Surge, OGTT, Oats, Glucose Meter?

Diet and Nutrition
1


Lately I’ve been working out for an hour from 9:30am-10:30am, this is after a meal of Oatmeal/Grow! Whey/Flaxseed around 7am. During the workout I drink (1) scoop of Surge, immediately afterwards 10:40-45am I’ll drink another (2) scoops of Surge with 5g Creatine.

I then have class from 11:00am-12:15. About 15 minutes into class, 11:15am, I feel completely wasted: poor attention, fatigue, inability to keep my eye’s open, my head dropping like I’m falling asleep.

I know these problems are directly attributable to having taken Surge, so I did a little experiment.

The yellow line is my blood sugar after consuming the oatmeal first thing in the morning. The meal is satisfying for about an hour & half, then at 1.5 to 2.5 hours afterwards I get hungry and sleepy again.

The purple line is from an Oral Glucose Tolerance Test (75g) performed by my doctor.

The blue line is my blood sugar after consuming (2) scoops of Surge & 5g Creatine in a fasted state first thing in the morning. The additional dip at 2 hours is probably just due to measurement error by the glucose monitor.

During my Surge experiment I felt decent/good for the first 30 minutes, at 45 minutes I felt wasted, sleepy, fatigued, bombed. For the next 15 minutes the symptoms got even worse. At an hour after consumption, symptoms leveled off and I felt like garden variety crap for the next hours & half.

One day I tried to counter act the blood sugar drop induced by Surge by drinking chocolate milk (~370 cal, 5g fat, 60g carb, 18g protein) 30 minutes after drinking Surge. It didn’t help one bit, I was just as sleepy / out-of-it than if I had not taken anything at all.

Anyone make any sense out of this?

2

Why the FlaxSeed in a Post workout drink?

3

[quote]caladin wrote:
Why the FlaxSeed in a Post workout drink?[/quote]

The flaxseed was with breakfast, not the PWO drink. PWO was (2) scoops Surge, 5g Creatine.

4

Take some complex carbs with a meal after the Surge to stabilize your blood sugar levels and prevent that energy drop.

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[quote]tomblin wrote:During my Surge experiment I felt decent/good for the first 30 minutes, at 45 minutes I felt wasted, sleepy, fatigued, bombed. For the next 15 minutes the symptoms got even worse. At an hour after consumption, symptoms leveled off and I felt like garden variety crap for the next hours & half.

One day I tried to counter act the blood sugar drop induced by Surge by drinking chocolate milk (~370 cal, 5g fat, 60g carb, 18g protein) 30 minutes after drinking Surge. It didn’t help one bit, I was just as sleepy / out-of-it than if I had not taken anything at all.

Anyone make any sense out of this?
[/quote]

If this is the case, have a meal consiting of lower GI/II carbs within 30 minutes of consuming Surge.

If I’m rushed for time I’ll have a Metabolic Drive Bar to hold me over until I can get a larger feeding in.

6

the blue line dip is problaby not an error the meters are 10% accurate i check my blood 8 times a day.i just cant use Surge it makes me feel like dog shit i just toss 2slices of wht bread with some wpi and slam it. i know its not as good as Surge but i dont feel like ass

7

[quote]Mod Brian wrote:
tomblin wrote:During my Surge experiment I felt decent/good for the first 30 minutes, at 45 minutes I felt wasted, sleepy, fatigued, bombed. For the next 15 minutes the symptoms got even worse. At an hour after consumption, symptoms leveled off and I felt like garden variety crap for the next hours & half.

One day I tried to counter act the blood sugar drop induced by Surge by drinking chocolate milk (~370 cal, 5g fat, 60g carb, 18g protein) 30 minutes after drinking Surge. It didn’t help one bit, I was just as sleepy / out-of-it than if I had not taken anything at all.

Anyone make any sense out of this?

If this is the case, have a meal consiting of lower GI/II carbs within 30 minutes of consuming Surge.

If I’m rushed for time I’ll have a Metabolic Drive Bar to hold me over until I can get a larger feeding in.[/quote]

Today during my workout, 9:30-10:30am, I had my usual (1) scoop of Surge, PWO I took 50g Maltodextrin, 20g Grow!, 10g Glutamine, 5g Creatine. Same problem as before, only delayed about 10 additional minutes.

Next time I’ll try a homemade oatmeal bar (oats, whey, egg) at +20-25min post-Surge.

8

Surge isn’t a meal.

It’s recommended that you have a meal not too long after the Surge… otherwise you are going to have a blood sugar collapse like your chart shows.

For the life of me I can’t understand why anyone would try to go to class with nothing but a post workout serving of Surge to get them through it…

?

9

I agree with vroom:

Much like someone with diabetes has to eat after taking insulin, you have to eat a good solid meal after “Surge”.

