Tail Under Squats

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

[quote]Joe Joseph wrote:
derek wrote:
I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately. I had a client deep squat (light weight) and watched exactly how deep he could go until his pelvis tilted posteriorly (tail-under).

I then had him front squat to the same depth… No tail-under!

I had him back squat again and hold the low position. I then asked him to arch the low back as hard as he could and viola! He could get it and keep it as long as he focused on it.

I don’t see that problem as much as the forward lean issue and that’s a little easier to fix.

So perhaps at least some of it is lack of focus on THAT issue. Sometimes getting out of the hole is first on your mind!

Derek, i believe i have a forward lean, and i did a smith squat as part of my rotation and tried it with a light weight and no hands… and i sat RIGHT down, ATG totally (I am currently re-teaching myself to squat full ROM etc) with no forward lean or tail or anything.

But put me on the free barbell squat, forward lean… how do i correct this issue for myself… shall i begin front squatting and see if i can do it that way?
I am experienced, so do your worst! Thanks for your help.

Joe[/quote]

Hey joe,

The smith may help with this if its a flexibility issue as the smith allows you to push down into a stretch with more control because you have the bar for balance. I have a smith (dont know what i was thinking at the time i bought it) at home and when i first started using it , i found it really awkard.

I think much of the awkwardness was because i was use to doing the tail under squat; which you can still do on the smith unless you concentrate on keeping your back straight (i also think this is the reason many people using the smith find it awkard; because the smith really is awkard if you are use to going tail under).

Just something to think about because you can use the smith to stretch your muscles and have your muscles learn from muscle memory and bring this to the regular free squat - just something to think about.

I also have to agree with some of the people saying that some of the bad form can be caused by lack of focus and not necessarily lack of flexibility. I dont think this may be the case for you joe because of your experience; but thought id mention it.

Also, if one is use to working out this way, it can cause a strength increase in the tail under position; meaning you have to lower the weight if your trying to change your form to not going tail under; and many people dont like lowering the weight; but if they dont; they may not be strong enough when trying not going tail under.

22

[quote]wfifer wrote:
Gael wrote:

It is NOT caused by hamstring inflexibility or weakness. The hamstring is not significantly lengthened during a squat because the knees are bent, so an inflexibly hamstring cannot be the cause of a problem.

Uh, what now? If the hamstrings don’t stretch, how the hell are they (along with the glutes) the prime movers out of hole? Where do you think the “bounce” comes from?

The point of arching the lower back is to anchor the hamstrings. When you try to hit proper depth with inflexible hams, the hamstrings end up pulling the lower back out of that arch. The best way to fix this is to widen the stance. This will result in the maintenance of a proper arch AND it will stretch everything that needs to be stretched. Eventually you’ll be able to go back to your usual stance and the problem will be solved there too. [/quote]

The hamstrings shorten at the knees and lengthen at the hip. Overall, there is a slight stretch, and this can be increased by adopting more of a powerlifting stance – with less knee flexion and more hip flexion – but this stretch doesn’t even approach flexibility limits.

It is the generally the glutes or the adductors that pull the lower back out of the arch, not the hamstrings. Now, if we were talking about a good morning or a straight leg deadlift, hamstring flexibility would likely be a limiting factor, but not in a squat.

And derek, you are quite right about focus.

23

[quote]ds77 wrote:
Joe Joseph wrote:
derek wrote:
I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately. I had a client deep squat (light weight) and watched exactly how deep he could go until his pelvis tilted posteriorly (tail-under).

I then had him front squat to the same depth… No tail-under!

I had him back squat again and hold the low position. I then asked him to arch the low back as hard as he could and viola! He could get it and keep it as long as he focused on it.

I don’t see that problem as much as the forward lean issue and that’s a little easier to fix.

So perhaps at least some of it is lack of focus on THAT issue. Sometimes getting out of the hole is first on your mind!

Derek, i believe i have a forward lean, and i did a smith squat as part of my rotation and tried it with a light weight and no hands… and i sat RIGHT down, ATG totally (I am currently re-teaching myself to squat full ROM etc) with no forward lean or tail or anything.

