The Abortion Thread

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
201

[quote]maverick88 wrote:

People use the mother’s life is at risk argument all the time but, how many mothers would choose their lives over their childrens? If the fetus is really equal to a newborn child, I would think all mothers would take the risk.

[/quote]

Had this conversation with my wife before she gave birth. In the event I had to choose, which did she want me to choose. Without question, and with zero hesitation, she picked our daughter over herself.

I had to think about which I would choose for quite a while before I came to any conclusion.

202

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

So, if a human being is a product of rape or incest they are sub-human are allowed to be killed?[/quote]

No, not at all.

But, asking a woman to carry and birth a child begat from rape is an insanely difficult thing to ask/force her to do…[/quote]

Yes, it would be superfluous to say that anything pertaining to rape is not an insanely difficult task. A woman who is raped should always be sympathized with for her tremendous wound that she now has with her. The woman has been violated two fold (for certain), she has lost her innocence…she was forced to accept something she was not ready to receive and she was possibly forced to bear life though she was likely not ready to bear children.

Purely an anecdote (though I suspect it might be statistically significant), I have placed myself in positions (rather incidentally) that have allowed me to deal with groups like Rachel’s Vineyard and Silent No More, and most rape victims have spoken on how it took them longer to deal with the abortion than to heal from the rape itself.

Further, the reason for not compromising on abortion and incest has nothing to do with not having sympathy for the mother (I have dealt and been around sexual abuse victims, not only do I empathize with them, I have great sympathy for the destruction that has come into their life against their very will), but seeing that killing the innocent human being that they have conceived is a greater evil. And, since the ends can’t justify the means it is wrong to kill an innocent human being that is not guilty for her father’s actions in order to give a seemingly temporarily therapeutic relief.

I’m not sure on what you mean by this last question. Family/friends? Yes.

203

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]storey420 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]storey420 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]storey420 wrote:
Can’t we just put this to rest and say pre 3 months in cases of rape, etc.vor if it endangers the life of the mother =begrudgingly acceptable, those that are anti-in all cases, well you’d better have at least 2 or 3 adopted kids or STFU[/quote]

I have 5 adopted brothers. But, I’m not sure what this has to do with not being willing to accept the killing of innocent human beings. Did Germans have to adopt Jews to be against the Holocaust now?[/quote]

Bit of a strawman but my point is that if you want to take away (and Im not saying you personally do) any options for abortion (totally illegal and consider under any circumstance its murder) then by proxy you should bear the responsibility of raising some of these unwanted children once they go up for adoption lest you be a hypocrite.[/quote]

Why? It wasn’t me who put my penis in those women.

Please, I really want to hear your reasoning. Why? Please explain how you reached the above conclusion.
[/quote]

No doubt you didnt put your penis in her, just like I didnt put that snickers in fatties’ mouth that wants me to chip in for their universal healthcare.
Point being that while I am on your side in that I do believe it is the wrong thing to do, I also believe there are circumstances where it should be allowed but more importantly I dont think my moral compass should be imposed on the woman that has to actually carry and then care for the child.
If you’re for some specific instances allowing it to happen then cool, those that are against any choice in the matter then you are saying because of my moral compass, you need to bring that child into this world (broken home be damned) and invariably when that child goes into social institutions like an orphanage it will need parents and who better to take up that responsibility than those that vehemently opposed the right of choice of another (also they must have a higher moral compass so the kid would seemingly have a shot at a better upbringing)
Does that make sense (dont have to agree but seeing if that makes any sense)[/quote]

But we don’t get to choose to murder people, so the whole point is moot. You are arguing that we should allow murder in order to make society somehow “better.” I’m not buying that for one second.

See my syllogism above for clarification.
[/quote]

Your statement belies the root of the argument that has been dragged out over this thread and everyone like it. Murdering a person. I’m sorry but I dont think a mass of cells (in that 2 months or less window) is a person. Take it out of the mother and it dies, period. So no Im not arguing for murdering people, Im arguing for a woman to have the right to choose in certain cases what she does with those mass of cells growing inside her.
But again it doesnt really matter if you do or dont think that for the end conclusion which is, you want to take away choices then be part of the solution…adopt…and adopt plenty of them.

204

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Is there any actual scientific evidence to support the idea that abortions effect the health of the woman?

From what I’ve read, women do not become scarred from having abortions. I would even go as far as saying it’s much more likely a woman would experience mental health issues from giving birth.

From what I’ve seen at least. If you guys have scientific evidence to contrary please share.

Edit: I mean MENTAL health.[/quote]

Seems so.

https://www.google.com/search?sugexp=chrome,mod=4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=health+effects+of+abortion

205

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
but seeing that killing the innocent human being that they have conceived is a greater evil.[/quote]

what if, and this is purely for conversation’s sake, the mother would loath the child? What if she could never recover from her injustice?

