Terri Schiavo: More Grandstanding

[quote]veruvius wrote:

How 'bout he moved on with his life? Why abandoned? I do wonder about the feeding tube, but who are these doctors that feel she is rehabable? Have they actually examined her or dealt with her? What point is she rehabable to?[/quote]

If Michael Schiavo has moved on with his life, then why won’t he relinquish his control over his wife? Why not just divorce her? I can understand him wanting to move on, I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with him attempting to end her life when he already has a new one with another woman.

Also, I don’t believe that this is a political issue at all. At least it shouldn’t be. I’ve spoken to quite a few (at least 10) liberals who do not think she should die. I’ve also spoken to some (about 6) conservatives that think she should die. Personally, I think that her husband should have relinquished his power to her family 6 years ago, when he decided to move on with his life with another woman. If it’s his responsibility as her husband to make this decision, then all of the other responsibilities of a husband should come with it, should they not? That includes fidelity. Having two bastard children with another woman does not smack of fidelity.

Now, I’m not sure all of the demonization of Michael that’s going on here is completely justified. I just don’t believe that he is capable of making this decision now that he has moved on.

Either way, it’s a moot point now. She’s going to die and only Jeb Bush can stop it.

[quote]100meters wrote:
Joe Weider wrote:
Why are you trusting the doctors hired and paid for by Mike? The doctors who’re forthright in the right to kill movement?

I could ask you what makes you trust people who never examined Terri?[/quote]

Dude, she’s been examined by other doctors. You simply ignore the findings of everyone who doesn’t agree with you.
And that’s no way to have a debate…but it is a typical liberal tactic.

[quote]100meters wrote:
Joe Weider wrote:
Why are you trusting the doctors hired and paid for by Mike? The doctors who’re forthright in the right to kill movement?

I could ask you what makes you trust people who never examined Terri?[/quote]

But more importantly, why won’t you answer the question? I’ve asked it or some variation of it several times. You keep on ducking.
It gets tiresome.

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
100meters wrote:
Joe Weider wrote:
Why are you trusting the doctors hired and paid for by Mike? The doctors who’re forthright in the right to kill movement?

I could ask you what makes you trust people who never examined Terri?

Dude, she’s been examined by other doctors. You simply ignore the findings of everyone who doesn’t agree with you.
And that’s no way to have a debate…but it is a typical liberal tactic.[/quote]

WHO? Who personally examined her?

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
But more importantly, why won’t you answer the question? I’ve asked it or some variation of it several times. You keep on ducking.
[/quote]

How am I ducking? I trust the doctors that have physically examined Terri. This includes her ATTENDING physician, her court appointed physician, and the husband’s doctors whom all agree. If it were just the husband’s doctors, you’d have something, but it’s not. Your debating against a wealth of evidence. I’m not. I am not trusting Dr. Hammesfahr who a. lied about nobel nomination. b.disciplined by Florida Board of Medicine for charging patients for services not recieved:
http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/FinalOrders/03-17-03/DOH-03-0182.pdf\
Generally not something a reputable doctor does. In addition:
“Hammesfahr has been mentioned on Quackwatch, a Web site focusing on fraud and quackery in medicine. His articles have been turned down by well-known medical journals. And a Miami Beach neurologist has filed a complaint with the state accusing Hammesfahr of fraudulent advertising. “In my opinion, it’s irresponsible to market any treatment to the public before it has gone through the peer review process,” said Dr. Steven Novella, a Yale neurologist who wrote an article about Hammesfahr for Quackwatch.”

[quote]spartanpower wrote:
Either way, it’s a moot point now. She’s going to die and only Jeb Bush can stop it.[/quote]

He can if he want’s to be a liberal law man.

Anyway, the fact that her “husband” is interested in staying involved should suggest that his motives might be proper. He might really feel morally compelled here. Unless of course he’s planning on writing one hell of a book!

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
spartanpower wrote:
Either way, it’s a moot point now. She’s going to die and only Jeb Bush can stop it.

