[quote]Orbitalboner wrote:
K, this thread go massively hijacked. Back to the original subject maybe?[/quote]
Sorry. I’m interested in hearing about negative side-effects of exogenous testosterone supplements. I don’t need them now, but I think my Dad could probably use something. I’m skeptical that test therapy has no negative side-effects, although i admit that I haven’t researched this.
DB
[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
Orbitalboner wrote:
K, this thread go massively hijacked. Back to the original subject maybe?
Sorry. I’m interested in hearing about negative side-effects of exogenous testosterone supplements. I don’t need them now, but I think my Dad could probably use something. I’m skeptical that test therapy has no negative side-effects, although i admit that I haven’t researched this.
DB
[/quote]
The only negative side affects that I’ve discovered so far are:
An increase in sex drive.
More muscle.
Less fat.
Better attitude.
No Prostate enlargement.
Low PSA.
Even though my test levels are lower on average, I still prefer injection over Androgel. Less of a pain to deal with and better results.
~daw
chirag,
I have been following your posts in other threads now for a while. I normally leave posts like yours alone. However, I’m sick and tired of seeing them.
I’m going to give you the same advice I’ve given other whiners in person. SHUT UP AND TRAIN!
You have paralysis through over analysis. You’ll never get anywhere if you don’t just do something. Get your sorry ass in the gym and train. Stop worrying about macronutrients and diets. Eat anything that doesn’t eat you first. You are a skinny toothpick who needs to get his head out of his ass and do something rather than find excuses not to. “Oh, I have an eating disorder”, “I have psychological problems due to being an overweight child”, P-L-E-A-S-E! Spare us the details. Grow up!
I have a sister like you, always looking for excuses to explain away her shortcomings. Oh fucking woes me all the damn time. “Daddy did this when we were kids”, “mommy did that”. FUCK all that cry-baby bullshit! You’re making everyone sick. Life is what you make it. You can either let it happen or make it happen. Don’t let things control you. Grow some nuts and control yourself.
If you were in front of me doing all this pissing and moaning I’d bitch-slap your pathetic ass into the middle of next week.
Leave all that psycho-babble bullshit alone. It seems you’ve spent too much time with shrinks. “My shrink thinks because of my OCD nature I should stay away from weight training and play soccer”. Give me a fucking break! Most shrinks are head cases that got into psychology or psychiatry to figure out their own fucked up lives and found out it was a great way to make a buck. Most of it is total crap. I am an I.T. professional by trade. I was hired a few years ago to write a piece of software for a group of psychiatrists. That’s when I found out what a load of bullshit it was. I think they have their place in society but for the most part it’s a business like anything else. Ask two psychiatrist or psychologists the same question and get two completely different answers in response. Sometimes in life you need to figure shit out for yourself.
I normally try to encourage people and in a way that’s what I’m trying to do here for you. But coddling you is a waste of time. Now you think your T levels are out of whack. Oh brother! What next? “The moon is full so I can’t train”. Boo-hoo. People on this site have gone out of their way to try to help you and you still need more. You are needy, clingy and sickening.
Dude, you are on the wrong site if you’re looking for pitty. Now get offline, go to the gym and train so hard you puke. Eat all damn day long. Drink Grow! Protein shakes through out the day (at least 5 a day, everyday). Train heavy with low reps and sets at least 4 days a week. Stay away from cardio until you’ve gained at least 50 lbs of lean mass. Read the numerous posts already recommended to you on T-Nation. SHUT UP AND LISTEN! Are you getting any of this? Maybe the T-MODs can block your future posts until you’ve submitted pics of yourself demonstrating you have made the effort to follow the advice and suggestions already given to you on the site.
Like the song says, “a little less talk and a lot more action”.
Ass Buster
Well, I feel like the palace eunuch – my total T was 146. 146!!! So, I’m going on Androgel and then going to a specialist in Endocrinology. My doc was a little uncomfortable with HRT, as it’s not his specialty. If I don’t like the gel (and thanks for the info on this ,guys!), I’ll go the injection route. The thought of injections every week for the next 40 years (wishful thinking) doesn’t appeal to me.
I really would like to urge everyone reading this to get tested. Even if you think you’re fine, get it done.
I’ll update this as I go along, too! And thanks again guys!
Assbuster hit the nail on the head. You have to take control of things yourself despite all the problems and other issues you face in life everyday!
Shut up and eat and train!!!
I began Androgel today, plus did some extensive research. A net search found 2 studies that showed (1) mood improvement (2) muscle mass increase and fat loss (3) low side effects.
