Suck at Reps

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
21

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]mkral55 wrote:

[quote]NorthWest Power wrote:

[quote]mkral55 wrote:
I dont really have anything to back this up, more just an opinion: getting stronger at squatting reps means you are stronger. Getting a higher 1RM squat means you are better at squatting (With a huge amount of overlap both ways) I wonder if this makes any sense haha.

Anyways, if you only got 77% of your max for 2 reps, something is off there. Maybe you are better at squatting than you are strong? Sounds kinda silly but maybe its a weakness you can target with rep work. I dunno though, the extreme you described there makes me think something else is goin on. [/quote]

I dunno. Read In a article that tom platz challenged a man to a squat competition, Couldn’t squat as much as him (think it was around 600) but when they stripped a hundred pounds off the bar platz Smashed out 22 reps,while the other guy only got around 10,[/quote]

This is basically supporting my point. The PLer was “better at squatting” and Platz was physically stronger. I can understand how that doesnt make sense though. PLing is not all about pure strength, its also about leverages and reinforcing motor patterns.

Also obviously Platz spent more time in that rep range than the PLer did, so clearly hes gonna have a relative advantage there. [/quote]
Well, this is simply a matter of definitions. What does it mean to be good at squatting and what does it mean to be strong? You defined it one way. So by your definition Hatfield was better at squatting and Platz was stronger. That neither supports nor refutes your point. You just assumed that your definition was correct and then used circular logic. [/quote]

True enough. You will notice the very first sentence up there. Its definitely a matter of definitions and this is the way that makes most sense to me. If anything its a perspective that the OP can take to consider his question.

22

Strength is specific to what you train for. Yes, there will be carry over to other activities but not as much as if you specifically prepared for those other activities. It’s just a matter of trying to figure out how to program your training to have the most transfer to the big 3 in PL and reps is one of them for some people.

To the OP. If you’ve never tried a program that involves a higher volume with the main lifts, I’d just give it a shot and see where you go. Maybe you’ll love it after a while, maybe you’ll get nothing out of it. There’s only one way to find out.

23

[quote]mkral55 wrote:

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]mkral55 wrote:

[quote]NorthWest Power wrote:

[quote]mkral55 wrote:
I dont really have anything to back this up, more just an opinion: getting stronger at squatting reps means you are stronger. Getting a higher 1RM squat means you are better at squatting (With a huge amount of overlap both ways) I wonder if this makes any sense haha.

Anyways, if you only got 77% of your max for 2 reps, something is off there. Maybe you are better at squatting than you are strong? Sounds kinda silly but maybe its a weakness you can target with rep work. I dunno though, the extreme you described there makes me think something else is goin on. [/quote]

I dunno. Read In a article that tom platz challenged a man to a squat competition, Couldn’t squat as much as him (think it was around 600) but when they stripped a hundred pounds off the bar platz Smashed out 22 reps,while the other guy only got around 10,[/quote]

This is basically supporting my point. The PLer was “better at squatting” and Platz was physically stronger. I can understand how that doesnt make sense though. PLing is not all about pure strength, its also about leverages and reinforcing motor patterns.

Also obviously Platz spent more time in that rep range than the PLer did, so clearly hes gonna have a relative advantage there. [/quote]
Well, this is simply a matter of definitions. What does it mean to be good at squatting and what does it mean to be strong? You defined it one way. So by your definition Hatfield was better at squatting and Platz was stronger. That neither supports nor refutes your point. You just assumed that your definition was correct and then used circular logic. [/quote]

True enough. You will notice the very first sentence up there. Its definitely a matter of definitions and this is the way that makes most sense to me. If anything its a perspective that the OP can take to consider his question.
[/quote]

Its simply a matter of strength endurance vs absolute strength. Hatfield was stronger than Platz, however, Platz could rep a very high percentage of his strength over a longer period of time than Hatfield could. Granted Hatfield was 51 and Platz was 38 when the contest occurred.

24

I guess it would also help to know if the OP is squatting in gear or raw, what class he squats in, what his warmup looks like on westside vs 5/3/1, and other relevant information. I mean we could go into postulating what type of muscle fiber the OP is dominant in, CNS activation patterns, leverages of each lifter, cellular metabolism during a lift, the difference between BB and PL squats/training, and other very scientific talk like we used to do back in the day here on T-Nation. I am sure we can go all day on this kind of stuff, and in know that there are a ton of guys on here who would gladly go round on the subject.

When all else fails, I am going to recommend getting better at reps to build baseline strength. Most top guys who write for raw PL seem to think this is a pretty good idea. I am not saying that you need to go hit a 20 rep max or something, but 2 at 315 vs 1 at 405 is pretty far off.