Would an un-loved, even hated child, as a product of the situation, change which action was a greater evil? PArticularly given what hatred, resentment and pain can do to an otherwise rational person?

EDIT: What I’m getting at is: Is there ever a situation that would be a greater evil than abortion?

I find the bold part profound.

I feel like both “options” are perminent. No?

Relief just seems like the wrong word maybe…

[quote]
I’m not sure on what you mean by this last question. Family/friends? Yes. [/quote]

I was thinking more like wife/girlfriend.

And I only ask because parents tend to think alike in that they will pick the kids’ interests first. It is kinda just what you do. So I was really just fishing to see if you were a Dad, because you put the kids’ interests first as well.

Young single men tend to put themselves and their “pussy” first.

But that is speculation and I cannot back that up with fact, and also understand there are exceptions to the rule.

206

I asked for the traits which the unborn do NOT possess, please be very specific. Again a source would be greatly appreciated.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:

  • well depending on where you are in the development process the answer could go from “all” to “most” to “some” to “none”, and that makes a big difference. [/quote]
207

You could read the previous thread shrug or I can even find the articles proving what you ask AFTER you go to an abortion facility in Canada and talk with the people who protest outside of the death mill. I guarantee there will be at least one post-abortive woman there who is trying to help the girls who are about to make the mistake of slaughtering their own child. Something tells me this will never happen though. I didn’t intend this as an attack to you raj, I just know human nature.

Please prove me wrong, by all means prove me wrong.

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Is there any actual scientific evidence to support the idea that abortions effect the health of the woman?

From what I’ve read, women do not become scarred from having abortions. I would even go as far as saying it’s much more likely a woman would experience mental health issues from giving birth.

From what I’ve seen at least. If you guys have scientific evidence to contrary please share.

Edit: I mean MENTAL health.[/quote]

208

[quote]Cortes wrote:

And we all know what benign matronly society’s those based upon “reason” have turned out to be, don’t we?

Your little slantwise comment about personal feelings “looming large” for me is absolutely correct, but not in the way you mean it. I am experienced enough to understand that you cannot make decisions reliably without using BOTH scientific data AND personal feelings as means of discernment. This is true in all aspects of life.[/quote]

Yes I use both too. I am talking about believing something solely on personal experience even in the face of overwhelming or strong evidence to the contrary.

209

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Let me ask you a question, raj:

Do you think that science, data and numbers are ALWAYS better than human feelings in making decisions or solving problems? [/quote]

When the science, data and numbers overwhelmingly support a conclusion sure. You’ll generally be better off.

I can understand skepticism, or choosing to go with personal experience in a grey area or when the data doesn’t yield a conclusive answer.

210

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Is there any actual scientific evidence to support the idea that abortions effect the health of the woman?

From what I’ve read, women do not become scarred from having abortions. I would even go as far as saying it’s much more likely a woman would experience mental health issues from giving birth.

From what I’ve seen at least. If you guys have scientific evidence to contrary please share.

Edit: I mean MENTAL health.[/quote]

Seems so.

https://www.google.com/search?sugexp=chrome,mod=4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=health+effects+of+abortion[/quote]

Linking me to Google… thanks?

211

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
You could read the previous thread shrug or I can even find the articles proving what you ask AFTER you go to an abortion facility in Canada and talk with the people who protest outside of the death mill. I guarantee there will be at least one post-abortive woman there who is trying to help the girls who are about to make the mistake of slaughtering their own child. Something tells me this will never happen though. I didn’t intend this as an attack to you raj, I just know human nature.

Please prove me wrong, by all means prove me wrong.
[/quote]

I’m not sure what the point of that would be. How many women have you spoken to that have no regrets about having an abortion? Would that somehow matter?

212

[quote]therajraj wrote:
You could argue that forcing a woman to give birth to her rapists child would further damage her mental health.

[/quote]

It’s lose-lose-lose for rape victims. If they kill it, they live with rape and guilt for the abortion. If they don’t they carry a rapist’s child. In either case, they were still raped and cannot be unraped.
It’s still wrong to kill it, but I don’t have a good answer for the woman, it’s the worst of situations.

213

So lets see here:

As posted a couple of pages back:

http://www.contraceptionjournal.org/article/S0010-7824(08)00369-7/abstract

Abstract
Claims that women who have elective abortions will experience psychological distress have fueled much of the recent debate on abortion. It has been argued that the emotional sequelae of abortion may not occur until months or years after the event. Despite unclear evidence on such a phenomenon, adverse mental health outcomes of abortion have been used as a rationale for policy-making.