He can if he want’s to be a liberal law man.

Anyway, the fact that her “husband” is interested in staying involved should suggest that his motives might be proper. He might really feel morally compelled here. Unless of course he’s planning on writing one hell of a book!
[/quote]

his girlfriend is religious and won’t marry him if he’s divorced. Has to be widower to marry and make the bastards legal in the eyes of the church?
???

[quote]100meters wrote:
WHO? Who personally examined her? [/quote]

let’s see…according to the transcript you cut and pasted from Joe’s Show last night, 3 out of 7 who examined her said she wasn’t in the PVS. Even Dr. Death there had to agree with that.
That leaves 3 people at least, according to the AP.
And stop with the Hammesfahr.
I can put up cut and paste after paste to refute you. For every thing you post, I can counter. That gets us nowhere. Hell, I can even post positive reviews from his patients who’ve had huge improvements.

[quote]100meters wrote:

Whoops…The judge decided for Terri. Big difference and really the whole point.[/quote]

How you can characterize a judge sentencing someone to death by starvation and dehydration as deciding FOR that person is absolutely beyond me.

There are two reasons to kill someone in these types of cases.

The first reason is to save the patient agony. The second reason is for the convenience of the people involved.

Terri was not in pain before they started starving her.

Explain to me how this benefits Terri.

And please save the “nobody wants to live that way” argument. Of course nobody WANTS to live with severe brain damage.

Nobody has any idea what is going on in her mind. For all we know PVS might be enjoyable. I know a lot of couch potatoes that seem to enjoy that kind of lifestyle.

Joe, you keep ducking my question. How are you proposing we change the existing protocol for these situations?

This is directly to you Joe:

Current protocol = Attending Physician determines vegetative state → Legal Guardian gives informed consent. You either have to show that:

  1. This protocol was not followed, or more specifically that the husband pulled the feeding tube out without the attending physician’s consent.

  2. This protocol is flawed and even if the husband was a saint and the parents also wanted the feeding tube removed it should not be removed.

No matter how bad you make the husband look, or how much of a “whore” his new woman is, it’s irrelevant, really. So what’s your alternative? No ducking this time. You want congress to control these matters?

Tangentially:

Also, where’s the outrage over the law Bush signed in 1999? The state can pull the plug on people just like Terri, against the wishes of the legal guardian, if they can’t pay. Where’s the outrage?

Still waiting on Zeb to explain how abortion is a slippery slope, but the death penalty isn’t. Does anyone here really believe that we’ve never executed an innocent person? Assuming you believe we have and will continue to kill innocent people, then the mentality is: “we can live with killing a few innocent people if that’s the price we have to pay to get revenge”. Sounds like a slippery slope indeed.

Holy crap I can’t believe I’m finally caught up with all the posts I’ve missed in a week!

Anyway, there’s a lot of people here who are basically saying “let her body go on living no matter what” and anybody who disagrees with them is a “deathmonger” or something like that.

Add me to the list, fellas. I’m a total freakin’ deathmonger, and I’m not the last bit ashamed of it.

The girl’s body is alive. Her brain is mush. Grab a syringe full of morphine and stop this friggin’ lunacy, folks. We are nicer to our cats, for cryin’ out loud.

If your reason for continuing this charade of a life is because there might be a cure someday:

She would have to regenerate her own brain. I don’t see how this is even an issue here. You don’t start CPR on someone who has had their head cut off. There will NEVER be a “cure”. The best we could do in some sci-fi way is stick some more brain matter in there and create a new personality in the host body that still has a functioning brainstem. This is pretty Frankenstein-ish, and I like it in an “Invasion of the Body Snatchers” way, but come on. Say your goodbyes and let the girl’s body die.

mufasa: i think the steroid and schiavo case are clear attempts of the bush administration’s and mass media’s attempts at misinforming the public and keeping us unaware of the important issues going on.

clearly there are more critical stories to be told… bu what do we see every time we turn on an american news station? the same 2-second video clip of terri ‘responding’ to communication.

