Study: Spike Insulin Post-Workout?

Diet and Nutrition
41

[quote]Sklander wrote:
Haha… this is something that is never going to be 100 per cent testable. Each person is different.

Whatever helps you lift heavier, longer, and correctly is what you should do.

Eat lots of protein and train really hard. Period.[/quote]

There are many different recommendations and the difference between each one is likely negligible. As well, the ideal protocol varies based on training goals, training type and current diet. Nevertheless, these studies are pretty interesting, in particular the fact that most of them use essential amino acid (EAA) supplements and you don’t see many EAA supplements being recommended.

42

[quote]Sklander wrote:
Haha… this is something that is never going to be 100 per cent testable. Each person is different.

Whatever helps you lift heavier, longer, and correctly is what you should do.

Eat lots of protein and train really hard. Period.[/quote]

Sorry for bringing up a pretty old thread, but I just found it today!

Anyway, although total daily macronutrient consumption is a lot more important than specific nutrient timing like you are alluding to, this is still important. I say that mostly because the implication of these articles is that a lot of people are spiking insulin unnecessarily.

What I think is even more interesting is the part showing net protein balance best effected by milk with the fat. Combined with not needing to spike insulin, periworkout nutrition could be changed quite a bit.

I would like to see more studies on it, but it is intriguing to say the least

43

Alan Aragorn is a pimp.

I think I’m going to switch to casein protein PWO and cut out the carbs.

But I am curious: if the body’s nutrient partitioning ability is so enhanced immediately PWO, isn’t that when you want to get in the MAJORITY of your day’s nutrients?

What would happen if a trainee would regularly ingest say 1/4th to 1/3rd of their daily calories in the 1.5 hours PWO window?

44

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
What would happen if a trainee would regularly ingest say 1/4th to 1/3rd of their daily calories in the 1.5 hours PWO window?[/quote]

I believe Cy Wilson advocated taking up to 1/2 of your daily protein allotment within this time frame. I’m not sure of other macronutrients.

I know that I eat about 1200 calories in the hour of/hour after lifting (out of about 4200-4300 a day) and almost half of my carbs then (about 175ish).

45

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
Alan Aragorn is a pimp.

I think I’m going to switch to casein protein PWO and cut out the carbs.

But I am curious: if the body’s nutrient partitioning ability is so enhanced immediately PWO, isn’t that when you want to get in the MAJORITY of your day’s nutrients?

What would happen if a trainee would regularly ingest say 1/4th to 1/3rd of their daily calories in the 1.5 hours PWO window?[/quote]

this is what I’ve been doing, with good results in strength (focus) and hypertrophy.

upper body days i have a half gallon of milk in the hour following, lower body its a whole gallon in about the 2 hours following.

then a big meal usually with carbohydrate after. definitely hit 2k+ calories in this window pretty often.

2 months:
lifts up 30-40lbs each
bw up 15lbs or so, not too much extra fat

46

What an awesome thread - we should have more discussions like this!

I’ve been focusing less on PWO nutrition over the past few months (as in trying to find the perfect C/P ratio), and now I just have 60g protein with 40g various carbs & 15g leucine, split before and after a workout. It’s working a charm.

I also have 1L milk with 40g protein about an hour before I get to the gym, which I belive to be helping me out a lot too.

I read about PreWO nutrition long before this thread, and I believe it was Mr. Barr’s article on here (I could be wrong though, but it was definitely on this site).

47

I use thibs supplement article protocall, not down to the button but close. it gives you pre-during and post and seems to be working well

48

[quote]gi2eg wrote:
PonceDeLeon wrote:
Alan Aragorn is a pimp.

I think I’m going to switch to casein protein PWO and cut out the carbs.

But I am curious: if the body’s nutrient partitioning ability is so enhanced immediately PWO, isn’t that when you want to get in the MAJORITY of your day’s nutrients?

What would happen if a trainee would regularly ingest say 1/4th to 1/3rd of their daily calories in the 1.5 hours PWO window?

this is what I’ve been doing, with good results in strength (focus) and hypertrophy.

upper body days i have a half gallon of milk in the hour following, lower body its a whole gallon in about the 2 hours following.

then a big meal usually with carbohydrate after. definitely hit 2k+ calories in this window pretty often.

2 months:
lifts up 30-40lbs each
bw up 15lbs or so, not too much extra fat[/quote]

See, I was considering 40-60g of casein/whey, mixed with organic raw milk, 1-2 tbsp of 100% cacao powder (unprocessed), and maybe 1-2 tbsp of mono oil (mac, coconut). Maybe some flax (1 tbsp) and salba seeds (1-2 tbsp).