Also, I am sorry to say this, but I am beginning to smell a bit of a trolling attempt. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A PLATES WORTH (90 lbs) OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HIS ONE REP MAX AND HIS TWO REP MAX. I mean how does a 405 squatter not understand these things? It isn’t like it is his first time under the barbell. You MUST have a decent lifting IQ to use a conjugate system effectively, or have a coach or partner who would be able to assist you in this answer.

It just doesn’t sound right. Something is off. I apologize if this is actually the situation and I am just being a jerk, but it just doesn’t add up.

25

The guy who squats more is stronger. No one gives a shit who squats the most reps @ X weight. What matters is who can squat the most weight. If you think differently you ought to look for the CrossFit forum, not the PLing forum, because you’re concerned about some hybrid between lifting and aerobics (or “being fit” as they like to call it).

That’s a different question than whether working at higher rep ranges is a more effective way for OP to bring up his squat. OP – if you were having good success adding pounds to your squat in the past, I wouldn’t worry too much about the fact you “suck at reps.” Increasing your rep strength could help for a variety of reasons, but it could also be less effective than what has already been working for you. If Westside programming is moving your squat I’d stick with that.

26

I’d also note that Westside programming coming out of a meet would already have you working to improve your GPP, conditioning, hypertrophy etc. in the first few weeks. Lactic tolerance training on DE days, more reps @ slightly lower intensities on ME days, increased volume for accessory work, etc.

The hypertrophy and improved conditioning/GPP will be then put to good use as your training intensifies and the focus is shifted toward increasing absolute strength, instead of continuing to focus on your REs when it’s the 1RM that matters in this sport.

27

[quote]trivium wrote:
I guess it would also help to know if the OP is squatting in gear or raw, what class he squats in, what his warmup looks like on westside vs 5/3/1, and other relevant information. I mean we could go into postulating what type of muscle fiber the OP is dominant in, CNS activation patterns, leverages of each lifter, cellular metabolism during a lift, the difference between BB and PL squats/training, and other very scientific talk like we used to do back in the day here on T-Nation. I am sure we can go all day on this kind of stuff, and in know that there are a ton of guys on here who would gladly go round on the subject.

When all else fails, I am going to recommend getting better at reps to build baseline strength. Most top guys who write for raw PL seem to think this is a pretty good idea. I am not saying that you need to go hit a 20 rep max or something, but 2 at 315 vs 1 at 405 is pretty far off.

Also, I am sorry to say this, but I am beginning to smell a bit of a trolling attempt. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A PLATES WORTH (90 lbs) OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HIS ONE REP MAX AND HIS TWO REP MAX. I mean how does a 405 squatter not understand these things? It isn’t like it is his first time under the barbell. You MUST have a decent lifting IQ to use a conjugate system effectively, or have a coach or partner who would be able to assist you in this answer.

It just doesn’t sound right. Something is off. I apologize if this is actually the situation and I am just being a jerk, but it just doesn’t add up.[/quote]

I don’t think this was necessary. Remember, maintaining tightness and form can be hard with reps; just because he struggled to get two reps with 315 doesn’t mean it’s his real 2RM - he could simply lose form or struggle to keep tight so stop there. The ability to perform squat reps with heavy weight does not come without practise, and can be lost very quickly. I can recall doing sets of six a while ago after nothing more than singles/doubles/triples for a while and struggling to take a full breath the next day due to sore intercostal muscles or diaphragm I believe - breathing and maintaining tension for long periods of time with hundreds of pounds on one’s back tends not to come easily.

On a separate note, I think the idea of finding a weakness in a lifter and getting them to improve upon it “for the sake of it”, almost, is flawed unless the weakness is in the maximal squat, bench press and/or deadlift performance. The ability to lift sub-maximal weight for multiple repetitions is clearly not required in powerlifting, so training for this ability at the expense of further gain in 1RM is never sensible. Why bother?

If the benefits of extra volume (hypertrophy, extra practise of the lift) are the reason for adding repetitions, could sub-maximal singles not fulfill the same role?
All I’m saying is don’t get distracted in the pursuit of a non-specific target at the expense of your main goal, and do not follow the convention of high rep training without reason - “Philosophise with a sledgehammer” as Nietzsche said…

28

Im not a troll haha, Idk, maybe it was a bad day in the gym or whatever, but what happened was that i was gonna start 5/3/1, and the last set on my first day was 315x5, couldnt get it, so made me question if i should continue the program or not, if i did id have to use lower maxes for my reps and since the progress is slow i wanted to know if itd be better just to do something else, Just clarifying,

Im 16 btw,
5’8 180,
405 squat,
365 dead
205 bench

I was even instructed By one of my Coaches to just start back over with SS, build up my base strength, Thoughts?