One study at: www.centerwatch.com reported on a total of
227 men tested, mostly good results, even with the lowest dose. Another study found injections and patches tended to cause spikes, which scientists thought were more prone to cause problems (this was at the AARP site).
I will update this with my results as they occur.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I will update this with my results as they occur.[/quote]
Please do. I’m sure many people are interested.
[quote]assbuster wrote:
chirag,
I have been following your posts in other threads now for a while. I normally leave posts like yours alone. However, I’m sick and tired of seeing them.
I’m going to give you the same advice I’ve given other whiners in person. SHUT UP AND TRAIN!
You have paralysis through over analysis. You’ll never get anywhere if you don’t just do something. Get your sorry ass in the gym and train. Stop worrying about macronutrients and diets. Eat anything that doesn’t eat you first. You are a skinny toothpick who needs to get his head out of his ass and do something rather than find excuses not to. “Oh, I have an eating disorder”, “I have psychological problems due to being an overweight child”, P-L-E-A-S-E! Spare us the details. Grow up!
I have a sister like you, always looking for excuses to explain away her shortcomings. Oh fucking woes me all the damn time. “Daddy did this when we were kids”, “mommy did that”. FUCK all that cry-baby bullshit! You’re making everyone sick. Life is what you make it. You can either let it happen or make it happen. Don’t let things control you. Grow some nuts and control yourself.
If you were in front of me doing all this pissing and moaning I’d bitch-slap your pathetic ass into the middle of next week.
Leave all that psycho-babble bullshit alone. It seems you’ve spent too much time with shrinks. “My shrink thinks because of my OCD nature I should stay away from weight training and play soccer”. Give me a fucking break! Most shrinks are head cases that got into psychology or psychiatry to figure out their own fucked up lives and found out it was a great way to make a buck. Most of it is total crap. I am an I.T. professional by trade. I was hired a few years ago to write a piece of software for a group of psychiatrists. That’s when I found out what a load of bullshit it was. I think they have their place in society but for the most part it’s a business like anything else. Ask two psychiatrist or psychologists the same question and get two completely different answers in response. Sometimes in life you need to figure shit out for yourself.
I normally try to encourage people and in a way that’s what I’m trying to do here for you. But coddling you is a waste of time. Now you think your T levels are out of whack. Oh brother! What next? “The moon is full so I can’t train”. Boo-hoo. People on this site have gone out of their way to try to help you and you still need more. You are needy, clingy and sickening.
Dude, you are on the wrong site if you’re looking for pitty. Now get offline, go to the gym and train so hard you puke. Eat all damn day long. Drink Grow! Protein shakes through out the day (at least 5 a day, everyday). Train heavy with low reps and sets at least 4 days a week. Stay away from cardio until you’ve gained at least 50 lbs of lean mass. Read the numerous posts already recommended to you on T-Nation. SHUT UP AND LISTEN! Are you getting any of this? Maybe the T-MODs can block your future posts until you’ve submitted pics of yourself demonstrating you have made the effort to follow the advice and suggestions already given to you on the site.
Like the song says, “a little less talk and a lot more action”.
Ass Buster[/quote]
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!
[quote]throttle132 wrote:
assbuster wrote:
chirag,
I have been following your posts in other threads now for a while. I normally leave posts like yours alone. However, I’m sick and tired of seeing them.
I’m going to give you the same advice I’ve given other whiners in person. SHUT UP AND TRAIN!
You have paralysis through over analysis. You’ll never get anywhere if you don’t just do something. Get your sorry ass in the gym and train. Stop worrying about macronutrients and diets. Eat anything that doesn’t eat you first. You are a skinny toothpick who needs to get his head out of his ass and do something rather than find excuses not to. “Oh, I have an eating disorder”, “I have psychological problems due to being an overweight child”, P-L-E-A-S-E! Spare us the details. Grow up!
I have a sister like you, always looking for excuses to explain away her shortcomings. Oh fucking woes me all the damn time. “Daddy did this when we were kids”, “mommy did that”. FUCK all that cry-baby bullshit! You’re making everyone sick. Life is what you make it. You can either let it happen or make it happen. Don’t let things control you. Grow some nuts and control yourself.
If you were in front of me doing all this pissing and moaning I’d bitch-slap your pathetic ass into the middle of next week.