I might have a second shake similar to this that I sip on throughout the day, between meals. Or, this monstrosity:

40-60g protein (whey/casein, so maybe 2 scoops MD and 1 scoop Grow!)
1-2 cloves garlic
1-2 cups spinach, (1 cup kale, optional)
2-3 oz shittake mushrooms
2 bell peppers
4 oz green tea
4 oz white tea
4 oz cuachalalate
1 tsp guar gum
1 tsp celtic sea salt
1 cup blueberries
4 oz acai puree, unsweetened
1 cup broccoli sprouts
1-2 tbsp MUFA oils
2g bromelain

I would split this into two shakes, consume both in a day, and do this about 3 days a week (I am guessing it would be expensive in the long run to do it everyday, and I just don’t have the time)

No matter what I decide on for the during-workout drink, I will start using some unprocessed salt for electrolyte balance.

49

well shit thats a lot of stuff thats good for you.

could be totally gross, but honestly i never had a food i couldnt stomach.

50

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
gi2eg wrote:
PonceDeLeon wrote:
Alan Aragorn is a pimp.

I think I’m going to switch to casein protein PWO and cut out the carbs.

But I am curious: if the body’s nutrient partitioning ability is so enhanced immediately PWO, isn’t that when you want to get in the MAJORITY of your day’s nutrients?

What would happen if a trainee would regularly ingest say 1/4th to 1/3rd of their daily calories in the 1.5 hours PWO window?

this is what I’ve been doing, with good results in strength (focus) and hypertrophy.

upper body days i have a half gallon of milk in the hour following, lower body its a whole gallon in about the 2 hours following.

then a big meal usually with carbohydrate after. definitely hit 2k+ calories in this window pretty often.

2 months:
lifts up 30-40lbs each
bw up 15lbs or so, not too much extra fat

See, I was considering 40-60g of casein/whey, mixed with organic raw milk, 1-2 tbsp of 100% cacao powder (unprocessed), and maybe 1-2 tbsp of mono oil (mac, coconut). Maybe some flax (1 tbsp) and salba seeds (1-2 tbsp).

I might have a second shake similar to this that I sip on throughout the day, between meals. Or, this monstrosity:

40-60g protein (whey/casein, so maybe 2 scoops MD and 1 scoop Grow!)
1-2 cloves garlic
1-2 cups spinach, (1 cup kale, optional)
2-3 oz shittake mushrooms
2 bell peppers
4 oz green tea
4 oz white tea
4 oz cuachalalate
1 tsp guar gum
1 tsp celtic sea salt
1 cup blueberries
4 oz acai puree, unsweetened
1 cup broccoli sprouts
1-2 tbsp MUFA oils
2g bromelain

I would split this into two shakes, consume both in a day, and do this about 3 days a week (I am guessing it would be expensive in the long run to do it everyday, and I just don’t have the time)

No matter what I decide on for the during-workout drink, I will start using some unprocessed salt for electrolyte balance. [/quote]

I’d have to say that that is pure awesome. How’s it taste?

51

Yea I forgot about those posts I made just a few months ago. I was reading the thread ready to talk about insulin but then came across my own posts I forgot I made LOL…

I think it will be interesting to see what the next generation of anti-diabetic drugs (largely peptide hormones based around the secretin and insulin families) will be able to show us in regards to what role insulin truly plays in glucose homeostasis, and if it is really as essential as we have been led to think it is in proper body metabolism and growth.

There will be / are drugs in the pipeline designed as new medications to test in type 1 and 2 diabetic humans that target lessening these person’s needs for pure insulin treatments. I would be interested to see what long-acting GLP-1 receptor agonists can do in a person looking to bulk up.

GLP-1R agonism results in enhanced glucose-stimulated insulin secretion, although I do not know if a healthy individual would experience the same effects that the peptide exendin-4 (Byetta) provides in this respect.

On the contrary, GLP-1R agonism also increases satiety feelings so one would probably not be very hungry on it, but I do not believe any real studies have been done to answer these questions. The peptide and its analogs are still too far in their infancy.

There are certainly many questions to be asked though, and new analogs with extremely powerful pharmacologies will be very helpful in the process.

Resulting studies and data on the success or lack thereof from these compounds and the treatment strategies they represent will help clarify the essentiality of insulin’s role in maintaining a healthy body. It is an exciting time to be studying human biology… even more exciting if one is a capable drug developer. =P

– Now going off the research rant… –

I’ve always found myself to be stronger when drinking my daily shake before workout than after. Protein synthesis aside, I always have the most energy to lift heavy weights when I have had a large dose of protein in the past 1-2 hours.

And that’s what counts most for me; being able to lift as much weight as many times as possible every time I hit the gym.

Like AlteredState I am lifting to try and get a little stronger, although I have sort of peaked out at a comfortable level in my 20s now, but also maintain being very cut at the same time, and staying at a relatively constant weight (175-180) throughout the year.

I have found there is a very tiny window for me to be able to eat enough to maintain the extra muscle on my body (although I am no competitor that’s for sure), provide it the chance to keep growing assuming I lift hard enough, but still prevent excess or unwanted weight gains.

52

[quote]Sklander wrote:

I’d have to say that that is pure awesome. How’s it taste?[/quote]

I’ve actually only had about half of the ingredients at any given time. It’s been ok for me, a bit “earthy” but not in a bad way. Not overpowering.

