason why I said temporary is because it would maybe seem like it would help the process of dealing with the rape (removing a constant reminder), but it seems that women tend to feel worse pain about their abortions than their rapes.

Yes. But, I held the belief before I was responsible for anyone’s baby.

[quote]And I only ask because parents tend to think alike in that they will pick the kids’ interests first. It is kinda just what you do. So I was really just fishing to see if you were a Dad, because you put the kids’ interests first as well.

Young single men tend to put themselves and their “pussy” first.

But that is speculation and I cannot back that up with fact, and also understand there are exceptions to the rule.[/quote]

Well, I’ve been on many college campuses throughout the US and I can say out of the campuses I have been to only Benedictine College, St. Thomas Aquinas College, and the University of Nebraska-Lincoln has been given polls where over 50% of males are anti-abortion. Most colleges range from 75-95% (UKMC was 99%, but it is a rather strange campus) pro-abortion for men and lower for women.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Is there any actual scientific evidence to support the idea that abortions effect the health of the woman?

From what I’ve read, women do not become scarred from having abortions. I would even go as far as saying it’s much more likely a woman would experience mental health issues from giving birth.

From what I’ve seen at least. If you guys have scientific evidence to contrary please share.

Edit: I mean MENTAL health.[/quote]

Seems so.

https://www.google.com/search?sugexp=chrome,mod=4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=health+effects+of+abortion[/quote]

Linking me to Google… thanks?[/quote]

Lol. Sorry, I must have copied the address to late.

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
Having or not having regrets about something is not criteria for whether something is wrong or right. If you go down that road, than anything a total sociopath does isn’t wrong because they don’t regret it. [/quote]

But we recognize that a sociopath is not normal.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
I like the istandforlife.org image. I think its kind of ironic that the 3 protected things are only protected as a result of being in danger of extinction as a result of the 4th.[/quote]

Since when have babies in wombs been dangerous to whales and eagles?

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
If you want to take away choices then be part of the solution…adopt…and adopt plenty of them.

Taking away an existing solution to a problem because you don’t like it, and then offering no alternative solution for said problem and then saying “Why should I help, I didn’t create the problem” seems like a pretty poor answer, but hey as long as your conscience is clear.
[/quote]

Watch as this gets ignored.