I just realized that when I used to squat all of the time and do ATG squats I was definitely doing them tail under. Now that I watch myself in the mirror I realize that I am doing this as soon as I hit parallel. Should I put plates under my heals?
i wouldnt put plates under my heels. you want your feet to be flat as possible i squat in my socks or in some chucks…
how bout not go ATG???
but what do i know im only 150 pounds…
[quote]markdp wrote:
I just realized that when I used to squat all of the time and do ATG squats I was definitely doing them tail under. Now that I watch myself in the mirror I realize that I am doing this as soon as I hit parallel. Should I put plates under my heals?[/quote]
What are tail under squats? The first i heard of that was in the amazing squat thread… and he had great form.
I think i lean forward too much during squats.
Gutted…
Joe
[quote]Joe Joseph wrote:
markdp wrote:
I just realized that when I used to squat all of the time and do ATG squats I was definitely doing them tail under. Now that I watch myself in the mirror I realize that I am doing this as soon as I hit parallel. Should I put plates under my heals?
What are tail under squats? The first i heard of that was in the amazing squat thread… and he had great form.
I think i lean forward too much during squats.
Gutted…
Joe[/quote]
Tail-under is when your lower back rounds at the bottom of a squat, usually as soon as a particular depth is hit. It then usually straightens out on the way up. From what i’ve seen in person it’s pretty common but considered bad form.
Listen, this could be cause - weakness in the hamstring area usually manifests in such form since hamstrings aren’t in pair with the glutes and quads so to compensate lifter uses lower back muscles by slight forward lean. Lower back can be used to compensate hamstring inflexibility/weakness in many major lifts (for example stiffed back after sets of deads and more).
Hope that helps.
I thought it was an ankle mobility issue?
I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately. I had a client deep squat (light weight) and watched exactly how deep he could go until his pelvis tilted posteriorly (tail-under).
I then had him front squat to the same depth… No tail-under!
I had him back squat again and hold the low position. I then asked him to arch the low back as hard as he could and viola! He could get it and keep it as long as he focused on it.
I don’t see that problem as much as the forward lean issue and that’s a little easier to fix.
So perhaps at least some of it is lack of focus on THAT issue. Sometimes getting out of the hole is first on your mind!
Could also be related to hip mobility and what testosteroniak mentioned.
[quote]anthropocentric wrote:
Could also be related to hip mobility and what testosteroniak mentioned. [/quote]
Yeah, there definately many cases of mobility issues as the cause. I’d just hate to spend lots of time on mobility when it may be something a bit more simple, that’s all.
At least it’s something to think about.
[quote]derek wrote:
I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately. I had a client deep squat (light weight) and watched exactly how deep he could go until his pelvis tilted posteriorly (tail-under).
I then had him front squat to the same depth… No tail-under!
I had him back squat again and hold the low position. I then asked him to arch the low back as hard as he could and viola! He could get it and keep it as long as he focused on it.
I don’t see that problem as much as the forward lean issue and that’s a little easier to fix.
So perhaps at least some of it is lack of focus on THAT issue. Sometimes getting out of the hole is first on your mind![/quote]
Derek, i believe i have a forward lean, and i did a smith squat as part of my rotation and tried it with a light weight and no hands… and i sat RIGHT down, ATG totally (I am currently re-teaching myself to squat full ROM etc) with no forward lean or tail or anything.
But put me on the free barbell squat, forward lean… how do i correct this issue for myself… shall i begin front squatting and see if i can do it that way?
I am experienced, so do your worst! Thanks for your help.
Joe
I was presently surprised at how much the “third world squat” improved my squat.
May not deal with the problems Bushy was helping somebody with, but I never felt so comfortable squatting.
Edit:
I mentioned it, might as well link.
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1856131&pageNo=0
Stretch the primiformis, psoas (hip flexors) and glutes. There’s plenty of stretches if you Google those terms along with the word “stretch” after it. In fact, Google Images is pretty good.
I had mentioned earlier about having a woman do sets of walking lunges with long strides and a hold in the lowest position (to keep her active while I addresed her squatting issues in my head) and then went back to the squat rack to experiment and found that the lunge walks/stretches fixed 90% of the issues.
I use that all the time now with consistent results, just don’t burn out of the lunges, you can just do 3 sets of 3 each leg but hold the stretch, turn torso away from the rear leg and hold for 30 seconds.
Joe De Franco has a good picture of that on his site.