i can tell you this: the mass media is not fooling me!

the more i read and learn about terri’s case and other similar cases, the more i’m outraged with those who are opposed to dignified euhtanasia and right-to-die cases.

it’s horrible that anyone would want anyone else to continue on in such a state. disgusting, IMO.

actually, terri decided for herself. she told her husband she would want to continue on ‘living’ this way. there is no reason to suspect that michael schiavo would make up his story for some sort of personal benefit… since he was awarded all the money 10 years ago. not to mention his acts of care for terri following her accident.

regarding her death by starvation, i do find that a bit strange, although i doubt her current level of functioning will allow her to feel any discomfort/agony.

as far as the reasons for killing terri, they are relieving her from agony… although not physical agony. she has no dignity and no purpose in life, anymore. and her own wishes were not to ever continue living in such a state.

you suggestion that PVS is enjoyable is quite sick, as it strips a person of what is important in life: meaningful communication with others, personal growth, self-fulfillment, dignity, and self-sufficiency.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
100meters wrote:

Whoops…The judge decided for Terri. Big difference and really the whole point.

How you can characterize a judge sentencing someone to death by starvation and dehydration as deciding FOR that person is absolutely beyond me.

There are two reasons to kill someone in these types of cases.

The first reason is to save the patient agony. The second reason is for the convenience of the people involved.

Terri was not in pain before they started starving her.

Explain to me how this benefits Terri.

And please save the “nobody wants to live that way” argument. Of course nobody WANTS to live with severe brain damage.

Nobody has any idea what is going on in her mind. For all we know PVS might be enjoyable. I know a lot of couch potatoes that seem to enjoy that kind of lifestyle.

[/quote]

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
Joe, you keep ducking my question. How are you proposing we change the existing protocol for these situations?

This is directly to you Joe:

Current protocol = Attending Physician determines vegetative state → Legal Guardian gives informed consent. You either have to show that:

  1. This protocol was not followed, or more specifically that the husband pulled the feeding tube out without the attending physician’s consent.

  2. This protocol is flawed and even if the husband was a saint and the parents also wanted the feeding tube removed it should not be removed.

No matter how bad you make the husband look, or how much of a “whore” his new woman is, it’s irrelevant, really. So what’s your alternative? No ducking this time. You want congress to control these matters?

Tangentially:

Also, where’s the outrage over the law Bush signed in 1999? The state can pull the plug on people just like Terri, against the wishes of the legal guardian, if they can’t pay. Where’s the outrage?

Still waiting on Zeb to explain how abortion is a slippery slope, but the death penalty isn’t. Does anyone here really believe that we’ve never executed an innocent person? Assuming you believe we have and will continue to kill innocent people, then the mentality is: “we can live with killing a few innocent people if that’s the price we have to pay to get revenge”. Sounds like a slippery slope indeed.[/quote]

To be honest with you Moriarty, I dont’ even read your posts. So I haven’t been ducking you. You’ve basically set up a bunch of half truth scenarios, and I don’t really want to play that game.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:

The girl’s body is alive. Her brain is mush. Grab a syringe full of morphine and stop this friggin’ lunacy, folks. We are nicer to our cats, for cryin’ out loud.

[/quote]

Yes. And if you willingly starved/dehydrated your cat, you’d be arrested, fined and possibly face few days in jail. Especially under Florida law which is quite strict about it.
Also under Florida law is something about how a disabled person shouldn’t be denied food or water. So much for the law, huh?

A spokesman for the family of Terri Schindler Schiavo said Wednesday the Florida judge presiding over her case “ignores the state?s laws and orders the premeditated killing of a disabled Florida woman by her husband.”

Pamela Hennessy, media director for the Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation, in a press release Wednesday called on disability and eldercare advocates to press for Circuit Judge George Greer?s “immediate impeachment.”

"If there is a single person following this who doesn?t believe Judge Greer has legislated from the bench, trampled Florida?s laws and deprived Terri Schiavo of her retained rights, they are simply not paying attention," Hennessy said in a statement. 