29

[quote]NorthWest Power wrote:
Im not a troll haha, Idk, maybe it was a bad day in the gym or whatever, but what happened was that i was gonna start 5/3/1, and the last set on my first day was 315x5, couldnt get it, so made me question if i should continue the program or not, if i did id have to use lower maxes for my reps and since the progress is slow i wanted to know if itd be better just to do something else, Just clarifying,

Im 16 btw,
5’8 180,
405 squat,
365 dead
205 bench

I was even instructed By one of my Coaches to just start back over with SS, build up my base strength, Thoughts?[/quote]

My guess is that you should squat deeper. I haven’t seen you squat, but it’s weird that you squat that much more than you deadlift. Add the fact that it’s weird that you squat that much more for one than you do for two. I bet you didn’t hit depth on the 405.

30

[quote]Silyak wrote:

[quote]NorthWest Power wrote:
Im not a troll haha, Idk, maybe it was a bad day in the gym or whatever, but what happened was that i was gonna start 5/3/1, and the last set on my first day was 315x5, couldnt get it, so made me question if i should continue the program or not, if i did id have to use lower maxes for my reps and since the progress is slow i wanted to know if itd be better just to do something else, Just clarifying,

Im 16 btw,
5’8 180,
405 squat,
365 dead
205 bench

I was even instructed By one of my Coaches to just start back over with SS, build up my base strength, Thoughts?[/quote]

My guess is that you should squat deeper. I haven’t seen you squat, but it’s weird that you squat that much more than you deadlift. Add the fact that it’s weird that you squat that much more for one than you do for two. I bet you didn’t hit depth on the 405. [/quote]
I did hit depth, I probably can do alot more for 2, Again bad day in the gym im taking, But Ive never really done a runthrough completely of ss, I dont wanna Pull the genetic card but I was Just dicking around with other programs for a year,So i think i am just gonna Go back and run through SS,Starting with 50% of a 5 rep max, ( Just recently got serious about training, My bad, Should have pointed that out in the first place.

31

[quote]Rock978 wrote:
The guy who squats more is stronger. No one gives a shit who squats the most reps @ X weight. What matters is who can squat the most weight. If you think differently you ought to look for the CrossFit forum, not the PLing forum, because you’re concerned about some hybrid between lifting and aerobics (or “being fit” as they like to call it).

That’s a different question than whether working at higher rep ranges is a more effective way for OP to bring up his squat. OP – if you were having good success adding pounds to your squat in the past, I wouldn’t worry too much about the fact you “suck at reps.” Increasing your rep strength could help for a variety of reasons, but it could also be less effective than what has already been working for you. If Westside programming is moving your squat I’d stick with that.[/quote]

Okay, okay, I understand this is a PL subforum so everything gets cast in that light, but really? You dont think its even open to debate as to who was “stronger” in the case of that squat challenge? Repping out that weight for those reps is hardly CrossFit level aerobics or being fit, its a damn impressive strength feat. Applicable to PL? Maybe not directly, I will admit. But theres another sport out there called Strongman that very, very often looks at this kind of thing to determine who is “The Worlds Strongest Man”. Its not necessarily always the guy with the higher 1RM. Again, I know this is the PL forum so we care about 1RM over everything, but I dont think its so crazy to isolate this as a weakness that can be fixed, especially in the case of a 90 pound disparity between a 1RM and a heavy double.

Maybe Im over-reacting a bit here but I feel like a simple idle idea is kinda being attacked, but I stick to it. And I’ll even go another step with it: yes OP, I personally have no doubt whatsoever that you can improve with rep work, be it at powerlifting specifically or just getting stronger, whether you think those two things are exactly the same thing or not.

32

[quote]NorthWest Power wrote:
Im not a troll haha, Idk, maybe it was a bad day in the gym or whatever, but what happened was that i was gonna start 5/3/1, and the last set on my first day was 315x5, couldnt get it, so made me question if i should continue the program or not, if i did id have to use lower maxes for my reps and since the progress is slow i wanted to know if itd be better just to do something else, Just clarifying,

Im 16 btw,
5’8 180,
405 squat,
365 dead
205 bench

I was even instructed By one of my Coaches to just start back over with SS, build up my base strength, Thoughts?[/quote]

I wouldn’t start over. I don’t think there is a need for that. I am guessing that by your numbers you are a natural squatter?