It SOUNDS like the “Surge” is doing what it’s supposed to do. (i.e. spike insulin).

Mufasa

10

The graph contain blood sugar levels. When your blood sugar levels are a little to high, insulin gets released so that it lowers it and it lets the body store the excess sugar for later use. If you have a blood sugar spike, chances are that there’s a BIG insulin spike that will induce something called secondary hypoglycemia (or hyperinsulinemic hypoglycemia, ie : insulin-induced low blood sugar levels).

There would be 2 ways to counter this :

  1. lower the glycemic index of the meal by adding food that will lower the GI ( extremely low GI carbs or some protein could lower it a little too but not by much, fiber and fats would be preferable)

  2. Lower the glycemic index by not taking high GI carbs at a time where your body isn’t ready for it.

Surge has a high GI and should be consumed preferably when your body’s insulin sensitivity is the best, which is after a workout.

11

Also Surge is not necessary or advisable after every workout. I have no idea what your regime is like, and only you know how intense it is. But if you don’t feel shakey with exhaustion, drenched with sweat after your workout, you probably don’t require Surge, the point of which is to accelerate “recovery” (meaning you need to have done enough in the first place to necessitate “recovery”). If you do a few sets of bench press and curls at most of your workouts and then consume Surge, then it’ll basically have an effect like candy (spiking your blood sugar and then leading to a crash).

Somebody with a Ph.d. should step in here and correct me, if necessary, but for anyone not a ectomorphic hardgainer I truly don’t see the point of drinking Surge during a workout, however intense, since it just interfers with the insulin spike you’re looking for pw.

Reccomendations:

  1. re-evaluate whether you need Surge at all every workout.

  2. don’t drink it during the workout.

  3. eat at least 30grams of protein and some low gyclemic carbs within 45 minutes after working out.

good luck

12

I don’t really have much to add as the other posters already made good points, but I must say I am impressed with the research that was done!

At least it brought about an intelligent conversation, not just “go do a search”.

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You don’t just get to knock in loads of fast acting carbs and proteins just because you were in the gym for an hour - it doesn’t work like that. You’ve got to bust yourself in the gym to the point where you NEED the nutrients in Surge and you need them fast. And if you’re using a scoop during the workout, and two afterwards, then that had better be a tough fuckin’ workout or you better be a big lug.

Basically you’re putting your blood sugar up too high and your crashing. You need to have less, or work out harder, or get bigger.

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[quote]t-ha wrote:
Basically you’re putting your blood sugar up too high and your crashing. You need to have less, or work out harder, or get bigger.[/quote]

Working out harder doesn’t negate the blood sugar crash, getting bigger is obviously the goal. My workout are intense.

I’m not a big guy, 6’1", 179 lbs, so getting larger is the objective. Hell, Berardi in his Scrawy to Brawny text recommends 3 drinks just like Surge peri-workout. One before, One during, One after.

Furthermore my body sucks at recovery. I’ve been dealing with unbearable fatigue for the last two years now and need all the help I can get.

15

Very cool experiment, but it’s unfortunate that you had to repeatedly experience the side effects.

The blood sugar crash was covered when Surge first came out and again here:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459463

But obviously not everyone is going to be aware of such information. So it seems that “what we’ve got here is failure to communicate” (cue the whistling).

It’s great to graphically see the differences between morning Surge and during/PWO (I’d stick to just PWO FTW BTW). Can you throw up the OGTT data?

Also, it seems like you need to eat more frequently (overall) and this article may help you with meal timing: http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1025241

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[quote]Redbones27 wrote:
Also Surge is not necessary or advisable after every workout. I have no idea what your regime is like, and only you know how intense it is. But if you don’t feel shakey with exhaustion, drenched with sweat after your workout, you probably don’t require Surge, the point of which is to accelerate “recovery” (meaning you need to have done enough in the first place to necessitate “recovery”). If you do a few sets of bench press and curls at most of your workouts and then consume Surge, then it’ll basically have an effect like candy (spiking your blood sugar and then leading to a crash).

Somebody with a Ph.d. should step in here and correct me, if necessary, but for anyone not a ectomorphic hardgainer I truly don’t see the point of drinking Surge during a workout, however intense, since it just interfers with the insulin spike you’re looking for pw.

Reccomendations:

  1. re-evaluate whether you need Surge at all every workout.

  2. don’t drink it during the workout.

  3. eat at least 30grams of protein and some low gyclemic carbs within 45 minutes after working out.

good luck[/quote]

Well, I think it is to be understood that Surge is recommended for any lifter looking to optimize strength and mass gains from intense workouts designed for strength and mass gains.

I agree with you in that if someone was doing a Richard Simmons type of workout bouncing to the oldies on a bosu ball then I would say nix the Surge. However, this fellow sounds like one who is lifting for the type of gains mentioned. I don’t agree with your assertion that unless you are shaky and on the verge of collapse that’s the only time you need Surge.