But put me on the free barbell squat, forward lean… how do i correct this issue for myself… shall i begin front squatting and see if i can do it that way?
I am experienced, so do your worst! Thanks for your help.

Joe

Hey joe,

The smith may help with this if its a flexibility issue as the smith allows you to push down into a stretch with more control because you have the bar for balance. I have a smith (dont know what i was thinking at the time i bought it) at home and when i first started using it , i found it really awkard. I think much of the awkwardness was because i was use to doing the tail under squat; which you can still do on the smith unless you concentrate on keeping your back straight (i also think this is the reason many people using the smith find it awkard; because the smith really is awkard if you are use to going tail under).

Just something to think about because you can use the smith to stretch your muscles and have your muscles learn from muscle memory and bring this to the regular free squat - just something to think about.

I also have to agree with some of the people saying that some of the bad form can be caused by lack of focus and not necessarily lack of flexibility. I dont think this may be the case for you joe because of your experience; but thought id mention it. Also, if one is use to working out this way, it can cause a strength increase in the tail under position; meaning you have to lower the weight if your trying to change your form to not going tail under; and many people dont like lowering the weight; but if they dont; they may not be strong enough when trying not going tail under.

[/quote]

Thanks ds, it was actually because i included smith squats in my program for the first time in ages this week, and i realised could squat without leaning RIGHT forward! I then did it without holding on to the bar, and it was fine again - i guess i was leaning back on the bar a little.

I will be doing these regularly, so i shall do some flexibility/ROM work on the smith as a warm up before my work sets, as well as some other stuff.

Thanks for the advice!

Joe

24

Joe,

I learned the sameway; from the smith; but for me it was because it really just felt awkward. I got a mirror and realized my back was really bending forward with my butt essentially going backward; putting a lot of stress on my back; once i focused on keeping my back straight; it felt great and i realized i had really been doing the regular squat wrong…

and i had brought that same bad form to the smith…which just magnified the problem to where i could feel something was wrong.

At any rate; sounds like you got a handle on whats going on and how to correct it.

25

I have had the same issues that Bushy and Gael describe – it was the glutes, not the hamstrings.

I stretched the heck out of my hamstrings and hip flexors for years hoping to fix some form issues with my squat but got nowhere.

More recently I focused instead on the glutes and discovered that the left one in particular was tight, weak, inhibited, and full of trigger points.

I also decided that to fix issues with squatting form, to work on mobility in the squat motion itself. From the CNS standpoint, movements are very specific. Glutes can be strong in some isolated movement yet fail to fire in a more complex movement like the squat.

So instead of doing some isolated stretches, I’ll do a BW squat to the point where something doesn’t want to move, then do iso holds in that position and really focus on firing the glutes.

That same idea led to the Third World Squat even though I didn’t even see that article. I just noticed that people who COULD do good ROM squats looked similar to my little 2-year-old nieces and nephews who spend hours in that same squat position. So I started doing those every day.

I now believe that the way to address stubborn issues in complex movements is to look for what’s NOT firing, instead of trying to loosen up what feels tight. One muscle or joint is tight BECAUSE some other one is doing nothing. Get the lazy one working, and the tightness disappears automatically.

Anyway, this new approach is working far better than the old stretching approach.

27

i use to be involved in the martial arts. One of the big things with achieving a stretch is that of “learning” or teaching your muscles not to oppose one another.

There are two approaches you can take with teaching yourself to get lower in the squat; one is by passive stretching; in this case you just try and stretch the muscle in a relaxed state and is something i practiced for years in the martial arts (thought during this time i was not trying to “lower my squat”.

There is another and that is actually trying to go to the low squat position and stretch in to it with all the contraction of the muscles in a stretched positon. This is really known as isometric stretching; but it also has the learning or teaching of passive stretching.

To the point; you want to do isometric stretching by trying to mimic what you are trying to do with the squat… if you want to waste time doing other things… thats fine; but the fastest way to get there is just try and do the atg squat as its suppose to be done and mimics its motion with wieght as closely as possible… and if you cant do it with a free squat; it can be done with a smith machine.

29

Tail tucking, almost always, is due to lack of flexibility. Most women tail tuck due to tight hamstrings, usually women have very good ROM in their Glutes.

