t-men are from mars..

Training Bodybuilding
21

?Of course, there are exceptions to every rule, but more often than not, women require extensive lower body work, especially in the glute and thigh area in order to get that tight look.?

I always thought the ?tight look? came from having a low bf%.

?It’s very common for women to have two-leg training days per week, possibly training glutes/hams on one day and quads on the other.?

It is also common for men to have two leg training days per week. In fact I would venture to say that the most experienced t-men all have two leg days per week. I will also say that men need to pay just as much if not more attention to leg training them women do, simply because most mens legs suck! Also, how exactly do you train hams and glutes without training quads? Your quad day must include some form of squats which obviously also work the glutes. Hamstring movements will only effect the glutes to a small degree. Personally I prefer a quad dominant day and a hamstring dominant day.

?Another weak training area common for women is the shoulders. In order to get that T-Vixen look, she?s got to hit those delts and hit 'em hard.?

Im not exactly sure what the point is here. However I still stand by the theory that the best delt training comes from the heavy compound movements. I.e. overhead pressing, rowing, bench pressing etc? I think the above statement may lead women to believe that they need to spend hours doing useless iso shoulder exercises, instead of basing your routine around the ?money? exercises.

?Clearly, women were designed to be softer and rounder. This is why if you decided on any give day to walk into a random gym of your choice, you?d find the majority of women on the cardio machines and in the aerobics and spinning classes.?

No, its because of the ignorance that most women have when it comes to weight training, As well as a lack of self confidence to hit the gym with the men.

?On an average, women hold a more significant amount of body fat than men, approximately 10% more. So it makes sense that we also have a harder time staying lean and ripped year round, thus, requiring more time spent doing cardiovascular training, sometimes up to two cardio sessions per day to bring body fat levels down into the single digits.?

First, I don?t think anyone, especially women try to stay ripped year round. Secondly, if maintaining a low bf is important, then dietary adjustments should be made in favor of increased cardiovascular exercise.

22

[quote]
Thunder, what are you saying? Do you think her physique looks inconsistent with the training program she describes? [/quote]

I don’t know how this relates to anything I said, but you’ve missed my point.

23

This is just the kind of training article for women that makes me grit my teeth upon reading it.

The author lost me almost immediately with the following statement:

She wants to “tone and shape” her glutes, shed unwanted body fat and have more “definition.”

This is just the kind of presumptuous, condescending statement we see all too often in training articles directed towards women. I don’t need anybody, male or female, to tell me what I want. I know what I want. My goal is to build muscle and get strong, not to “tone and shape.”

I also find the following statement ridiculous:

I’m merely suggesting there are factors that make us different, factors to take into consideration before putting your girl through your training program.

I don’t need a man to make a training program for me either. I’m perfectly capable of figuring out things for myself.

Her recommendations of exercise choices for building those all-important delts are also off the mark. Most of the delt exercises the author lists will do nothing to build the delts on most women.

And where the hell are the back squats and deadlifts on her program?! Cable kickbacks. LOL

I also think advocating a woman should make it her goal to keep her BF% in the single digits year round is unrealistic and unhealthy.

All in all, I found this article very disappointing. I expect better from T-Mag.

P.S. I don’t want to snuggle on the couch while watching “Friends” either.

24

Some of the narrow minded replies to this thread are mind-boggling.

Kristen writes a non anabolic program aimed at females and the guru’s of their particular training styles are getting bent out of shape. This isn’t an end-all-be-all article that every female must follow.

This program is an option for females who have the same training goals as the author. Just as a Dave Tate article is an option for someone interested in power lifting, or an Ian King article may be an option for someone interested in building mass.

Why must every female have the same training goals as men? Sorry, but my girlfriend’s training goals are not to have lats the same size as mine. That doesn’t mean she doesn’t bust her ass in the gym. It just means she trains with a different purpose.

How about having an open mind for people with different goals? That’s the beauty of training; it can be adjusted depending on the goals of the individual.

25

Much love goes out to Thunder, P-Dog and the always, “right on the mark” MD.

I had a few more words to add, but after reading their excellent replies; why bother? They all said it.

The rest of you, are lost. Lost. Thank god I didn’t have anyone like you folks to “show me the way”. I had me…and after all these years, realize, I have “done good” by following my instincts.

Instincts that tell me this article was a throw back to the 80’s style of misinformation that was often thrown to women in fitness centers. I now see these same “throw back” style of training in the gyms; and I don’t see anytype of gains in their “physiques”. People toyling away on 30-minutes of cardio and then move onto the wee cable exercises. At least, that’s what I can see from my vantage point while on the lifting deck peforming such things as Oly-lifts and the compounds.