According to the foundation?s press release, on Tuesday and Wednesday Greer issued three orders that the foundation said all but assures Schiavo?s death. First, Greer ordered that the family may not introduce oral nutrition and hydration following the removal of Terri?s gastric feeding tube.

The foundation pointed out that Florida Statute 744.3215 (Rights of Persons Determined Incapacitated) requires that incapacitated people cannot be deprived of food and water.

“Ordering that Terri Schiavo may not receive nutrition or hydration naturally is against the law, in the opinion of the Foundation,” it said in a statement.

Second, according to the foundation, Greer ruled that no further neurological tests may be conducted on Terri, using functional MRI to determine if she is in a “persistent vegetative state,” as Greer found in 2002, or if Terri is “minimally conscious.”

The foundation pointed out that Florida Statute 765.404, which defines persistent vegetative state, requires that the condition be determined and diagnosed as permanent prior to the withdrawal of life-prolonging means. Also, Florida Statute 765.309 prevents mercy killing and assisted suicide.

The foundation said that unless the “true neurological condition of Terri Schiavo” was determined prior to the removal of the feeding tube, Greer?s order amounts to “a directive for her guardian to commit either a mercy killing or assisted suicide.”

And third, “Greer denied an order from a judgment based on his error in dismissing pertinent testimony in 2000 that would assist the court in determining Terri Schiavo?s true end of life wishes,” the foundation added.

It pointed to Florida Statute 765.404, which says that clear and convincing evidence of the ward?s intent for medical treatment must be established.

“The only evidence in support of removing Terri?s feeding tube was the self-serving hearsay testimony of her guardian (which is not admissible under FS 90.602) and hearsay from two members of his immediate family,” the foundation said.

“Greer systematically ruled that testimony from Terri?s friends and family was unreliable or not credible. His failure to consider all evidence of Terri Schiavo?s attitude towards life-prolonging measures, in the Foundation?s opinion, is a clear violation of Florida Statutes,” it concluded.

I’ve abstained from posting here, as I essentially think this case should not be discussed in the public domain, as it is highly personal. So I will not comment on the case at hand.

But I have read a lot of comments about the “whore” and “bastards” the husband is now living with. Shame on you, who says that - especially in the case of the children. It shows utter disregard for people whom you don’t know and have been born into a situation over which they have no control. Where is your sense for justice in this case? I’m disgusted.

Makkun

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
lothario1132 wrote:

The girl’s body is alive. Her brain is mush. Grab a syringe full of morphine and stop this friggin’ lunacy, folks. We are nicer to our cats, for cryin’ out loud.

Yes. And if you willingly starved/dehydrated your cat, you’d be arrested, fined and possibly face few days in jail. Especially under Florida law which is quite strict about it.
Also under Florida law is something about how a disabled person shouldn’t be denied food or water. So much for the law, huh?[/quote]

So you’re agreeing with me, right? I say take the feeding tube out, give the concerned folks time to say their goodbyes, and then put the girl’s body down. Morphine OD = good.

Why are we being so monstrous about this? Starving people to death? What the hell? If you’re gonna kill somebody, then friggin’ do it!

Give me the syringe, I’ll do it if y’all don’t have the stomach for it. Bunch of pussies. I will say that I am ashamed of my home state right now. We should be better than this crap.

[quote]100meters wrote:
more kookiness from one of personal favorites:

FALWELL: She has never been on life support. A month ago, I was on a ventilator to breathe, and I had a feeding tube down my nose, just like she. And thank the Lord, I’m out of it, and I preached two times this morning in my Easter services.

But I’ve already given my living will. Don’t you dare pull the plug on me. I want to wake up in 14 years and say, “What day is it? What time is it?”

But I really think that the courts have been wrong –

What a NUT!
[/quote]

Nothing in your quote qualifies Falwell as a nut. Then again, you are a liberal so hating Falwell is part of what you are supposed to do.