[quote]Cortes wrote:
On top of that, the population of women who actually get pregnant as a result of rape is, I believe, extremely small. [/quote]
It is my understanding you are correct as well, and thankfully.
I think it is an interesting aspect of the argument, as it seems it would cause a conflict internally. Like both options are awful, so, what the hell do you do?
Like I said, I ask mainly to hear what other people think because of just that.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
You could argue that forcing a woman to give birth to her rapists child would further damage her mental health.
[/quote]
But what, at least in your opinion, makes her mental health more important than the child’s life?[/quote]
I personally consider it a greater injustice to force a rape victim to give birth to her rapists child than I would an abortion. On some level I see passing on one’s seed as a privilege, and someone taking that privilege by force doesn’t personally sit well with me.
You could say I am putting the woman’s mental health/quality of life in higher priority than the fetus. Fine.
But the opposite position, you are putting the fetus’s wellbeing above the mothers.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
You could argue that forcing a woman to give birth to her rapists child would further damage her mental health.
[/quote]
I love how her mental health is probably not an issue when she’s having an abortion, but it is when she’s “forced” to not murder her child.
Raj, studies aside, have you ever met any girls who’ve had abortions who’ve talked to you personally about the experience? Not just known girls who’ve had abortions. I mean people who are close to you, who have actually related their experiences about their abortions to you?
I have. I don’t give a shit what some study says about a random sampling of women’s “mental health.” You had better damned well believe the friends I have known, and there have been more than a few, were INDEED WELL MENTALLY DAMAGED by their experiences.
Try thinking as a human from time to time. You may find the experience refreshing.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
You could argue that forcing a woman to give birth to her rapists child would further damage her mental health.
[/quote]
What percentage of abortions are the result of a rape in the US ?
Hint : if it was the vast majority of the cases, we wouldn’t have this discussion.
[quote]kamui wrote:
Hint : if it was the vast majority of the cases, we wouldn’t have this discussion. [/quote]
Why not?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
Can’t we just put this to rest and say pre 3 months in cases of rape, etc.vor if it endangers the life of the mother =begrudgingly acceptable, those that are anti-in all cases, well you’d better have at least 2 or 3 adopted kids or STFU[/quote]
I have 5 adopted brothers. But, I’m not sure what this has to do with not being willing to accept the killing of innocent human beings. Did Germans have to adopt Jews to be against the Holocaust now?[/quote]
Bit of a strawman but my point is that if you want to take away (and Im not saying you personally do) any options for abortion (totally illegal and consider under any circumstance its murder) then by proxy you should bear the responsibility of raising some of these unwanted children once they go up for adoption lest you be a hypocrite.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]andy.steven wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
My own opinion on the matter: A woman who is willing to kill her child is either in need of mental help and/or some kind of sustenance, either way her culpability is usually lacking criminally.
[/quote]
I certainly could agree with this viewpoint, to a degree. I do think this only applies to a certain set of scared, desperate women, though. There are some very bad ones out there, too, who willingly, knowingly use abortion as birth control, and do it again and again. This is purely criminal, in my opinion. Purely evil.
But, again, I cannot presently think of any reliable way to prosecute someone like this without creating a host of other problems.
I do think that, for the other women, who really do not want to do it but feel there is no other choice, just to have the idea accepted and justified by law that you are committing actual murder when you undergo an abortion would be enough to further severely curtail abortions that might otherwise have occurred.
Or, rather, that are occurring, right now. [/quote]
i agree with this to an extent… i believe the women should have to provide a good reason why this course of action is being take to their peers. Just being irresponsible and not wanting that life you created isn’t enough… rape/incest on the other hand i think should be allowable.
My uncle told my cousin when he was17, after he just informed him he was going to be a grandpa, “its the fucking you get for the fucking you got”
same as a crime (figuratively speaking) dont do the crime if you cant do the time
every decision has consequences and repercussions that 99% of the time you know in advance. live with your choices[/quote]
So, if a human being is a product of rape or incest they are sub-human are allowed to be killed?[/quote]
@ brother chris
the reason I made the rape/incest comment is to show that in some case an bortion should be allowable. those are, im sure, only a small precentage of actual abortion cases. however, imagine if your a female and raped… do you want a kid thats half of your rapist or that was inbreed?
just some food for thought, just saying sometimes there is a gray area, not everything is blak and white
[quote]andy.steven wrote:
just some food for thought, [/quote]
No actually it is an appeal to emotion, I believe.
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
Can’t we just put this to rest and say pre 3 months in cases of rape, etc.vor if it endangers the life of the mother =begrudgingly acceptable, those that are anti-in all cases, well you’d better have at least 2 or 3 adopted kids or STFU[/quote]
I have 5 adopted brothers. But, I’m not sure what this has to do with not being willing to accept the killing of innocent human beings. Did Germans have to adopt Jews to be against the Holocaust now?[/quote]
Bit of a strawman but my point is that if you want to take away (and Im not saying you personally do) any options for abortion (totally illegal and consider under any circumstance its murder) then by proxy you should bear the responsibility of raising some of these unwanted children once they go up for adoption lest you be a hypocrite.[/quote]
Why? It wasn’t me who put my penis in those women.