When are they going to realize that in the end, it’s not appearance (appearance is only a nice bonus “side effect”), but performance and quality in training and health that’s more important.

By focusing on performance, you receive improved strength, which then enhances self-empowerment and then let’s not go into the higher amounts of LBM that can be gained; which in turn increases the metabolism…and so it goes…

And this all goes for both men and women.

Let me add that I have a good friend who is a International Level Figure competitor with another respected federation. She trains with heavy compounds and Oly-lifts. And does not perform “6-days” of cardio. If she were to see that recommendation, she’d laugh. Oh, btw, she’s quite beautiful. I’d listen to her (if I was looking for training advice, woman to woman), rather than read this article.

By far.

26

I totally agree with Anderson on being open minded on different people goals.
If you don’t like Friends then change the channel or better yet just turn off the t.v.

27

I personally liked the article. And I know that my girlfriend loved it also. In fact, she trains almost exactly as the article describes.

I do agree that to get very lean, women may need to do more energy system work than men, this is true for various reasons (some of which were explained in the article).

My girlfriend does cardio work 4-6 times per week. She alternate between HIIT (1:2 fast:slow ratio) and steady pace cardio (30 minutes or so). Her weight sessions are done with me, and revolve around big compound movements performed for moderate reps (5-8 reps most of the time). We also do a lot of post-fatigue training (compound + isolation exercise).

I did a 7-sites body fat estimation yesterday as well as a body part measure and came up with:

Body fat%:11.7%
Upper arm: 13.5"
Waist: 27" (mostly due to huge spinal erectors)
Hips: 36"
Chest: 36"
Shoulders: 42"
Body weight: 127bs
Height: 5’5"

She is very defined, has striations in her shoulders and pectorals and a very dense upper back.

Would she gain more muscle by doing less energy system work? Maybe… But her trained loads are steadily increasing every week and so is her muscularity. So whatever she’s doing is working for her. I know that if I used the exact same strategy (energy system work 4-6 times/week) I would lose some muscle mass and would not end up being leaner. Plus, I would certainly lose strength. Which is far from the truth in her case.

Funny thing is that we have another competitive female bodybuilder in our gym. Right now she is either out of shape or in a severe bulking phase. There are two chubby young girls who idolize the other female BBer. Anyway, long story short, the girls all believed that doing cardio would eat away their muscle and that they should not do it. 3 weeks ago my GF was training in a tight sport top and leggings … they noticed that she was doing very intense interval work and first thing I know they’re all doing the same thing… go figure!

28

i agree with thunder, patricia, p-dog etc on this one. it did strike me as a hell of a lot of cardio! even if i dropped a dumbbell on my head and decided to do that much cardio, i doubt i’d find time with the proper training as well. i preferred the article on her website which encourages women to lift heavy. incidentally, there was also an article promoting soy protein…

29

OK. I`m no fitness expert, but, pardon the maybe too naive question…

Taking a black box systems approach, that 6 times a week cardio is obviously there to burn the excess energy that comes in. Why not simply lower the food intake reasonably? Less in, less to burn. Or less in, quicker burn-down. Its just cardio after all. Its only there to burn calories in the end.

(If the weight training remains, I would see no problem. After all, this is not a bulking program at start. More of a get lean and hittable at first glance.)

30

Lost?

Are we even reading the same article?

In addition to the six cardio sessions that has everyone in an uproar, I see recommendations for Lunges, SL Deadlifts, good mornings, squats, front squats, hack squats, lunges, dips and various free weight presses.

In fact, I’d love to see some of the naysayers make it through this training routine.

If the program isn’t consistent with your goals or you don’t see results that you want from the program, don’t do it. Simple as that. The program isn’t for everyone, and surprise, no program should be for everyone!

I have trained with my girlfriend for three years now, and she has experimented with a variety of programs and styles. She has found the best results for her goals when she has increased her cardio work in addition to maintaining her core lifts such as squats, bench presses, and rows etc.

Your results may vary.

31

Christian, you had mentioned once in this forum that your gf had built a solid foundation (physique) via siimilar training as strongman/woman with all the farm work she had performed. She had not performed, from what I understand, 6-days of cardio and practically unending reps/sets of such exercises as cable work. Which this article prescribes.

Also, in your article, “Fun With Women”, the added volume required in a woman’s training is like what, only two or three reps and about two or three in terms of sets, more than a man’s. Correct? As well as women should emphasize mult-joint, ie COMPOUND movements (and “some” isolation work), in their training. This article does not stress that. As a matter of fact, with all the isolation work and cardio outlined in the program, what energy would a woman have left to really focus on what is important: compound movements.