EDIT; Calf stretches seem to help the forward lean as well but you just have to keep working at figureing out where the problems lie for YOUR body as it is SO individual.
Tail under squatting is caused by atleast one of two things:
Gluteus magnus inflexibility
Adductor magnus inflexibility
It is NOT caused by hamstring inflexibility or weakness. The hamstring is not significantly lengthened during a squat because the knees are bent, so an inflexibly hamstring cannot be the cause of a problem. It is not caused by a weakness either, because people with this form problem exhibit the form problem during bodyweight squats as well.
And it is not caused by tight hip flexors either. This is just dumb.
[quote]derek wrote:
Stretch the primiformis, psoas (hip flexors) and glutes. There’s plenty of stretches if you Google those terms along with the word “stretch” after it. In fact, Google Images is pretty good.
I had mentioned earlier about having a woman do sets of walking lunges with long strides and a hold in the lowest position (to keep her active while I addresed her squatting issues in my head) and then went back to the squat rack to experiment and found that the lunge walks/stretches fixed 90% of the issues.
I use that all the time now with consistent results, just don’t burn out of the lunges, you can just do 3 sets of 3 each leg but hold the stretch, turn torso away from the rear leg and hold for 30 seconds.
Joe De Franco has a good picture of that on his site.
EDIT; Calf stretches seem to help the forward lean as well but you just have to keep working at figureing out where the problems lie for YOUR body as it is SO individual.[/quote]
Thanks thats a great start, as you said it is a personal thing and for me - apart from my soleus, which i am SURE causes problems (and i am ALWAYS stretching) - i haven’t been able to pinpoint anything.
I know some good stretches for those muscles, so i will get on to that. Flexibility is a terrible area for me, as i have become more and more muscular, i am almost becoming “muscle-bound” at only 190lbs!!! It is something i am hoping to treat a little with the intensive Extreme Streching as part of the DC routine i am doing. I think i may add a couple of full body flexibility days with some posing work - i hope this wouldn’t interact badly with my DC?? Comments welcome!
MOTHERFUCKER!!! I just tried the Third world squat. ITS MY SOLEUS’ (Solei??)!! Well, good. I will add some psoas, piri and glute stretches to my leg day as well, and i will now be stretching my soleus bi-daily for a minute or two.
Is the best way to really reduce the restriction my soleus have on my squat ROM, to just hammer the soleus stretch (against a wall) daily or twice daily for a minute or two? Or can you suggest another method? Would the walking lunges help still?
Ta!
Joe
Also check to see if it is because your hip bone (ASIS)is coming into contact with your quad at parallel pushing your tail bone under you. This is what happens with me.
If this is the case try stretching the hip flexors. But some people are just not built for ATG squats as well.
could be related to how upright you remain
[quote]Gael wrote:
Tail under squatting is caused by atleast one of two things:
Gluteus magnus inflexibility
Adductor magnus inflexibility
It is NOT caused by hamstring inflexibility or weakness. The hamstring is not significantly lengthened during a squat because the knees are bent, so an inflexibly hamstring cannot be the cause of a problem. It is not caused by a weakness either, because people with this form problem exhibit the form problem during bodyweight squats as well.
And it is not caused by tight hip flexors either. This is just dumb.[/quote]
Don’t forget what I pointed out earlier… That lack of focus on maintaining arch may also be a cause but can be corrected very easily.
Looking at the anatomy of the hip flexors, it looks like a tighness or shortness would cause a tigher arch rather than the latter if anything.
[quote]schultzie wrote:
could be related to how upright you remain[/quote]
Yeah but based on limb lengths, bar placement, torso length and physics some people need to lean more to keep their center of gravity to make sure they dont fall on their ass.
Remaining more upright will help fix the problem not make it worse.
[quote]Gael wrote:
It is NOT caused by hamstring inflexibility or weakness. The hamstring is not significantly lengthened during a squat because the knees are bent, so an inflexibly hamstring cannot be the cause of a problem.
[/quote]
Uh, what now? If the hamstrings don’t stretch, how the hell are they (along with the glutes) the prime movers out of hole? Where do you think the “bounce” comes from?
The point of arching the lower back is to anchor the hamstrings. When you try to hit proper depth with inflexible hams, the hamstrings end up pulling the lower back out of that arch. The best way to fix this is to widen the stance.
This will result in the maintenance of a proper arch AND it will stretch everything that needs to be stretched. Eventually you’ll be able to go back to your usual stance and the problem will be solved there too.