We systematically searched for articles focused on the potential association between abortion and long-term mental health outcomes published between January 1, 1989 and August 1, 2008 and reviewed 21 studies that met the inclusion criteria. We rated the study quality based on methodological factors necessary to appropriately explore the research question. Studies were rated as Excellent (no studies), Very Good (4 studies), Fair (8 studies), Poor (8 studies), or Very Poor (1 study).

A clear trend emerges from this systematic review: the highest quality studies had findings that were mostly neutral, suggesting few, if any, differences between women who had abortions and their respective comparison groups in terms of mental health sequelae. Conversely, studies with the most flawed methodology found negative mental health sequelae of abortion.

Now lets see what the American Psychological Association has to say

http://www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/abortion/index.aspx

“None of the literature reviewed adequately addressed the prevalence of mental health problems among women in the United States who have had an abortion. In general, however, the prevalence of mental health problems observed among women in the United States who had a single, legal, first-trimester abortion for nontherapeutic reasons was consistent with normative rates of comparable mental health problems in the general population of women in the United States.
Nonetheless, it is clear that some women do experience sadness, grief, and feelings of loss following termination of a pregnancy, and some experience clinically significant disorders, including depression and anxiety. However, the TFMHA reviewed no evidence sufficient to support the claim that an observed association between abortion history and mental health was caused by the abortion per se, as opposed to other factors.”

214

A review of methodologically sound studies of the psychological responses of U.S. women after they obtained legal, nonrestrictive abortions indicates that distress is generally greatest before the abortion and that the incidence of severe negative responses is low. Factors associated with increased risk of negative response are consistent with those reported in research on other stressful life events.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/248/4951/41

215

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
You could argue that forcing a woman to give birth to her rapists child would further damage her mental health.

[/quote]

But what, at least in your opinion, makes her mental health more important than the child’s life?[/quote]

I personally consider it a greater injustice to force a rape victim to give birth to her rapists child than I would an abortion. On some level I see passing on one’s seed as a privilege, and someone taking that privilege by force doesn’t personally sit well with me.

You could say I am putting the woman’s mental health/quality of life in higher priority than the fetus. Fine.

But the opposite position, you are putting the fetus’s wellbeing above the mothers.[/quote]

Choosing life is never the wrong answer. Even if you were right about the mental well being thing life is still more important than and emotional state.

Here’s the problem with your scenario, you think you know how the woman would feel and you don’t. It’s way more complicated than simply picking a one thing over another. Killing the child will not make make the rape go-away. Stilling a human-life elicits powerful emotions in a person. It’s not so simple as just aborting the child and sunny days are ahead. The psychology of rape victims is not so clear cut. And nobody knows except the victims and it’s best not to pretend we do know.
No matter what, the rape will affect that person for the rest of their life.

This very article speaks to the myth you perpetuate.

“But in the only major study of pregnant rape victims ever done prior to this book, Dr. Sandra Mahkorn found that 75 to 85 percent did not have abortions”

You think you know, but you don’t and it’s best to not pretend you do. I mean “you” as in all of us, not you specifically.

216

It seems like I have been saying this quite a bit, but I must because the people I meet are much more real than a hypothetical case.

Two years ago I met a guy from Brazil. Through talking with him about life I learned that back in the 70’s his mother went to a doctor where she was informed an abortion was needed because the pregnancy would cause her death. She refused to accept that diagnosis and she went to another physician for obviously a second opinion. Again she refused to abort the child because the doctors told her that a problem was eminent. Fast forward three decades and she passed from natural causes and Adriano is an awesome friend.

The number of women who can potentially die due to pregnancy is extremely low. ~13 per every 100,000 - Chartbooks | MCHB - yet the numbers don’t show a clear correlation because of obesity, suicide, homicide, etc. and the other methods that might end the life of the mother.

In addition, medicine in this country is far more evolved and accessible than say for a woman on the plains of Africa during the summer.

[quote]maverick88 wrote:
People use the mother’s life is at risk argument all the time but, how many mothers would choose their lives over their childrens? If the fetus is really equal to a newborn child, I would think all mothers would take the risk.

I really have not made up my mind on the issue I have just been thinking about that for a while.[/quote]

217

[quote]pat wrote:

Choosing life is never the wrong answer. Even if you were right about the mental well being thing life is still more important than and emotional state. [/quote]

[quote]pat wrote:

Here’s the problem with your scenario, you think you know how the woman would feel and you don’t. It’s way more complicated than simply picking a one thing over another. [/quote]

I agree. That’s why I think in the instance of rape the victim should be left to decide whether she wants to have an abortion or carry the child to term.