No one is suggesting a woman “bulk” up. That’s utterly ridiculous and certainly impossible for a woman to do. And I ain’t gonna even touch the topic of androgens here, since women who compete even in fitness take 'em. Not just limited to the “hulking” female bodybuilders.

Yes, every INDIVIDUAL is entitled to their own goals and aspirations. However, after seeing the results of programs typical to the one outlined in this article, results that are usually less than stellar…if there are ever any results, I have to go by what is in “Fun With Women” and the last two “Vixen Roundtables”. Womens should focus on strength training and the compound movements.

32

Why did I read this article when I could have just read Muscle & Fiction and gotten the same advice? I don’t understand.

33

[quote]
Let me add that I have a good friend who is a International Level Figure competitor with another respected federation. She trains with heavy compounds and Oly-lifts. And does not perform “6-days” of cardio. If she were to see that recommendation, she’d laugh. Oh, btw, she’s quite beautiful. I’d listen to her (if I was looking for training advice, woman to woman), rather than read this article.[/quote]

LOL

Considering that fact that I’ll be prepping this person for her show this year, I can assure you that there will be no ‘6 days of cardio’. Even if I did suggest it, I’m sure she’d tell me where to go.

34

Some of the naysayers are rather experienced. What naysayers do you think would struggle with this?

35

I am agreement with Anderson here are we all reading the same article? So we all disagree w/ Christian also?

In Health,

Silas C.

36

I’m gonna post a PM reply to someone who is just as dissapointed in this article (and thread) as I am.

"GEEZUS, have what I (and you, and others) been preaching for SO long on that site. Countless posts, statements in articles, along with pictures to show that what we say is possible/attainable. WHERE has that all gone to??

Deaf ears?? Blind eyes?? How can so many people have such short memory spans that they just cannot look back at all that written material?! GodFuckingDammit.

Excuse the swearing. But man…I am so freakin’ tired. And to have the utter audacity to say something like, “have you seen the picture of the author?” Well, uhm, yeah. And you know what? She should seriously ditch the isolation movements, cardio and focus on compounds. She’s got little muscle to show for her “hard” work. Whatever."

37

Hey everyone,

I know it’s been a long time since I’ve posted (due to this thing called a thesis)… but I want to contribute to this thread because I feel that it’s definitely worth it.

The article by Kristin was very well written and was back up by reputable scientific references which should solidify the reasoning behind her statements. Also, she backs up her recommendations with personal experience and personal success, which she’s applied to others who have also had such success. Obviously Kristin has done her homework before she sat down and decided to write this article. Her recommendations are directed to a proportion of the female population who have the same goals and abilities as her. They are also directed at women who don’t naturally carry a low level of bodyfat and have to work a little harder during times of the year when they are required (or desire) to be lean. She did reiterate that this training program was not designed to be followed for 12 months of the year, but rather it is one that can be used more appropriately for females for a certain period of time.

As knowledgable individuals we all should recognize that no person, neither a man nor woman, should ever train exactely the same way all year round. We all know that in order to make any progress with our training goals we need to periodize our workouts and try new things in order to prevent plateaus in either muscle gain or fat loss. Kristin presents one of these training cycles, and like I said, she did back it up with evidence rather than just with pure speculation. As readers it is our duty to investigate how an author comes up with certain conclusions and if there is no support for their ideas, we’d be more likely to deduce that their recommendations are not valid. For example, we all highly regard such authors as Lonnie and JB due to the fact that they research their topics heavily and in some cases practice what they preach in themselves or with their clients. Therefore not many us tend to argue with what these gentlemen have to say, and in the case with Kristin it shouldn’t be any different. Her writing ability, education, competitive history, life experience and fitness skills should be enough to tell us that this girl knows what she’s talking about.

Please just understand that we are all not the same people: we don’t have the same genes, we don’t have the same ethnicity, and we don’t have the same responses to certain treatments. This can be similarly compared to diet recommendations that are made for heart disease patients. As we are discovering, the traditional AHA low-fat, high carbohydrate diet guidelines for heart disease doesn’t have any benefit for some of these people. So science is now investigating if a different diet should be implemented to help prevent and treat this problem. One of these said diets is the low carbohydrate Atkins diet. Over the last few years, Atkins researchers have shown that this diet helps to decrease CVD risk by substantially lowering TG’s, LDL, and important inflammatory markers such as h-CRP in the population of CVD patients who don’t respond to AHA diets. With this evidence, new guidelines are emerging which fly in the face to what the AHA has long since believed.