Leave all that psycho-babble bullshit alone. It seems you’ve spent too much time with shrinks. “My shrink thinks because of my OCD nature I should stay away from weight training and play soccer”. Give me a fucking break! Most shrinks are head cases that got into psychology or psychiatry to figure out their own fucked up lives and found out it was a great way to make a buck. Most of it is total crap. I am an I.T. professional by trade. I was hired a few years ago to write a piece of software for a group of psychiatrists. That’s when I found out what a load of bullshit it was. I think they have their place in society but for the most part it’s a business like anything else. Ask two psychiatrist or psychologists the same question and get two completely different answers in response. Sometimes in life you need to figure shit out for yourself.
I normally try to encourage people and in a way that’s what I’m trying to do here for you. But coddling you is a waste of time. Now you think your T levels are out of whack. Oh brother! What next? “The moon is full so I can’t train”. Boo-hoo. People on this site have gone out of their way to try to help you and you still need more. You are needy, clingy and sickening.
Dude, you are on the wrong site if you’re looking for pitty. Now get offline, go to the gym and train so hard you puke. Eat all damn day long. Drink Grow! Protein shakes through out the day (at least 5 a day, everyday). Train heavy with low reps and sets at least 4 days a week. Stay away from cardio until you’ve gained at least 50 lbs of lean mass. Read the numerous posts already recommended to you on T-Nation. SHUT UP AND LISTEN! Are you getting any of this? Maybe the T-MODs can block your future posts until you’ve submitted pics of yourself demonstrating you have made the effort to follow the advice and suggestions already given to you on the site.
Like the song says, “a little less talk and a lot more action”.
Ass Buster
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS![/quote]
Sorry if I pissed you off with my multiple posts. I thought one could come here to seek advice on training and nutrition, especially when one’s environment (ie. family & friends) don’t allow it.
You could simply have ignored those posts. But hey, I’m HAPPY you got annoyed and went ahead to post such a long but enlightening piece-of-gold advice.
Why didn’t you post it up before? You would have saved me the hassle and time of posting more whining comments and statements.
Anyways, your post achieved what it meant to do. It struck me like a bolt of lightning. I’ll keep my negative comments and excuses to myself, and if I have to release them somehow, I’ll unleash them on the weights and on the fork.
Thanx.
Chirag,
You are cordially invited to the AD thread. The Anabolic Diet and a good TBT cycled with the Waterbury Method will get what you want. My only demand is NO half efforts and once a question has been answered, you are to apply the information. Your goals are only a decision away. There are 23 pages of info to bone up on before you post, please.
Best,
DH
[quote]chirag wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
assbuster wrote:
chirag,
I have been following your posts in other threads now for a while. I normally leave posts like yours alone. However, I’m sick and tired of seeing them.
I’m going to give you the same advice I’ve given other whiners in person. SHUT UP AND TRAIN!
You have paralysis through over analysis. You’ll never get anywhere if you don’t just do something. Get your sorry ass in the gym and train. Stop worrying about macronutrients and diets. Eat anything that doesn’t eat you first. You are a skinny toothpick who needs to get his head out of his ass and do something rather than find excuses not to. “Oh, I have an eating disorder”, “I have psychological problems due to being an overweight child”, P-L-E-A-S-E! Spare us the details. Grow up!
I have a sister like you, always looking for excuses to explain away her shortcomings. Oh fucking woes me all the damn time. “Daddy did this when we were kids”, “mommy did that”. FUCK all that cry-baby bullshit! You’re making everyone sick. Life is what you make it. You can either let it happen or make it happen. Don’t let things control you. Grow some nuts and control yourself.
If you were in front of me doing all this pissing and moaning I’d bitch-slap your pathetic ass into the middle of next week.
Leave all that psycho-babble bullshit alone. It seems you’ve spent too much time with shrinks. “My shrink thinks because of my OCD nature I should stay away from weight training and play soccer”. Give me a fucking break! Most shrinks are head cases that got into psychology or psychiatry to figure out their own fucked up lives and found out it was a great way to make a buck. Most of it is total crap. I am an I.T. professional by trade. I was hired a few years ago to write a piece of software for a group of psychiatrists. That’s when I found out what a load of bullshit it was. I think they have their place in society but for the most part it’s a business like anything else. Ask two psychiatrist or psychologists the same question and get two completely different answers in response. Sometimes in life you need to figure shit out for yourself.
I normally try to encourage people and in a way that’s what I’m trying to do here for you. But coddling you is a waste of time. Now you think your T levels are out of whack. Oh brother! What next? “The moon is full so I can’t train”. Boo-hoo. People on this site have gone out of their way to try to help you and you still need more. You are needy, clingy and sickening.
