I get it Yogi. I get it.
Why are you Yogi1 now?
But he’s on roidz! He’s the only person in the world who needs to train his lateral delts!
George Lehman likes mega high reps too
I know you do, it’s just annoying that others don’t despite being here for years.
The Yogi1 thing’s a mystery. I asked Chris but he has no idea and it seems like it’d be kind of a hassle for the powers that be to change it back so fuck it; I’ll stay as Yogi1.
I find what this ultimately boils down to is folks never performing a HARD set of 15 reps. A lot of these guys perform a set of 15 where your muscles are kinds tired by rep 15. They haven’t performed a set of 15 where by rep 6 you realized you have made a terrible mistake, by rep 11 you are breathing like a train whistle, and by the 15th rep you can’t actually hear the music blaring in your ear buds because your senses have started to fail.
@Alpha just posted a video in his log of a set of 22 reps at 405 on the SSB, and if you watch it there is no way you would conclude that such a set does not make one stronger.
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That’s a really good point. I think most people who do sets of 15-20 could probably knock out 30 reps if necessary.
Here’s a funny thing. If one’s 10 rep max on bench press was 225, I bet you’d see most people on here telling that person to work in lower rep ranges at heavier weights to get stronger. If one’s 10 rep max was 405, I think it would be generally assumed that performing 10 reps at that weight would make that person stronger.
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Check out Kroc’s Intensity DVD. Its on YouTube. He kinda trains like a body-builder. But it’s not 3x10. You can see a whole training session, not just 1 set. Its pretty informative.
Or Kaz’s famous Heavy Day/Light day, 6 times per week routine. Dude was benching for sets of 15 when he set the bench press record. He trained kinda like a BB’er, only with PL lifts.
The Clan/Phillipi DL routine uses stiff dl/row/pull down circuit to build some muscle before you really start pulling heavy heavy.
The lines are blurry
Don’t you have a video of squats, 315x23 or something ridiculous like that? How’d that feel?
Yea I did 315x20 like a year and a half ago I believe. Lungs were on fire, it was pretty tough. I think I’ve done it once since then. Wasn’t as bad the next time, as I was stronger by then. But it still sucked. It takes me like 15+ minutes of gasping for air to recover from that sort of thing. Towards the end of a set like that, Pwnisher’s observation holds 100% true. Your senses start to kinda fade, vision is blurry and weird, legs get numb kinda, you can’t really ‘feel’ your squats, if that makes sense. Like you have a general awareness that you’re still going, but it feels like you may not retain consciousness.
405x10 was very tough the first time I did it because it was right at my capacity. I’ve done 405x10 several times now. A couple of other things I’ve done that were pretty rough were a 405 deadlift x 20, and 495 x 12 I believe.
But, I mean, is it a REAL 10rm, or did they take a breath at rep 7 and actually make it a 7rm with 3 more reps? Hahaha.
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bwahahahahahhahahha
and 20 characters
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yeah, and it’s weird that they are. Like, why would beginners only be allowed to get stronger doing sets of 5? Why do beginners need to neglect bodyparts? Why do compound exercises supposedly stimulate everything for a beginner lifter but not for someone more advanced?
Who made these rules and why are they so pervasive?
Just pick a rep range - any rep range - and get stronger in it, and train everything. Seems so logical but it’s not, apparently.
haha!
I remember that guy
Somebody tries an “approach” instead of just doing whatever they please. Then they have some success. So they focus on the specifics of the approach, and not on why it worked. Then they get super into advocating for that style.
The “rules” get repeated over and over in headlines, trying to get clicks . “Why stretching sucks!” “the fastest possible way to gain!” “Gun to your head Broz/Bulgarian death Training for fastest gains humanly possible!”
That’s why we need experienced lifters, to help us see beyond the specifics of this approach or that style, and get down to the real fundamentals.
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And it was quickly pointed out that those numbers are obviously wrong. And in my first post I made it clear I wasn’t referring to that example.
I attempted to branch off into a wider discussion. Was this not clear? Is this not allowed?
I already posted two examples which you ignored. Are you saying they are strong? Or that they aren’t big?
I also never said or implied that a truly huge guy who has built a large amount of muscle in his life is going to be weak. Do I really have to keep repeating this?
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Genetics is the primary factor in how someone “appears”, and even casual lifters with big frames are going to look “bigger” than skinny “ectomorphic” guys from 10 feet away wearing t-shirts, in most cases, regardless of training advancement.
