T-Nation Christians

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
181

[quote]swordthrower wrote:
awesomepossom wrote:
paul bunyan wrote:

Carbon dating and dating stuff based on sedimentary layers is flawed to say the least. Google it, you’ll see. There’s tons of info that supports creation–or rather–there’s no scietific evidence that supports anything other than creation. Every time (And I mean EVERY time the scientists think they’ve discovered something about evolution or the Big Bang theory there’s a big, glaring glitch in it.)

You know that old, artist rendetion of the ape evolving into man? The one that’s probably been in every elementary school textbook since 1960? It was based off of the discovery of ONE TOOTH and that turned out to be from a PIG. I feel lied to.
Creation is not the easy explanation for backward, slack-jawed Christians.

Evolution is the easy answer that doesn’t challenge a prideful belief system.

Damn right! What do all those scientists know that I can’t get from a 2000 year old book? I mean, the only evidence they claim to have about the age of the universe being 13 billion years is the cosmic microwave background, the recessional velocities of distant galaxies, the dynamical configuration of our galaxy in the local group, gravitationally lensed quasars, and high redshift gamma-ray bursts.

Plus, there’s all that scientific evidence for creationism (I can’t remember what it is, but I Googled it, so now I’m a card-carrying expert). And as far as our monkey “ancestors” go, don’t get me started! I mean, all they have is fossilized remains of homo erectus, homo robustus, and australopithecus. And they were either planted by activist scientists, or God himself, just to test our faith.

Preach on brother. Ignorance is bliss, ain’t it?[/quote]

It must be, because you have displayed ignorance of God’s Word in a most sarcastic way.

13 Billion Years Old – give me a break!

182

Wow. All these born again christians on T-Nation. How encouraging!

I got saved (born again) when I was young. This world…so depressing. I don’t want to offend anyone who’s not saved reading this thread, but I would literally swallow a gun if I didn’t have the hope and assurance that something better was coming. Praise the LORD for that.

183

[quote]ZEB wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
ZEB wrote:

It’s a shame Jesus Christ was so outspoken or you might be a believer.

And you don’t know that I’m not a believer. Maybe I just don’t believe what you believe-that there’s only one right way and it’s the right and obligation of believers to coerce nonbelievers to it.

Oh no you are making more comments “in that vein.” Does that make you a liar?

Yes you can be a believer and not believe the proper thing, I understand that.

[/quote]

Zeb, zeb, zeb I ain’t biting and junking up this thread anymore. You can think whatever you want of me and my relgious beliefs.

184

[quote]ZEB wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
ZEB wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
To JP Bear and the rest of you participating in this excellent thread, I apologize and will make no further comments in that vein.

I think I know where you are coming from. If someone wants to be a Christian you don’t have any problem with that.

But if someone actually wants to live their faith and try to help others who are going down the wrong road, according to that faith, then you don’t like that much.

So quiet Christians are good-Outspoken ones are bad.

Got it.

It’s a shame Jesus Christ was so outspoken or you might be a believer.

No, you don’t get it at all. I don’t mind people expressly wearing their religion on their sleeve and displaying it and trying to expose people and get them to adopt what they think is right. But there is a way of doing that still demonstrates respect for other people and their beliefs, religious and otherwise, even though one thinks their own are correct. And Lorisco does not do that. Others here and elsewhere do.

And that is your opinion. You are judging lorisco.

That sort of sounds a bit like what you don’t appreciate others doing. Maybe you better join prof x over there on the hypocrit forum.

And you did say you were not coming back to this thread but here you are…[/quote]

I am giving a personal opinion that Lorisco alienates and, if anything, makes me less inclined to embrace relgion. I suspect for others too. I am not asserting opinions as facts as you have done. I stand by what I said about Lorisco as compared to others. That is my OPINION of how he comes across.

185

[quote]swordthrower wrote:

Preach on brother. Ignorance is bliss, ain’t it?[/quote]

Gee, I don’t know, I’m just a backwards Christian. Sounds like you’d know better than me.

186

[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
This is strange because the bible only mentions creating men. [/quote]

God Created Birds and Fish:
Genesis 1:20-23

God Creates “Beasts of the Earth”:
Genesis 1:24-25

God Creates Man:
Genesis 1:26-27

Man was created last out of everything.

And a “day” to the Lord…may not be a “day” as we define it.

187

[quote]campdirector wrote:
Sorry but I just don’t buy the answer that your questions are answered in the Bible deal. I’ve read the Bible more than once and my questions have never been answered there. There are too many things in the Bible that I do not agree with.

Don’t get me wrong. I am not trying to bash anyone or anything here. I have been looking for answers for a long time now. And if God were looking for relationships, why make us so imperfect? Why not make us perfect?
CD[/quote]

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but when I read the bible, I find that if I try to find justification for my beliefs I usually don’t find my answers.