33

[quote]trivium wrote:

[quote]NorthWest Power wrote:
Im not a troll haha, Idk, maybe it was a bad day in the gym or whatever, but what happened was that i was gonna start 5/3/1, and the last set on my first day was 315x5, couldnt get it, so made me question if i should continue the program or not, if i did id have to use lower maxes for my reps and since the progress is slow i wanted to know if itd be better just to do something else, Just clarifying,

Im 16 btw,
5’8 180,
405 squat,
365 dead
205 bench

I was even instructed By one of my Coaches to just start back over with SS, build up my base strength, Thoughts?[/quote]

I wouldn’t start over. I don’t think there is a need for that. I am guessing that by your numbers you are a natural squatter?[/quote]

Definitely,I consider myself lucky with these numbers With knowing nothing about lifting for awhile, What would you do if you were me?

34

[quote]mkral55 wrote:

[quote]Rock978 wrote:
The guy who squats more is stronger. No one gives a shit who squats the most reps @ X weight. What matters is who can squat the most weight. If you think differently you ought to look for the CrossFit forum, not the PLing forum, because you’re concerned about some hybrid between lifting and aerobics (or “being fit” as they like to call it).

That’s a different question than whether working at higher rep ranges is a more effective way for OP to bring up his squat. OP – if you were having good success adding pounds to your squat in the past, I wouldn’t worry too much about the fact you “suck at reps.” Increasing your rep strength could help for a variety of reasons, but it could also be less effective than what has already been working for you. If Westside programming is moving your squat I’d stick with that.[/quote]

Okay, okay, I understand this is a PL subforum so everything gets cast in that light, but really? You dont think its even open to debate as to who was “stronger” in the case of that squat challenge? Repping out that weight for those reps is hardly CrossFit level aerobics or being fit, its a damn impressive strength feat. Applicable to PL? Maybe not directly, I will admit. But theres another sport out there called Strongman that very, very often looks at this kind of thing to determine who is “The Worlds Strongest Man”. Its not necessarily always the guy with the higher 1RM. Again, I know this is the PL forum so we care about 1RM over everything, but I dont think its so crazy to isolate this as a weakness that can be fixed, especially in the case of a 90 pound disparity between a 1RM and a heavy double.

Maybe Im over-reacting a bit here but I feel like a simple idle idea is kinda being attacked, but I stick to it. And I’ll even go another step with it: yes OP, I personally have no doubt whatsoever that you can improve with rep work, be it at powerlifting specifically or just getting stronger, whether you think those two things are exactly the same thing or not.
[/quote]

I too may be guilty of an over reaction, however I don’t want the kid to think that reps are garbage and that he should only do singles. I think that would severely detrimental to his progress over a long period of time.

I can just see that some people on this forum are going to call strongman “glorified crossfit” after this comment haha. I have to say this was a well written post.

I am going to make a somewhat of a logical fallacy to try to make my point here. I admit that. Do you think that if you took a guy who squats say 405 for one rep, and worked with him until he squatted 405 for five reps, that he would be stronger than he was before?

OP you should google “Reps. Strength training pixie dust magical unicorns.” It is an article that will help you. I cannot link to it. It will help you see the point I am trying to make.

In fact there are a ton of systems based on rep work.

35

[quote]trivium wrote:

[quote]mkral55 wrote:

[quote]Rock978 wrote:
The guy who squats more is stronger. No one gives a shit who squats the most reps @ X weight. What matters is who can squat the most weight. If you think differently you ought to look for the CrossFit forum, not the PLing forum, because you’re concerned about some hybrid between lifting and aerobics (or “being fit” as they like to call it).

That’s a different question than whether working at higher rep ranges is a more effective way for OP to bring up his squat. OP – if you were having good success adding pounds to your squat in the past, I wouldn’t worry too much about the fact you “suck at reps.” Increasing your rep strength could help for a variety of reasons, but it could also be less effective than what has already been working for you. If Westside programming is moving your squat I’d stick with that.[/quote]

Okay, okay, I understand this is a PL subforum so everything gets cast in that light, but really? You dont think its even open to debate as to who was “stronger” in the case of that squat challenge? Repping out that weight for those reps is hardly CrossFit level aerobics or being fit, its a damn impressive strength feat. Applicable to PL? Maybe not directly, I will admit. But theres another sport out there called Strongman that very, very often looks at this kind of thing to determine who is “The Worlds Strongest Man”. Its not necessarily always the guy with the higher 1RM. Again, I know this is the PL forum so we care about 1RM over everything, but I dont think its so crazy to isolate this as a weakness that can be fixed, especially in the case of a 90 pound disparity between a 1RM and a heavy double.

