My point is
i). I power snatched 115kg. That is not something even big, strong guys are capable of without training specifically for it.
However:
ii). My deadlift dropped to the low 400s because I changed my pulling style so I didn’t fuck up the 1st pull of the OLs. Anyone who has put in a couple of years training the deadlift would have been stronger than me.
Was I strong or weak?
Yeah those are not people I compare myself to if I’m chasing numbers especially if they have not been training long. It would be like calling a big framed beginner weak.
the discussion is still about being big and lean (ie muscular) without being strong. You didn’t post examples, you posted some nonsense about guys in your gym your skinny-fat buddies are lifting more than.[quote=“craze9, post:136, topic:215039”]
Key word is “proportionally”, and I’m not sure what it means. Are you saying guys who don’t do side and rear delt raises will have weird-looking delts? That their delts will remain small overall, despite increasing muscle mass across the whole body? Do you contend that football players or other performance athletes who don’t do such exercises are doomed to small delts and “disproportionate” physiques? I’ve seen you recommend 5/3/1 to guys on this site – the term “lateral raise” does not occur ONE SINGLE TIME in Jim Wendler’s 5/3/1 e-book. Why do you think this is?
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You don’t know what proportionally means? That’s kind of embarrassing for you but ok.
And you do realise that football players and performance athletes do train their lateral delts? It’s not just about size; it’s about injury prevention.
And if you think Wendler’s book somehow disproves my points: Thibaudeau has an article on the front page of the site RIGHT NOW about how much more muscular the Chinese O-lifters are because they do things like lateral raises and curls. You have someone to quote; I have someone to quote
(and the 5/3/1 example is dumb anyway because he says in the original book you can pretty much do whatever the fuck you like)
HIs shoulders wouldn’t be as wide. I still can’t believe you are struggling to deal with this so much
And I am going to spell out for YOU because not being a retard doesn’t seem to be your thing that an average guy who wants well developed shoulders needs to do lateral raises just like any other guy who wants decent shoulders, so NOT including them in a program like 5x5 is just setting yourself up for playing catch up in the future.[quote=“craze9, post:136, topic:215039”]
I don’t know what 5x5 program you’re referring to, or if you’re just making stuff up, but I’ve never recommended a program without any direct arm work, and really don’t think I go around making blanket recommendations of any program at all, on this forum
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I wanted to be sure I was right about that so I checked Madcow and yep, no direct arm work.[quote=“craze9, post:136, topic:215039”]
But I’m a nimrod!
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Oh thank god you FINALLY got something right. At least this discussion wasn’t a complete waste of time.
I remember Jim used to say something like this years ago until he was bombarded with post after post by people asking for specifics in the most minute stuff. There was an FAQ where he said you can ramp up the sets for assistance work, which would make 531 essentially… gasp… a BODYBUILDING PROGRAM.
No, no, no, no, no.
God dt79, I would think you of ALL people would get it. Wendler doesn’t specifically green light lateral raises so obviously there’s no value and every single person who has used them to create awesome shoulders was wrong.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’ve got a 5x5 to do.
I feel the same way about strict OHP. I don’t understand how such little weight moves so slowly.
Well, I actually don’t think it’s so obvious whether a big guy, or not-big guy, is strong. I don’t think you can necessarily tell just from looking at them. There are signs – development of certain muscles, like traps – and there are extremes – a hugely jacked guy or a really skinny/small guy – but most guys in the grey area between that? I am skeptical that you can tell how strong they are just from looking at them.
Actually, I’m fine with whatever definition of “strong” you guys want to suggest.
Yes, that’s part of what I’m saying. The other part is that it’s possible to build muscle – especially mirror muscles that enhance the appearance of a physique – without getting particularly strong.
The answer to this question is "because Jim Wendler prefers the term ‘side raise’.
pg 65 of Beyond 5/3/1-“Shoulder raises (front, rear and side).” And then the paragraph goes on to explain how to implement them into the program.
However, on pg 69 he says “bent over lateral raises.”, so actually THERE is an instance of “lateral raise” being in the book.
And actually, on page 94 he flat out recommends “dumbbell lateral raises” as assistance work (along with dumbbell rear laterals).
Unless you were talking about in his 5/3/1 for powerlifting book, in which case he mentions performing lateral raises as an assistance exercise on page 26.
He goes back to using the term “side raise” on page 57 of the second edition of 5/3/1. It’s in jest that time (referring to someone as “Sgt Side Raise”), but I would say it still counts as appearing in the book.
It doesn’t ever appear in the First edition though. It’s only 97 pages, but still a great read, and an amazing value considering you can get it for like $5 on amazon.
Well, you can assume I have in mind a stupid definition of “strong”, such that a strong lifter who spends one training cycle not practicing the deadlift suddenly becomes “weak,” or you can assume we are working from whatever definition of “strong” you consider sensible.
What definition of “strong” do you have in mind, when you say it’s not possible for any guy to be both big and weak (not “strong”)?
What would qualify in your mind as an acceptable “example”?