Please, I really want to hear your reasoning. Why? Please explain how you reached the above conclusion.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:
Hint : if it was the vast majority of the cases, we wouldn’t have this discussion. [/quote]
Why not?[/quote]
We’d be futurist version of Conan the Barbarian’s society?
[quote]Cortes wrote:
I love how her mental health is probably not an issue when she’s having an abortion, but it is when she’s “forced” to not murder her child.
Raj, studies aside, have you ever met any girls who’ve had abortions who’ve talked to you personally about the experience? Not just known girls who’ve had abortions. I mean people who are close to you, who have actually related their experiences about their abortions to you? [/quote]
No I haven’t.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
I have. I don’t give a shit what some study says about a random sampling of women’s “mental health.” You had better damned well believe the friends I have known, and there have been more than a few, were INDEED WELL MENTALLY DAMAGED by their experiences.
Try thinking as a human from time to time. You may find the experience refreshing. [/quote]
Well I can see that personal experience/personal feelings looms large with you, not just here but in general.
However, from studying statistics and dealing with numbers on a regular basis, I have found this is not a reliable way to make decisions.
Take a simple example. If you met 5 people from Sweden, and every one of them happen to be black, wouldn’t your personal experience lead you to believe Sweden was a very black country (assuming you didn’t know anything about Sweden)?
I can’t ignore the medical community’s findings simply because I have personally seen a handful of cases that contradict them.
[quote]kamui wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
You could argue that forcing a woman to give birth to her rapists child would further damage her mental health.
[/quote]
What percentage of abortions are the result of a rape in the US ?
Hint : if it was the vast majority of the cases, we wouldn’t have this discussion. [/quote]
That’s great, but we are arguing the justification of an abortion on this basis. Not abortion on demand.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:
Hint : if it was the vast majority of the cases, we wouldn’t have this discussion. [/quote]
Why not?[/quote]
We’d be futurist version of Conan the Barbarian’s society? [/quote]
haha, fair enough.
I guess I read his comment like: “if the only time it was legal was in the case of rape, then…”
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:
Hint : if it was the vast majority of the cases, we wouldn’t have this discussion. [/quote]
Why not?[/quote]
We’d be futurist version of Conan the Barbarian’s society? [/quote]
Basically, yes.
That or there would be so few abortions that we wouldn’t have legalized it in the first place. Depenalized in case of rape/incest/alien abduction/etc maybe. But not legalized.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
You could argue that forcing a woman to give birth to her rapists child would further damage her mental health.
[/quote]
What percentage of abortions are the result of a rape in the US ?
Hint : if it was the vast majority of the cases, we wouldn’t have this discussion. [/quote]
That’s great, but we are arguing the justification of an abortion on this basis. Not abortion on demand.
[/quote]
Ok.
Then, no, that does not justify an abortion.
That may justify some kind of legal forgiveness however. But that’s not the same thing.
The only thing that could justify an abortion is if the mother’s life is at risk.
An imminent risk.
But we don’t need a specific law for this. It already exists. That’s called “justifiable homicide”.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
I love how her mental health is probably not an issue when she’s having an abortion, but it is when she’s “forced” to not murder her child.
Raj, studies aside, have you ever met any girls who’ve had abortions who’ve talked to you personally about the experience? Not just known girls who’ve had abortions. I mean people who are close to you, who have actually related their experiences about their abortions to you? [/quote]
No I haven’t.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
I have. I don’t give a shit what some study says about a random sampling of women’s “mental health.” You had better damned well believe the friends I have known, and there have been more than a few, were INDEED WELL MENTALLY DAMAGED by their experiences.
Try thinking as a human from time to time. You may find the experience refreshing. [/quote]
Well I can see that personal experience/personal feelings looms large with you, not just here but in general.
However, from studying statistics and dealing with numbers on a regular basis, I have found this is not a reliable way to make decisions.
Take a simple example. If you met 5 people from Sweden, and every one of them happen to be black, wouldn’t your personal experience lead you to believe Sweden was a very black country (assuming you didn’t know anything about Sweden)?
I can’t ignore the medical community’s findings simply because I have personally seen a handful of cases that contradict them.
[/quote]
And we all know what benign matronly society’s those based upon “reason” have turned out to be, don’t we?
Your little slantwise comment about personal feelings “looming large” for me is absolutely correct, but not in the way you mean it. I am experienced enough to understand that you cannot make decisions reliably without using BOTH scientific data AND personal feelings as means of discernment. This is true in all aspects of life. Try operating a business based purely upon data, statistics, papers and theory. I promise you, you will fail spectacularly in any field that involves a customer. Life is no different.