You could conceivably alter the taste as you wish by adding in packets of Crystal Light.

It’s a pain in the ass to get all the stuff prepared so the actual making of the shake takes as little time as possible (I am always in a rush and have no time between classes),

but it started out with a few ingredients and I’ve updated the list as I’ve read more articles and discovered other stuff on my own, such as the cuachalalate which is a tea made from a plant in Mexico. It is highly anti-inflammatory, anti-ulcerative, and tons of other good stuff.

I’d put maybe some fresh lemon juice in the green/white teas, as I know Vitamin C boosts the anti-oxidant content or bioavailability.

Yeah, I will definitely report back when I actually go shop for the specific super list of stuff. Fuck vitamins. I bet this could appear on Pub Med :slight_smile:

Maybe lemon flavored fish oil? Stay tuned.

53

I just tried lemon flavored fish oil last night in a smoothie and it is a rich taste for sure. Not in a bad way, but it definitely tastes like citrus pine sol cleaner - not in a bad way, though!

54

Thought I’d bring this thread up again after reading one of Staley’s interviews with our own Dave Barr. Turns out Barr says:

CS: Carbs- good or evil?

DB: For most people they’re patently evil. … And I can’t comment on this topic without bringing up the archaic notion that we need to load carbs after training. People have been doing this for more than a decade, but is it helping our physiques and performance? Come on.

I’d like to add the caveat that carbs are great for people with very high training volumes, and skinny people looking to improve muscle mass and strength, but this is a small subset compared to the rest.

Just fuel for the fire here.

55

For a while now, I’ve thought that carbs post-workout are not so necessary, particularly when dieting. Pre-workout carbs go where they’re supposed to even after the workout lowers your insulin levels.

When trying to gain muscle, using a lot of carbs post-workout can be part of your trying to get in as many calories as possible when your metabolism is at its highest.

But regardless of the above, for some reason I feel a lot less sore after a workout if I have a moderate amount of high-GI carbs than if I have not so much carbs but am still using BCAAs or a protein hydrolystate with an isolate protein. Does anyone know a scientific reason for that?

56

Thank you OP and the one who bumped this. This is the kind of evidence I needed.

Preworkout P+C drink made me hypoglycemic, so by the time I got back home from the gym, I was ragious. Even whey protein only preworkout did this to some degree. Now I’m doing P only postworkout.

I might try switching to whole milk postworkout. The less processed the food the better, and sadly, protein powders are Frankenfood. And all that oxidized cholesterol too.

57

This thread rules. With regards to the studies that Rusty Barbell posted: the sample size is pretty small in those studies (n=8, n=10 respectively) so it might be difficult to generalize that for the whole population, even though the p=.01 and p=.05. Great info though! very thought provoking.

I always did better with training on slightly empty stomach at ~6am with a cup of black coffee and maybe some HOT-ROX depending on what i’m doing. Whey alone or whey+carbs or fats would just slow me down. I would then have some Surge post workout or the Thib low carb drink and a solid meal of protein and fat 1 hr later. If you’re cutting, obviously get at least 1g/lb of protein, EFAs and fiber, after that if you want some carbs it’s probably not going to make a HUGE difference if your calories are low enough. Insulin will be low enough at other times to allow for the release of stored fat.

In no way am I advocating a specific type of eating. But I’m gonna go with calories being most important for fat loss followed by macro breakdown. That being said, personally my recovery is better when i eat almost no carbs and no protein powder (except pwo), i’m talking <20g per day. I also noticed that I can eat a few hundred more calories and still lose fat while on a ketogenic diet.

So, now for pwo when cutting I have the Thib low pwo drink and that does it for me. I follow that up with whatever is called for in my diet, which is usually 20-40g protein and 2-3 tbsp of olive or coconut oil. Keep this thread going guys! Great discussion going on here.

58

What’s the Thib low carb pwo drink like?

59

I think more specific studies need to be done on this. If I were to use the caveman template to simplify this:

Trog very hungry (blood sugar low) Trog chase gazelle across plains (workout). Trog catches food and eats. (post workout meal)
Trog feels better. (good recovery)

Of course Trog rarely lived past his 20’s and he would lose badly in a bodybuilding contest. But that’s another thread…

60

It always needs to be kept in mind that a study’s failure to find a thing or benefit under the circumstances they employed and using the measurement techniques that they did, does NOT mean that the thing or benefit does not exist.

For example, does their study show that over time, the degree to which satellite cells fuse to existing mature muscle cells is the same regardless of whether the insulin spike is large or small?

No it does not.

Does it show that there are no discernible or no important differences in bodybuilding results over time?

No it does not.

Sometimes authors of scientific papers themselves have the blinkers on and take their efforts to find some specified things and not finding them under their conditions (but not even looking for everything that should be of interest) to be some end-all, be-all conclusion when it should not be. Other times the authors know full well that their study shows only exactly what they said it did, but some readers take it to have more meaning than it does and make decisions based on it that ought not be made.