Dude, you are on the wrong site if you’re looking for pitty. Now get offline, go to the gym and train so hard you puke. Eat all damn day long. Drink Grow! Protein shakes through out the day (at least 5 a day, everyday). Train heavy with low reps and sets at least 4 days a week. Stay away from cardio until you’ve gained at least 50 lbs of lean mass. Read the numerous posts already recommended to you on T-Nation. SHUT UP AND LISTEN! Are you getting any of this? Maybe the T-MODs can block your future posts until you’ve submitted pics of yourself demonstrating you have made the effort to follow the advice and suggestions already given to you on the site.
Like the song says, “a little less talk and a lot more action”.
Ass Buster
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!
Sorry if I pissed you off with my multiple posts. I thought one could come here to seek advice on training and nutrition, especially when one’s environment (ie. family & friends) don’t allow it.
You could simply have ignored those posts. But hey, I’m HAPPY you got annoyed and went ahead to post such a long but enlightening piece-of-gold advice.
Why didn’t you post it up before? You would have saved me the hassle and time of posting more whining comments and statements.
Anyways, your post achieved what it meant to do. It struck me like a bolt of lightning. I’ll keep my negative comments and excuses to myself, and if I have to release them somehow, I’ll unleash them on the weights and on the fork.
Thanx.
[/quote]
[quote]chirag wrote:
Sorry if I pissed you off with my multiple posts. I thought one could come here to seek advice on training and nutrition, especially when one’s environment (ie. family & friends) don’t allow it.
You could simply have ignored those posts. But hey, I’m HAPPY you got annoyed and went ahead to post such a long but enlightening piece-of-gold advice.
Why didn’t you post it up before? You would have saved me the hassle and time of posting more whining comments and statements.
Anyways, your post achieved what it meant to do. It struck me like a bolt of lightning. I’ll keep my negative comments and excuses to myself, and if I have to release them somehow, I’ll unleash them on the weights and on the fork.
Thanx.[/quote]
Wow, this is a sight to behold. chirag, I don’t know you from Adam, but to see someone respond positively to criticism is almost unprecedented on this or any forum. Good for you for having the balls to take ownership, and hats off to assbuster for writing a tour de force of a post. Seriously, good form.
I went to the doctor today to get my results and he said that my T levels were “in the cellar”. I think he said the number was around 186. I informed him that when I had that blood drawn I was in a high volume/ high intensity week. I stated that athletes will have lower level T levels when going throgh periods of training in that manner. He seemed vaguely familiar with it.
He went on to state that I need to forget about powerlifting and move to bodybuilding and “just get cut” which didn’t make me happy to hear. I was further instructed to cut out the carbs from my diet, lose muscle mass and lose strength because powerlifting was sending me to an early grave. That didn’t go over well either.
He was going to start giving T-shots today but when I told him that sexually everything was great in my life he decided it wasn’t worth it. I also would come up positive on a drug test in competing for powerlifting so I declined this treatment.
Question is, if T levels are that low, sexually all is well, strength gains are being made, bodyfat is low and blood pressure is good, is there need for alarm? This is a whole new thing for me. It doesn’t make sense.
Did he do a TSH (thyroid) check?
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Did he do a TSH (thyroid) check?[/quote]
No, but he said my liver enzymes were up and wants to do an ultra sound on my liver for some reason. Every time I go see this guy it’s something new. I’m starting to think it’s a “fishing expedition”. He’s a P.A. (physician’s assistant) so I don’t want to question his education but I am starting to wonder.
I asked him what will need to happen if the ultrasound confirms that I have a fatty liver and he said, “just get cut, stop the carbs, quit driking milk, forget the squats and deadlifts and start doing what I do and begin doing high rep curls with 30 lbs.” I wasn’t sure if he was joking or not and he confirmed he wasn’t.
He said that even though I am 270 lbs. @14% bodyfat I need to go down to 8% and forget about strength and size. I guess it’s time to see a sports doctor and get a second opinion.
You can certainly do better than this guy! If you’re stuck because of an HMO, try asking them and describe your situation. Otherwise, I’d drop this guy like a hot potato.
My T came in at 146 (240-950 is normal) and I’m on Androgel. Seems to have minimum side effects. Ask your next doc to put you on that and just keep doing what you’re doing. 270 at 14% is outstanding!!
Life is funny – I had a full physical last month, after a bout with kidney stones left me wondering what else might be wrond. I had my T levels checked, but my P care Physician was uncomfortable with HRT, despite my level of 272 at age 49. I do have symptoms that I think may be related to this. I figured I would have to use Alpha Male and hope for the best.