So, just like the case with CVD, not every person in this world is constructed exactely the same. Therefore we shouldn’t even expect a single recommendation to be a cure-all for each person. Think of this now with regards to this training article and realize that it’s a very similar situation.

Also, I’d like to say that I myself have used this type of training during certain times of the year and it has helped me to reach my goals. For the last few months however, I’ve trained with minimal cardio and heavier weights, which is all part of the training cycle that I go through over the course of a year.

In conclusion, I enjoyed Kristin’s article, and I hope to see more writing from her in the future. There are obviously other people who enjoyed it and probably feel the same way. And for those who didn’t enjoy it, you are entitled to your own feelings, and can choose to just not read it.

Cassandra

38

Exactly.

39

“She should seriously ditch the isolation movements, cardio and focus on compounds.”

Since, when was Squats, Deadlifts, Lunges, Bent over rows, overhead shoulder press, ploymetrics, isolation movement. Although, I might agree w/ the execessive cardio 6 day in a row for both male and female is a little much. (but, since this is about lowering bf% I agree with the HITT approach. But, not a steady state cardio.

And not burst you bubbles Patricia.
you obvious do know what you are talking about.

But, most women do not want to look like you. They want more the Carmrea Electra, Jessica Simpson, or Brintey Spears look.

In Health,

Silas C.

40

Although I’m just “the nutrition guy”, I wanted to weigh in.

First - To Kristin - don’t sweat this type of debate. Welcome to T-mag. This is what it’s all about over here (for better or worse).

Second - Why take your philosophical hostilities out on individuals. Kristin contributes with an article based on her experience and she’s just about run out of town as if this one article represents the whole of who she is as a person.

You don’t agree with 1 article she’s written? Well then it’s definately a good time to start criticizing her style, her physique, anything you can.

Interestingly, in this forum - a place of debates, many are committing the worst debating fallacies ever. The first is called ad hominem - literally translated - against the (wo)man. It means attacking something about a person that’s unrelated to their argument. Don’t be an intellectual midget. Refute her argument in a stepwise manner or dont comment. (likewise, dont support her argument based on her physique or anything else peripheral…support it based on its major tenents).

Funny thing, in her absence, it’s especially easy to set up another fallacy - the straw man. In this one you set up a simplified, childish version of the person’s argument and then knock it down. Equally idiotic (people do this with religion and all sorts of other topics all the time).

Third - With respect to the content of the article - I thought it was pretty good. Some women (some very cute, feminine ones who have trained with me yet who are 115lbs doing 30 chins, who are 120 and squatting 315lbs for 5, who are 110 and benching 205, etc) have trouble with fat loss. Stubborn depots on hips or glutes sometimes need additional cardio work (or interval work) as an adjunct to their heavy training as Kristin suggested. Certainly some don’t. But either way, if the fitness look is your goal, you’re gonna have to train very heavy most of the year (cardio or not) and, in 90-95% of the women, when you really wanna be lean (ripped, whatever), some energy system or cardio work is a must. I’ve very rarely seen a bb or fitness “chick” body that was super lean and “cardio-free”.

But let’s face it, the most fit men and women are “walking anatomy charts” because of a propensity to be that way in addition to their hard work. To be honest, I could never be a big fat guy. I could ignore my body and walk around at 18% with little muscle. But I could never be obese (I suspect many of the posters here are similar). Therefore to suggest that some women or men need to do exactly what I do because “I look good” is a bit nieve. I know that some people who work as hard as me might not be able to get down to 4% or 5% fat and keep the fat below 8% year-round. For them, they may need a bit more cardio, or fewer kcal, or one of a number of additional peturbations.

In addition, whether you like it or not, some of my female friends don’t even want to even look like fitness girls. That’s right - shock, gasp - some of them are interested in looking more long and angular. It’s a whole style of beauty not appreciated here but is very popular in the modeling world. So what about these girls. Should they just start heavy squattin’ with no cardio? That’s BS. Either they eat like a waif and become sickly looking or alternatively they start eating properly and do more cardio (preferably interval) and hard weights relatively infrequently (2-3x per week).

So clearly it is an individual thing. In the end, the only problem I saw with the article is that Kristin might not have been clear enough with her prescription (in terms of who it’s for and when to use it). But it’s also clear that she had no idea what she was getting into when she innocently submitted an article designed to help people reach their goals. After all, this is the Testosterone Inquisition and if you swim against the current in this little pond, one of the big fish may try to drown you.

JB