However, if I ask for help and guidance and actively seek the answer without trying to find proof to my point, then the answer has always been given to me.

188

[quote]carld57 wrote:
awesomepossom wrote:
campdirector wrote:
When Christ was crucified, the Bible says He went down to Hell and took the keys of death and Hell from Satan.

Hold up here! That is absolutely untrue. Why don’t you please give me a Bible verse that says this. The only place I’ve heard this was in creeds when I attended another denomination’s mass a few times(I am Babtist, where the Bible is the sole source of truth).

As Christians, we need to keep the Word straight and accurate.[/quote]

I agree with this. Can someone give me scripural proof of the statement? It sounds like something I used to recite when I was in a different kind of church (before I read the bible and was Reborn).

189

[quote]AlphaDragon wrote:
paul bunyan wrote:
This is strange because the bible only mentions creating men.

God Created Birds and Fish:
Genesis 1:20-23

God Creates “Beasts of the Earth”:
Genesis 1:24-25

God Creates Man:
Genesis 1:26-27

Man was created last out of everything.

And a “day” to the Lord…may not be a “day” as we define it.

[/quote]

I meant only men and not dinos. And how come the word “day” is not taken literally in the bible but everything else is?. How can you just pick and chose what you believe?

190

[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
No christian has been willing to properly answer my question so I figured I would try here.

Dinosaurs. How can their existence be explained without contradicting your belief system? It has been proven and established as a basic fact that dinosaurs lived and died millions of years before men existed. This is strange because the bible only mentions creating men. There was no break period of millions of years. It just doesn’t make sense to me. So someone please help me out and explain this to me. I’m not trying to stir anything here, I just really want to know the christian position on this particular subject.

PS. The book of job does not describe dinosaurs. And if you think that then you need to read it over a use an unbiased frame of mind before you make assumptions.[/quote]

The real problem with this topic is that human society has become so conditioned to having science become the authority on everything, i.e. sort of a “if science can’t prove it I won’t believe it” type of attitude. The trouble is that when this type of thinking is applied to the bible, and especially the creation account in Genesis, it is immediately “proven” by science that the bible is wrong and the evolutionists are correct.

I have two problems that the evolution/creationism debate even exists at all:

  1. Too many people dismiss the bible without really understanding it. For example, did you know that the first 10 or so chapters of Genesis are actually a form of poetic type of literature, and therefore the author Moses probably took some form of “poetic licence” in how the creation events where described. It’s not a scientific document!

  2. People don’t “get” what the bible is really about, i.e. the relationship between God and mankind and how God goes about giving mankind the opportunity to reconcile with Him after we so grandly stuffed things up through sinning. The small details of the creation of the world are not the main concern of the bible, but the things that matter are included, i.e. God did the creating, so the bible’s attitude is more like “Not how but WHO” did the creating.

This may come as a shock to some of you, but as a christian I do not believe that the bible gives us the answer to everything, but it does give us the answers that we NEED. Indeed, there are verses in the bible that mention that some things are to remain known to God only, and we won’t know about them whilst living on earth.

So, will the bible give us the answers about exactly how creation occurred?

No.

Will it give you the answers on how to get back into a relationship with the creator of everything?

Yes.

I know which answer I’d rather find out!

Ben

191

[quote]swordthrower wrote:

Damn right! What do all those scientists know that I can’t get from a 2000 year old book? [/quote]

Actually the book is over 3400 years old if you count the Old Testament. Moses wrote the first books around 1450-1410 BC.

And there has been no other book in history more scrutinized and tested that continues to remain in existance.

With so many non-Christians and highly educated academia-types examining the Book and trying to discredit it, to say that it STILL has not been refuted should say something.

SOrry, I know it’s not the best answer, but I’m only trying my best daily to grow in and learn His Word.

Jason

192

[quote]campdirector wrote:
Sorry but I just don’t buy the answer that your questions are answered in the Bible deal. I’ve read the Bible more than once and my questions have never been answered there. There are too many things in the Bible that I do not agree with.

Don’t get me wrong. I am not trying to bash anyone or anything here. I have been looking for answers for a long time now. And if God were looking for relationships, why make us so imperfect? Why not make us perfect?
CD[/quote]

CD,

I would love to give an answer to this question, but unfortunately don’t have the time to answer it right now! Stick around on this thread and I’ll try to find time in the next day or so to do so. It is a very good question and deserves some time spent by me (or others on this thread) writing a proper answer.

Cheers,

Ben

193

[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
AlphaDragon wrote:
paul bunyan wrote:
This is strange because the bible only mentions creating men.

God Created Birds and Fish:
Genesis 1:20-23

God Creates “Beasts of the Earth”:
Genesis 1:24-25

God Creates Man:
Genesis 1:26-27

Man was created last out of everything.

And a “day” to the Lord…may not be a “day” as we define it.