Anyway, the PA from my urologist’s office called to set up a followup to my kidney stone work, and says. “Gee, your test levels are a bit low for a guy your age. Did you know we could help yo uwith that?” I told her what my PC dr said, and mentioned that I knew normal levels were 300 - 800 for my age group. I then asked her what level we would shoot for.
You’re going to love this - she says “What we like to do is just keep bringing the levels up to the point where the patient feels much better. You tell us where you feel best.” Now, while I am sure they aren’t going to pump 2000mg a week into my ass, this does sound promising.
Now I am wondering if once I am used to the test, whether my MAG-10 stash will make for an interesting month or so.
Go in next friday. Can’t wait.
Last year, at the ripe young age of 32, my T test came back in the low 300s. I had a couple of follow-up tests, still in the same range. I tried two different docs, but neither were willing to consider the HRT options since I was still in the “normal” range (220ish - 8something).
Keep us updated on the progress…and oh, if anyone knows of a proactive doctor in the St. Louis, MO area, please send me a PM.
J
OK…
Forgive me for a probable bone-headed reply here, but it seems to me some of you gents are jumping on the HRT bandwagon alot sooner than I would have.
I would have tried Alpha Male at high dosages or Clomid, Nolvadex, arimidex, etc. before going right into using the big T itself (perhaps you fellas did already; I know I’m making a bold assumption that other things have not been tried yet. If so, sorry).
Why? Taking T I believe will permanently keep your endogenous levels low. Taking the other stuff might counter what could be a problem: higher estrogen levels due to more aromatase when you get older.
It was either Cy or Chris who wrote a very interesting article on age related decreases in T, and in the article I believe it blamed the leydig cells giving out more than the hypothalamus or pituatary. In this case the Tongkat Ali in Alpha Male could possibly help there…in theory.
In closing, and just my opinion mind you, I think it would be wisest to try other things before HRT. HRT is a wonderful thing, but only if it’s a last resort.
Very interesting thread to read - especially the Doctors and such forecasting doom and gloom on a ‘T’ result.
I have a lot of respect for doctors, in that they worked bloody hard to get their education. Unfortunately, I do not agree with their general approach: (1) go see them with a symptom; (2) they test you; (3) they prescribe a drug and/or (4) they cut away something.
One ‘T’ reading - high or low - means nothing. Strength-trainers are putting huge stresses on their bodies - how the fuck does anyone know how your body might respond to this all the time? Is it possible that the ‘T’ levels in the blood are so low because every bit you have is being absorbed by blood-engorged muscles that are trying to recover/grow/adapt to yesterday’s unusually stressful workout (unusual because it’s yet another new, high intensity cycle; or because you’re under attack from a virus at the same time; or because your diet is now so much higher/lower in sat. fats / carbs / calories; or because your recovering from a fractured bone or kidney stone cleanse, or or or…)?
Also, is it not possible that a dietary anomally (e.g. food loaded with unusually high levels of bacteria AND/OR artifical drugs - such as a chicken breat from a chicken that happened to have high levels of growth hormones coz it ate the cows grain by accident etc. - can interfere with hormone production in us and cause a one-off spike?
Also, if your cortisol levels are very high (again as a natural response to a stressor), can’t that lock-up T and give an artificially low result? ANyone want to bet their life on any of this?
There must be a million perfectly sound reasons why your ‘T’ level could be low or high one day. Personally, I’d wait a few weeks (maybe until I was on a completely different training cycle!) then get it remeasured. I’d want to see several readings before I was convinced there was a trend.
Then maybe I’d be prepared to do something about it. But the first thing I would do is my own research. I’d listen to the Doctors prescription (take these drugs, do this, don;t do that) and thank him, but then I’d go an make some of my own checks. The more serious the condition, the more work I’d do.
I recommend you keep doing the same. A lengthy college education does not make one an expert on everything. I know coz I had one, too.
Regards & good luck,
WiZlon
[quote]WiZlon wrote:
Very interesting thread to read - especially the Doctors and such forecasting doom and gloom on a ‘T’ result.
Regards & good luck,
WiZlon[/quote]
Great points. You make a lot of sense. However, HRT is not forever. I would imagine that most of those taking HRT have tried Alpha Male, etc. In my case, I have done a couple bottles, and it did help, which only reinforces in my mind that my T level is an issue. Since HRT is offered, under medical supervision, and at replacement levels, why not? It is not as if I am trying to emulate Paul Dillet, here. I am going to give it a few months, and see where it takes me.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.