On another note, I have used my Surge postworkout and then eaten a solid meal within one to two hours later and I have never felt this insulin crash or drop. Maybe something else is wrong? I do get hungry if it gets closer to the two hour mark, but no queasy weak feelings to speak of.

D

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[quote]David Barr wrote:
Very cool experiment, but it’s unfortunate that you had to repeatedly experience the side effects.

The blood sugar crash was covered when Surge first came out and again here:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459463

But obviously not everyone is going to be aware of such information. So it seems that “what we’ve got here is failure to communicate” (cue the whistling).[/quote]

I’m trying to figure out what a blood sugar crash so soon after drinking Surge would indicate? Good glucose handling, impaired glucose handling? I’ve had problems with fatigue for a long time now and I’m trying my best to optimize my nutrition based upon my own physiology. Common complaints are concurrent with blood sugar problems: excessive thirst, hunger, urination. This lead me to buying a glucose meter and experimenting.

Looking at the data it also seems the side effects start right at the peak. I always thought it was the low blood sugar that lead to problems. It seems I’m getting problems right as blood sugar peaks and starts to drop, shouldn’t this occur after blood sugar drops, not during?

[quote]
It’s great to graphically see the differences between morning Surge and during/PWO (I’d stick to just PWO FTW BTW). Can you throw up the OGTT data?[/quote]

Surge:

0:00 → 87 mg/dl
0:15 → 98 mg/dl
0:30 → 118 mg/dl
0:45 → 117 mg/dl
1:00 → 89 mg/dl
1:30 → 89 mg/dl
2:00 → 72 mg/dl
2:30 → 90 mg/dl

Oatmeal:

6:00 Wake-up.
6:30 Fasting Glucose 92 mg/dl
6:30-7:00 Breakfast:

1c Oats, 1/3c Grow!, 2T Ground Flaxseed, Splash Milk; Coffee (1T Light Creamer/ Splash Milk); (2) Servings Baby Carrots; (3) Fish Oil Capsules (850mg, 440mg EPA/DHA).

636 cal, 17g Fat, 82g Carb (15g Fiber), 39g Protein.
(24% Fat, 51% Carb, 24% Protein)

7:30 Glucose 86 mg/dl (+1/2 hr)
8:00 Glucose 104 mg/dl (+1 hr)
8:30 Glucose 106 mg/dl (+1.5 hr)
9:00 Glucose 89 mg/dl (+2 hr)
10:30 Glucose 82 mg/dl (+3.5 hr)

Granted I don’t usually go this long without eating again, I did this time for the sake of data collection.

75g Glucose (OGTT):

0:00 → 90 mg/dl, Insulin → 7.1 uIU/mL
0:30 → 124 mg/dl
1:00 → 68 mg/dl
2:00 → 65 mg/dl
3:00 → 66 mg/dl

[quote]
Also, it seems like you need to eat more frequently (overall) and this article may help you with meal timing: http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1025241[/quote]

I remember reading that article when it first came out and not “getting it”. For some reason reading it this time it clicked.

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[quote]Dedicated wrote:

On another note, I have used my Surge postworkout and then eaten a solid meal within one to two hours later and I have never felt this insulin crash or drop. Maybe something else is wrong? I do get hungry if it gets closer to the two hour mark, but no queasy weak feelings to speak of.

D[/quote]

I’m wondering if the problem is a blood sugar drop, or an insulin drop. I know their correlated, but not exactly. The symptoms seem to occur right as blood sugar peaks, not after it has dropped. This makes me think the immediate source of the problem is insulin. Furthermore, taking in 2c Chocolate Milk (30 min post Surge, high II, low GI) didn’t seem to help at all.

19

i make a 3 scoop serving of Surge with 5 grams creatine and start sipping it before my workout. I finish it by the end of the workout. i don’t understand why people would wait to take a serving after the workout unless it was not possible to have it during training. I just look at it from the point of digestive time and blood transport time.

i’ve read that gulping increases gastric emptying but who wants to feel a little full while they train. also i’ve read that if you induce too high of an insulin spike during your workouts (drinking a serving before you train), it diminishes performance.

maybe if you drank all three scoops at a slow manner and then had a low gi meal after the workout you would be ok. laters pk

20

[quote]tomblin wrote:

I’m wondering if the problem is a blood sugar drop, or an insulin drop. I know their correlated, but not exactly. The symptoms seem to occur right as blood sugar peaks, not after it has dropped. This makes me think the immediate source of the problem is insulin. Furthermore, taking in 2c Chocolate Milk (30 min post Surge, high II, low GI) didn’t seem to help at all.[/quote]

Did you see my post ?
High blood sugar → high insulin response → important drop in blood sugar levels.

The problem is that the release of insulin is too important and makes your blood sugar levels drop below what would be optimal.