I meant only men and not dinos. And how come the word “day” is not taken literally in the bible but everything else is?. How can you just pick and chose what you believe?[/quote]

I’m just going to hazard an uneducated guess as a growing Christian.

If it said…“And the Dinosaurs…” then there will always be people who say…“so, what about Sabretoothed Tigers?”…

and if It sais: “And the dinosaurs and Sabretoothed tigers…” then someone would ALWAYS say…“How about wooly Mammoths?” and so on.

To Christians, the actual specifics are not important as the Word is all-inclusive.

Besides, I figure Moses would have had to written more pages than from earth to the moon to list EVERYTHING that was made from God.

AND…remember that Moses was NOT a very educated man. We must remember that many authors of the time wrote only of what they knew.

I think of all the things I don’t know…and WOW, that’s alot. I assume that everyone is the same, of course.

So to point out flaws in writing because a SINGLE writer does not have all the answers is not prudent.

To challenge your other question I want you to answer me this:

“Why is it so important to take things so literally? Why are you nitpicking the smallest details in order to maintain your point instead of simply letting the Word speak to you?”

194

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

I am giving a personal opinion that Lorisco alienates and, if anything, makes me less inclined to embrace relgion. I suspect for others too. I am not asserting opinions as facts as you have done. I stand by what I said about Lorisco as compared to others. That is my OPINION of how he comes across.
[/quote]

It is not wise to ignore a relationship with God because you disagree with one individual. Perhaps you could look at this a different way. Is there a reason that God put Lorisco in front of you? Do you need to hear forceful speech?

195

Fellow believers, here’s something interesting I found in my NIV study Bible. It’s talking about some of the theories about the word “yom” which translates to “day” in Genesis 1:1 - 2:4

"There are several theories which interpret the six days of creation. The pictorial day theory claims that the six days mentioned in Genesis are the six days during which God revealed to Moses the events of creation. But the command to rest on the Sabbath (Ex 20:8-10) was based on the fact that God created the world in six days (Ex 20:11)
"The gap theory claims that Genesis 1:1 describes an original creation which was followed by the fall of Satan and a great divine judgment. Genesis 1:2 is identified as a description of the re-creation or restoration that took place… But the command in Exodus 20:8-11 to work for six literal days and rest on the seventh was based on God’s six days of work in creating the universe.
"The intermittent day theory claims that the days mentioned are literal days, but that they are separated by long periods of time. But the command in Exodus 20:8-11 would seem to lose its significance unless all of God’s creative activity took place within a period of six continuous days.
"The day-age theory claims that the Hebrew word “yom”, … translated “day,” is used to refer to periods of indefinite length, not nceessarily to literal days. While this is a viable meaning of the word (Jos 13:1, 24:31; 1Sa 14:18; Job 32:7), it is not the common meaning. Furthermore, the mentioin of “evening” and “morning” throughout chapter one seems to point to literal days. The same terms occur in Daniel 8:14, where the refer to literal days.
“The literal day theory holds that the universe was created in six literal days with no indefinite periods of time in between. Attempts to link the biblical account of creation in six literal days with no indefinite periods of time in between. Attemps to link the biblical account of creation with evolution are not supportable because the order of creation contradicts what would be scientifically necessary for an evolutionary process involving aeons of time (e.g. the creation of plants and trees before the sun, which would provide the light necessary to the photosynthesis that would cause vegetation to grow).”

So there you have it. Whatever “it” really is… Kind of sounds like they’re leaning toward a 6 literal day creation thing, but I’m biased.
Blessings to you…

196

I haven’t read through this whole thread, but I wanted to be quick to say that I am a Christian, saved by the power and blood of Jesus Christ, my SAVIOR! Nothing in my life has been the same since I made the decision on September 14th, 2003. I have been blessed in more ways than I could ever imagine. My past life is almost literally another life…unbelievable, except through the power of Jesus and the Holy Spirit changing me every day! Praise God!

197

[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
AlphaDragon wrote:
paul bunyan wrote:
This is strange because the bible only mentions creating men.

God Created Birds and Fish:
Genesis 1:20-23

God Creates “Beasts of the Earth”:
Genesis 1:24-25

God Creates Man:
Genesis 1:26-27

Man was created last out of everything.

And a “day” to the Lord…may not be a “day” as we define it.

I meant only men and not dinos. And how come the word “day” is not taken literally in the bible but everything else is?. How can you just pick and chose what you believe?[/quote]

Because we take it back to the Hebrew word “yom” which is what is really being debated. Could mean 24 hours, could mean a long time.

198

Revelations 1:18
Matthew 16:19
Ephesians 4:8-10
There are other verses that tie into this, but I can’t find them now, if you have a Bible that has good notes or references you should be able to find some more. Hope this helps.

199

Also, Matthew 12:40

201

Why has my willy dropped off?

Rainjack, was that you?!