Maybe Im over-reacting a bit here but I feel like a simple idle idea is kinda being attacked, but I stick to it. And I’ll even go another step with it: yes OP, I personally have no doubt whatsoever that you can improve with rep work, be it at powerlifting specifically or just getting stronger, whether you think those two things are exactly the same thing or not.
[/quote]

I too may be guilty of an over reaction, however I don’t want the kid to think that reps are garbage and that he should only do singles. I think that would severely detrimental to his progress over a long period of time.

I can just see that some people on this forum are going to call strongman “glorified crossfit” after this comment haha. I have to say this was a well written post.

I am going to make a somewhat of a logical fallacy to try to make my point here. I admit that. Do you think that if you took a guy who squats say 405 for one rep, and worked with him until he squatted 405 for five reps, that he would be stronger than he was before?

OP you should google “Reps. Strength training pixie dust magical unicorns.” It is an article that will help you. I cannot link to it. It will help you see the point I am trying to make.

In fact there are a ton of systems based on rep work.[/quote]
Hahah thought i was deff getting trolled there for a second

36

[quote]NorthWest Power wrote:

[quote]trivium wrote:

[quote]NorthWest Power wrote:
Im not a troll haha, Idk, maybe it was a bad day in the gym or whatever, but what happened was that i was gonna start 5/3/1, and the last set on my first day was 315x5, couldnt get it, so made me question if i should continue the program or not, if i did id have to use lower maxes for my reps and since the progress is slow i wanted to know if itd be better just to do something else, Just clarifying,

Im 16 btw,
5’8 180,
405 squat,
365 dead
205 bench

I was even instructed By one of my Coaches to just start back over with SS, build up my base strength, Thoughts?[/quote]

I wouldn’t start over. I don’t think there is a need for that. I am guessing that by your numbers you are a natural squatter?[/quote]

Definitely,I consider myself lucky with these numbers With knowing nothing about lifting for awhile, What would you do if you were me? [/quote]

If I were you, I would pick a system I believe in and stick with it. Be consistent as possible and do your best. I think you are in a fantastic starting spot if, like you said, you haven’t really used any one particular system faithfully.

Read that article if you can find it. I think it may help you understand what I am trying to tell you.

37

personally i wouldn’t start over with SS since i think 5/3/1 is a better program for both intermediate (you) and beginners. Just lower your training max (Jim always says to “start too light”). However thats my opinion and i’m sure others will disagree with me.

38

and that article recommended by trivium is gold. pure gold. I was going to link the article here but i think that would get me in trouble with the site.

39

[quote]zenontheterrible wrote:
and that article recommended by trivium is gold. pure gold. I was going to link the article here but i think that would get me in trouble with the site. [/quote]

It might be one of the best articles ever written for raw lifters. I am glad that someone read the article and got something out of it.

Here is one of the guys who’s training cycle was addressed directly in the article.

40

Here is another excerpt from another article about someone who got pretty strong.

“Pre-meet Training: As the Kaz approached a meet, he would cycle down on reps. First Bill would use an 8 rep scheme, then cycle down to five reps, and finally heavy triples.”

No mention of singles.

Yes, I understand the place of heavy singles in training, and why you should do them if you are going to compete in powerlifting, however I think it is silly to say that if you suck at reps, that you wouldn’t benefit from rep work.

One of the articles mentioned by Mr. Carter in that article was Sheiko. Large portions of Smolov are based on reps.

And, who is going to argue with Bill Starr’s 5x5. It has been around for ages, and until the advent of the internet and what not, that was all I could remember people telling me they used when I would ask them for advice for 8th grade football in 2003-2004. 5x5 was the answer when I was 8 years old and asked my uncle how he trained. He said that and vegetables. (I mean what was the guy supposed to do tell me to eat McDonalds and drink gallons of whole milk?)

Looking back, I wish I would have listened and started back then with a solid program.

I also think that if you use the principles outlined in 5/3/1 for all programs, you can take a crap program and get results. (Start light, progress slowly, set PR’s, train big lifts.)

5/3/1 is fantastic though due to the fact that you will hit rep ranges and possibly break a PR 3x a cycle. What if your 1RM is stuck? Should you deload? Should you keep missing lifts? OR…maybe it would be more productive to set a PR with a big triple instead of freaking out and deloading? Maybe you could grow in that rep range and then come back to singles. Maybe you are a bit burnt out and could use a few weeks of 10’s, 8’s, or 6’s? Who knows?

Even WS4SB works on reps.

In my opinion, which I’ll admit may not be worth shit, you have nothing to lose by adding rep work.