For men, hamstrings and glutes both can be, and usually are the issue. T-Nation authors have said it time and time again. If your glutes/hamstrings are stiffer than your spine, the spine will move first every time, and that is exactly what happens with a tail tuck.

You will be shocked at what consistent static stretching will do if you spend a good half hour on your problem areas a day. Add in some dynamic flexibility and rolling and the tissue should cooperate faster.

30

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
ds77 wrote:
but the fastest way to get there is just try and do the atg squat as its suppose to be done and mimics its motion with wieght as closely as possible… and if you cant do it with a free squat; it can be done with a smith machine.

But isn’t that the whole point?

He CAN’T get into a technically correct full squat position.

Telling him to “just try and do the atg squat position” is well… retarded.

Having said that, your comment about stretching is true, however it was assumed by me, that if he reads this kind of website, he would know that PNF stretching (a more evolved version of an isometric stretch) is what he needs to do.

Sorry if I sound antagonistic but your comment above seemed to get me fired up.

Bushy[/quote]

its ok bushy, thats the reason the forum is here… it would be pretty boring if no one disagreed.

I guess because i corrected my tail under by actually doing it through the form of it (and with the use of the smith), i sort of post what really worked for me… but you are right; there could be a better way or maybe the way i did it isnt the best way or what would work for everyone.

anyways… your points are well taken.

33

Well, as a recovering tail-under squatter, this is what I know about me:

  • my psoas would probably considered tight. Following my back injury, the ART guy pronounced the left one as very tight.

  • however, stretching it did not help and would inevitably irritate my SI joint

  • SUCCESSFUL glute activation has helped. I say ‘successful’ because just performing movements would not get these stubborn muscles to fire. It wasn’t until I did trigger point work and the Gray Cook hip lift that I started getting anywhere with the weak one.

  • I have also had to devote a ton of attention to moving the hips without moving the lumbar spine. It has been very very hard to change this. Any tips, Bushy?

Bushy, what happens to the psoas when the hips are maximally flexed? like in a knees-to-chest hip stretch or a deep squat? Intuitively it seems the psoas would be at its shortest in those positions, so why would tightness cause a problem there?

34

I’m not exactly sure how a tight illiopsoas can by itself cause the tail under position during a squat. I would reason that if the illiopsoas was actually tight due to a myostatic contracture, than you would get an anterior tilt, ie…an excessive arched position instead of a posterior tilt…the tail under position.
I can see however if there was a loss of glute activation DUE to reciprocal inhibition as you stated Bushy, that it may cause the poor motor control of the pelvis. But in that case it would have to be neurogenic instead of structural, as you also stated.

36

Given that I’m a lifter with horrible levers for squatting big weights (half again stronger at the deadlift). . .

I’ve always had fantastic flexibility that I’ve only had to do dynamic mobility drills to maintain, but I still have trouble with ‘tail under’ squatting.

Well, I’ve found that I only get lumbar flexion when I squat very deep (nearly hams to calves). I’ve started filming myself and found that I have no problem if I simply restrict the depth I hit on squats. Maybe femur slightly above parallel, but still legal squat depth, does the trick for me.

I think it was EC that mentioned how ATG squatting is not appropriate for some lifters.

37

How is it that the most perfect back squat form I see is always with olympic weightlifters?

I see bodybuilders and powerlifters and recreational lifters and everybody squatting, yet they all either have an issue with form or stop at or above parallel. Yet I see every damn olympic weightlifter that I train around - even the ones just getting started in the sport - squatting with full depth and a straight back, staying mostly upright… and using a good amount of weight as well…

What is it that olympic weightlifters do specifically that makes them so good at back squatting?

Anyone have some insight for me?

38

Olympic lifters and powerlifters are athletes. That means the lifts themselves are what’s important. But I think the mentality is different. Powerlifters want to move a lot of weight.

Squat depth is really just something they have to deal with because it’s a rule. For Oly lifters, technique is everything. Squatting deep actually allows them to lift more. And serious lifters almost always have coaches.

39

I get why they do it, what I want to know is HOW. haha

40

I think once you’ve got the “why” down the “how” falls into place. Oly lifters learn form first. How often does the same apply to any other group? Once you’ve screwed up a motor pattern it’s hard to fix it.