I prefer to have more tools, rather than throwing out perfectly good ones just because I have an idea that ones I already own are somehow better. The day will come when you are going to need one of those tools, as the job required both sets. Not all life is “science.” Most certainly not when we are talking about life itself.
Let me ask you a question, raj:
Do you think that science, data and numbers are ALWAYS better than human feelings in making decisions or solving problems?
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
Can’t we just put this to rest and say pre 3 months in cases of rape, etc.vor if it endangers the life of the mother =begrudgingly acceptable, those that are anti-in all cases, well you’d better have at least 2 or 3 adopted kids or STFU[/quote]
I have 5 adopted brothers. But, I’m not sure what this has to do with not being willing to accept the killing of innocent human beings. Did Germans have to adopt Jews to be against the Holocaust now?[/quote]
Bit of a strawman but my point is that if you want to take away (and Im not saying you personally do) any options for abortion (totally illegal and consider under any circumstance its murder) then by proxy you should bear the responsibility of raising some of these unwanted children once they go up for adoption lest you be a hypocrite.[/quote]
Why? It wasn’t me who put my penis in those women.
Please, I really want to hear your reasoning. Why? Please explain how you reached the above conclusion.
[/quote]
No doubt you didnt put your penis in her, just like I didnt put that snickers in fatties’ mouth that wants me to chip in for their universal healthcare.
Point being that while I am on your side in that I do believe it is the wrong thing to do, I also believe there are circumstances where it should be allowed but more importantly I dont think my moral compass should be imposed on the woman that has to actually carry and then care for the child.
If you’re for some specific instances allowing it to happen then cool, those that are against any choice in the matter then you are saying because of my moral compass, you need to bring that child into this world (broken home be damned) and invariably when that child goes into social institutions like an orphanage it will need parents and who better to take up that responsibility than those that vehemently opposed the right of choice of another (also they must have a higher moral compass so the kid would seemingly have a shot at a better upbringing)
Does that make sense (dont have to agree but seeing if that makes any sense)
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]storey420 wrote:
Can’t we just put this to rest and say pre 3 months in cases of rape, etc.vor if it endangers the life of the mother =begrudgingly acceptable, those that are anti-in all cases, well you’d better have at least 2 or 3 adopted kids or STFU[/quote]
I have 5 adopted brothers. But, I’m not sure what this has to do with not being willing to accept the killing of innocent human beings. Did Germans have to adopt Jews to be against the Holocaust now?[/quote]
Bit of a strawman but my point is that if you want to take away (and Im not saying you personally do) any options for abortion (totally illegal and consider under any circumstance its murder) then by proxy you should bear the responsibility of raising some of these unwanted children once they go up for adoption lest you be a hypocrite.[/quote]
Why? It wasn’t me who put my penis in those women.
Please, I really want to hear your reasoning. Why? Please explain how you reached the above conclusion.
[/quote]
No doubt you didnt put your penis in her, just like I didnt put that snickers in fatties’ mouth that wants me to chip in for their universal healthcare.
Point being that while I am on your side in that I do believe it is the wrong thing to do, I also believe there are circumstances where it should be allowed but more importantly I dont think my moral compass should be imposed on the woman that has to actually carry and then care for the child.
If you’re for some specific instances allowing it to happen then cool, those that are against any choice in the matter then you are saying because of my moral compass, you need to bring that child into this world (broken home be damned) and invariably when that child goes into social institutions like an orphanage it will need parents and who better to take up that responsibility than those that vehemently opposed the right of choice of another (also they must have a higher moral compass so the kid would seemingly have a shot at a better upbringing)
Does that make sense (dont have to agree but seeing if that makes any sense)[/quote]
But we don’t get to choose to murder people, so the whole point is moot. You are arguing that we should allow murder in order to make society somehow “better.” I’m not buying that for one second.
See my syllogism above for clarification.
[quote]kamui wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
You could argue that forcing a woman to give birth to her rapists child would further damage her mental health.
[/quote]
What percentage of abortions are the result of a rape in the US ?
Hint : if it was the vast majority of the cases, we wouldn’t have this discussion. [/quote]
That’s great, but we are arguing the justification of an abortion on this basis. Not abortion on demand.
[/quote]
Ok.
Then, no, that does not justify an abortion.
That may justify some kind of legal forgiveness however. But that’s not the same thing.
The only thing that could justify an abortion is if the mother’s life is at risk.
An imminent risk.
But we don’t need a specific law for this. It already exists. That’s called “justifiable homicide”.
[/quote]
People use the mother’s life is at risk argument all the time but, how many mothers would choose their lives over their childrens? If the fetus is really equal to a newborn child, I would think all mothers would take the risk.
I really have not made up my mind on the issue I have just been thinking about that for a while.