My dear, dear Yogi. You’re really grasping at straws now, you poor soul. Logic 101 again…
The 5/3/1 example is “dumb” because Wendler says you can do anything you want? In other words, because he does not specifically recommend AGAINST lateral raises, this helps your case that the lateral raise is an “important training consideration” for the vast majority of lifters?
I said lateral raises would not “make a big difference” in the overall development of a physique. When you disagree, you are contending that they DO make a BIG DIFFERENCE. This was in the context of discussing “5x5” programs, and how your critique of them is that they don’t include lateral raises.
The fact that 5/3/1 – which you HAVE recommended – doesn’t include them either is an entirely salient point. (No one says you can’t add lateral raises to 5x5, anyway, if you love them so much. Who cares?) The question is whether they are an “important training consideration” that make a “big difference” in one’s physique. It is very clear to me, having seen many many different 5/3/1 templates, that Wendler does not consider them to be either of these things.
As far as CT goes… shall I list the programs of his that make zero mention of lateral raises? Here are the ones I have done myself, just in the past year or two: New Layer System, HP Mass, 6 Weeks to Superhero. I’m pretty sure the Russian Strength-Skill, and 915 don’t mention them either. Hmmm… why is that? Very strange that both CT and Wendler write multiple programs that don’t include a movement you claim is an “important training consideration” that makes a “big difference.”
Is that a reason not to do the above programs? Yes? No? But it is a reason not to do 5x5… curious!
And I am telling you that I disagree, that I see no evidence that lateral raises are necessary for “well-developed” shoulders.
The lateral raise can contribute to medial delt development, and someone who wants to prioritize and/or maximize medial delt development might as well do them, but they are not an “important training consideration” for most lifters, who are perfectly capable of developing “proportionate” delts without them, and they do not make a “big difference” in a lifter’s overall physique. This is why Wendler and CT don’t even include them in most of their programs - they are a minor consideration.
You really think every jacked guy in the history of the world either did lateral raises, or had “disproportionate” delt development? It’s silly.
You checked but somehow still got it wrong. Weighted Dips, Curls, and Tricep Extensions are done on Fridays (Day 3).
Are we having fun??
What is a mirror muscle? I don’t think I have muscles that appear/work in reflections alone.
Maybe it’s the power of youth(or more likely experience)? Were you up against younger guys or?
I have tried to explain this many times in previous posts. I was still capable of deadlifting much more but I did not specifically train it or execute the lift in a manner that maximized my leverages, therefore, I wouldn’t call myself weak. Likewise, I am not under any delusion that someone bigger than me would not be able power snatch more than I did if he had spent the time training it.
check out brain siders when he went to strongman he struggled in some of the events in competition
when people would come to my house for odd object lifting they would have a hard time with the items
i think it was elliot hulse who had a video on open gym day a guy could not load the 225 stone, after coaching he was able to do it,
“technique” “muscle patterns” people having trouble lifting something in a way they are not used to
i do not think they were “stronger” than you just more experianced with the movement
a big, muscular, lean guy who isn’t strong.[quote=“craze9, post:153, topic:215039”]
The 5/3/1 example is “dumb” because Wendler says you can do anything you want? In other words, because he does not specifically recommend AGAINST lateral raises, this helps your case that the lateral raise is an “important training consideration” for the vast majority of lifters?
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no, you using it was DUMB because there’s millions of things Wendler doesn’t mention in the book that still have their place. It worries me that you can’t see that.
because they DO you dumbass. They make your shoulders wider. Again, and I have no idea why you keep ignoring this point: every bodybuilder everywhere does them for exactly that purpose.
Why is that such a hard thing for you to accept? I cannot understand why you have such a problem with that. Everyone who cares about developing the width of their shoulders does lateral raises. It’s just fact.
And your CT thing is as dumb as everything else you say. He’s always talking about adding pump work for things like shoulders as additional work to his programs.[quote=“craze9, post:153, topic:215039”]
And I am telling you that I disagree, that I see no evidence that lateral raises are necessary for “well-developed” shoulders.
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Which is why you suck. You’d get your ass laughed off a bodybuilding forum for such nonsense, but the sad fact of T-Nation these days is we have beginners like you parroting the same dogma to other beginners in what is essentially a bukkake session with Rippetoe buried up to his neck in sand while you all cream all over him in sets of 5.
Seriously, go to one of the hardcore physique enhancement boards and try your shit there. Tell them lateral raises don’t make a difference and see what they say. Make sure you copy and paste the responses all telling you the same thing I am.
I mean god damn what is wrong with the universe when training your lateral delts for awesome shoulders is actually a point of disagreement?
And the really annoying thing is I have been where you are! I was just as ignorant and annoying as you, spouting off to people more developed. I bought into the same dogma that you’re so wrapped up in for YEARS and then I saw the light. But whatever, I wouldn’t have listened to me either so I guess there’s no point expecting you to.
It’ll come to you, one day.
it’s cos you spent all that time doing sets of 15, clearly.
Wahahaha omg hahahaha
Actually, a large portion of my normal training consists of lower reps unless my joints need a break so I’m strength training, not hypertrophy training. And since I’m on roids occasionally, I’m training the WRONG way because this only works for natural people.
I think it’s the power of being younger, older, or the same age as me, as guys who fell in all 3 categories whipped my ass.