[quote]pat wrote:

Killing the child will not make make the rape go-away. Stilling a human-life elicits powerful emotions in a person. It’s not so simple as just aborting the child and sunny days are ahead. [/quote]

Actually, based on what I posted, most women do not have an increase in mental health issues as a result of an abortion. That was the point.

[quote]pat wrote:

The psychology of rape victims is not so clear cut. And nobody knows except the victims and it’s best not to pretend we do know.[/quote]

Agreed. Again I’m not saying an abortion should be mandatory after a rape

[quote]pat wrote:

No matter what, the rape will affect that person for the rest of their life. [/quote]

Agreed.

[quote]pat wrote:

This very article speaks to the myth you perpetuate.

“But in the only major study of pregnant rape victims ever done prior to this book, Dr. Sandra Mahkorn found that 75 to 85 percent did not have abortions”

[/quote]

Do you really expect me to take an article from a pro-life site seriously? Please review the scholarly sources I posted.

Pat how seriously would you take a link from a prochoice site as evidence?

218

Myths 2-5 on page two.

I have the deepest sympathies for a woman who has been raped. I see the original act to be horrible and unjustifiable act. Yet in the end if she were to conceive a child, oh the great gift she would have! I, Brother Chris, ask him if you doubt me pat, Cortes, and many of the other posters here and IRL have NEVER been for taking away the choices of a mother. I believe they deserve every option they would want!

Self imposed ignorance is why I have a problem with your claim that a more heinous and violent act will erase the original act from memory. Explain your thought process please to prove me wrong.

Back in '96, there was a total of 34 pregnancies that resulted from rape. Are you trying to argue a case for the whole or just a select, tiny few? - Rape-related pregnancy: estimates and descriptive characteristics from a national sample of women - PubMed - Please do some research yourself before you make random claims.

I presume you know women who have been raped and they shared how they felt. Am I mistaken?

[quote]storey420 wrote:
Your statement belies the root of the argument that has been dragged out over this thread and everyone like it. Murdering a person. I’m sorry but I dont think a mass of cells (in that 2 months or less window) is a person. Take it out of the mother and it dies, period. So no Im not arguing for murdering people, Im arguing for a woman to have the right to choose in certain cases what she does with those mass of cells growing inside her.
But again it doesnt really matter if you do or dont think that for the end conclusion which is, you want to take away choices then be part of the solution…adopt…and adopt plenty of them.[/quote]

219

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

Choosing life is never the wrong answer. Even if you were right about the mental well being thing life is still more important than and emotional state.

[quote]pat wrote:

Here’s the problem with your scenario, you think you know how the woman would feel and you don’t. It’s way more complicated than simply picking a one thing over another. [/quote]

I agree. That’s why I think a rape should be left to decide of whether she wants to have an abortion or carry the child to term.

[quote]pat wrote:

Killing the child will not make make the rape go-away. Stilling a human-life elicits powerful emotions in a person. It’s not so simple as just aborting the child and sunny days are ahead. [/quote]

Actually, based on what I posted, most women do not have an increase in mental health issues as a result of an abortion. That was point.

[quote]pat wrote:

The psychology of rape victims is not so clear cut. And nobody knows except the victims and it’s best not to pretend we do know.[/quote]

Agreed. Again I’m not saying an abortion should be mandatory after a rape

[quote]pat wrote:

No matter what, the rape will affect that person for the rest of their life. [/quote]

Agreed.

[quote]pat wrote:

This very article speaks to the myth you perpetuate.

“But in the only major study of pregnant rape victims ever done prior to this book, Dr. Sandra Mahkorn found that 75 to 85 percent did not have abortions”

[/quote]

Do you really expect me to take an article from a pro-life site seriously? Please review the scholarly sources I posted. [/quote]

I can’t read this til you fix the quotes…

220

In the previous thread I answered questions very similar to the ones you ask. I mean no disrespect or anything to you for trying to understand one side of the debate compared to the other.

As for the women who have NO regrets, I can honestly say that I have met less than a handful who have no regrets after an abortion. Now my interaction with post abortive women is quite low because I am a man and women tend to not talk with the opposite sex. One girl I talked with quite extensively and she celebrates the memory of her child, every year on the anniversary of the death of her daughter. Secondly, the majority of the women I have met who do regret abortion have been on the sidewalk protesting with me. Generally on a sidewalk outside a PP death mill. During my time of protesting there was one girl who came up and insisted that she had an abortion, with no regrets. However that person is irrelevant because her child was killed and sucked up a glass tube. Horrendous acts in my mind.

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I’m not sure what the point of that would be. How many women have you spoken to that have no regrets about having an abortion? Would that somehow matter?
[/quote]