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Guys who do not consistently train heavy with big movements – which includes A LOT of guys lifting weights in commercial gyms – will usually not be strong.
Who’s going full retard now? I am small because of a lack of LATERAL RAISES? Hilarious.
Also, you don’t “know” that I don’t care about getting bigger. I never said anything of the sort, and it’s not true. Another example of your poor grasp of basic discussion / debate, and why it’s usually a waste of time on the internet – you make assumptions at every turn, resort to dumb vaguely insulting comments, and just generally assume you know the other guy’s position while making zero attempt to understand what he’s saying or give him credit for any basic intelligence.
Key word is “proportionally”, and I’m not sure what it means. Are you saying guys who don’t do side and rear delt raises will have weird-looking delts? That their delts will remain small overall, despite increasing muscle mass across the whole body? Do you contend that football players or other performance athletes who don’t do such exercises are doomed to small delts and “disproportionate” physiques? I’ve seen you recommend 5/3/1 to guys on this site – the term “lateral raise” does not occur ONE SINGLE TIME in Jim Wendler’s 5/3/1 e-book. Why do you think this is?
So… that bodybuilders do lateral raises is evidence that lateral raises “make a big difference” in one’s overall physique? That’s your argument?
Let me ask you this. Take your favorite natural bodybuilder, and imagine that he had never done a lateral raise in his life. How different would his physique by? How noticeable would the difference be, with a t-shirt on, to a casual observer, 10 feet away? I contend: not very different at all.
I’m going to spell it out for you because nuance doesn’t seem to be your thing: I’m not saying lateral raises are worthless or that no one should do them – I’m saying, per my quoted post above, that they aren’t an “important training consideration” for an average guy who wants to biuld muscle and strength and improve his physique, and that this is why including them in a program like 5x5 is not necessary. That is the context in which we’re discussing this.
I don’t know what 5x5 program you’re referring to, or if you’re just making stuff up, but I’ve never recommended a program without any direct arm work, and really don’t think I go around making blanket recommendations of any program at all, on this forum. But I’m a nimrod!
Depends what we mean by “appreciable amount of muscle mass”, but if we’re talking about “big” guys, I define that according to how the general public perceives them, and I think that makes sense.
So, a “big” guy isn’t necessarily a guy with a noticeable “power look,” as CT says. Trap development tends to indicate a foundation of strength, which I might notice but a casual observe would not. But a guy with big arms and a decent frame is going to appear just as big to most people, even with relatively mediocre legs/back/chest. And that’s my point – that it’s entirely possible that the latter guy is not really very strong.
I don’t understand your question, or its relevance to the topic, of big but weak guys. You were strong. Right? By what definition were you NOT strong?
I don’t claim to know or care about what works for people on steroids and don’t see what I said that indicated otherwise.
Yes, my question is why would you expect us to not be able to tell that someone is just big framed and probably not very strong? I wouldn’t use the definition of “big” on such a guy. Maybe a small guy might surprise me with a ridiculous deadlift or squat(funny how it’s never the bench) once in a while but I can usually tell who is strong and who isn’t.
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I think the issue with craze9 is that he/she/it compares strength only to the performance of the bench/squat/deadlift with a barbell. There are lots of other venues for strength.
Myself for example, I don’t think I’m very strong, but I am somewhat efficient at the movements I compete in (powerlifting), but my rep sets (anything over 8) are pathetic in comparison to my 1RM. I am pretty sure this is because I’m weak.
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Agree dt. We all know what muscle actually looks like, and it’s likely the case that many ‘regular’ people think fat guys who happen to have favorable fat distribution are more muscular than they actually are. Hell, even the fat guys themselves often overestimate their own strength/muscular development. I don’t think those people are really worth addressing, but that seems to be who craze is talking about, unless I’m misunderstanding him.
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a good point brady. I’ve been very humbled since I started training for strongman. I am inexplicably terrible at a few strongman events. The less an event resembles a barbell lift, it seems the worse I am. I won the max deadlift event at my last contest (the only even that was with a barbell), and came in last in the farmer’s walk, even though grip nor deadlift strength were limiting factors for me on that event. I deadlifted 600, and yet couldn’t walk for shit with 215 per hand, while other folks who could only deadlift under 500 fucking flew by me in the farmers.
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Farmers walks are a fucking bitch…
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