Strikeforce HW Grand Prix: If This Happens

Training
61

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Why is anyone’s guess.
[/quote]

I thought he (and his ‘team’) have been pretty clear about why: control.

In the UFC Dana White tells you when, where and who to fight. You can fight no one else. The UFC owns the rights to name, your voice and your likeness (think posters, video-games, exe.).

If Fedor was raking in the cash on his own (I have no idea), I can see why he wouldn’t want to give up that kind of control and freedom at this point in his career.

It’s like Overeem too. Same deal, if he went to UFC, he couldn’t do K1, or non-UFC MMA fights overseas.

I just hope that at some point the talent pool outside the UFC gets big enough that Dana White is forced to back off that kind of management style, after all the UFC is supposed to be a promotion, not an employer.

62

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:
The only time I felt Fedor ducked anything was his last negotiations with the UFC.

The level wasn’t apparently high (no one knew for sure what Cain/Carwin/JDS would turn out to be), but it was a watering ground for most recognized HWs, as opposed to the clutter outside the org. When the aforementioned fighters did gain some traction in the div, that was when people really started throwing ducking accusations after the fact.

[/quote]

Yeah, that bothered me too. If you want to be considered the best then you really have to beat the best and the best HW’s are in the UFC. If you beat the top 3 or 4 guys in the UFC you are the best in the world. I heard many rumors about the money that he turned down from the UFC. There are many reasons to turn down a business deal, but if you want your legacy to be that you beat the best of your time you don’t do it by avoiding the UFC.

One more point on Fedor: I think he could still be highly competitive by cutting to 205. And judging by the way he looks he could do it fairly easily.
[/quote]

This is stupid, at the time the UFC had Sylvia, Arlovski, Randy and Werdum as people Fedor had yet to beat. The resurrection of Mir, and the new crop of top heavies is a recent development. And lets face it HW is the weakest division there is across the board in mma. [/quote]

Oh really? Mir beat Lesnar on February 2, 2008. The UFC was trying very hard to get Fedor to enter their organization through the first half of 2009, and even past the second Mir/Lesnar fight.

Get your facts straight. Fedor had his chance to fight the best in the world and declined. Why is anyone’s guess.
[/quote]
derp think back to the pride buyout tard

63

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Why is anyone’s guess.
[/quote]

I thought he (and his ‘team’) have been pretty clear about why: control.

In the UFC Dana White tells you when, where and who to fight. You can fight no one else. The UFC owns the rights to name, your voice and your likeness (think posters, video-games, exe.).

If Fedor was raking in the cash on his own (I have no idea), I can see why he wouldn’t want to give up that kind of control and freedom at this point in his career.

It’s like Overeem too. Same deal, if he went to UFC, he couldn’t do K1, or non-UFC MMA fights overseas.

I just hope that at some point the talent pool outside the UFC gets big enough that Dana White is forced to back off that kind of management style, after all the UFC is supposed to be a promotion, not an employer.[/quote]

And I can understand any fighter not wanting that kind of control exerted over them. especially a fighter as skilled and famous as Fedor. But, still when you say no to that you are also saying no to fighting the best in the world. It’s a tradeoff for certain. You can be sure that any offer Dana White made is now off the table given Fedor’s last two fights. But that’s the way the ball bounces

64

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:
The only time I felt Fedor ducked anything was his last negotiations with the UFC.

The level wasn’t apparently high (no one knew for sure what Cain/Carwin/JDS would turn out to be), but it was a watering ground for most recognized HWs, as opposed to the clutter outside the org. When the aforementioned fighters did gain some traction in the div, that was when people really started throwing ducking accusations after the fact.

[/quote]

Yeah, that bothered me too. If you want to be considered the best then you really have to beat the best and the best HW’s are in the UFC. If you beat the top 3 or 4 guys in the UFC you are the best in the world. I heard many rumors about the money that he turned down from the UFC. There are many reasons to turn down a business deal, but if you want your legacy to be that you beat the best of your time you don’t do it by avoiding the UFC.

One more point on Fedor: I think he could still be highly competitive by cutting to 205. And judging by the way he looks he could do it fairly easily.
[/quote]

This is stupid, at the time the UFC had Sylvia, Arlovski, Randy and Werdum as people Fedor had yet to beat. The resurrection of Mir, and the new crop of top heavies is a recent development. And lets face it HW is the weakest division there is across the board in mma. [/quote]

Oh really? Mir beat Lesnar on February 2, 2008. The UFC was trying very hard to get Fedor to enter their organization through the first half of 2009, and even past the second Mir/Lesnar fight.

Get your facts straight. Fedor had his chance to fight the best in the world and declined. Why is anyone’s guess.
[/quote]
derp think back to the pride buyout tard[/quote]

Are you now denying that Dana was trying to get Fedor to come aboard in mid 2009? And here I thought it was just the political threads where you made no sense. You do this every where :slight_smile:

65

[quote]Spartiates wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Why is anyone’s guess.
[/quote]

I thought he (and his ‘team’) have been pretty clear about why: control.

In the UFC Dana White tells you when, where and who to fight. You can fight no one else. The UFC owns the rights to name, your voice and your likeness (think posters, video-games, exe.).

If Fedor was raking in the cash on his own (I have no idea), I can see why he wouldn’t want to give up that kind of control and freedom at this point in his career.

It’s like Overeem too. Same deal, if he went to UFC, he couldn’t do K1, or non-UFC MMA fights overseas.

I just hope that at some point the talent pool outside the UFC gets big enough that Dana White is forced to back off that kind of management style, after all the UFC is supposed to be a promotion, not an employer.[/quote]

I have a question on the endorsement/marketing angle that perhaps some of the non continental U.S. board members could help me with. I know that the UFC/Zuffa/White require complete ownership of the likeness in perpetuity. I know this is done in pro-wrestling, although those are “characters” a bit more. What do they bring to the table for a non-US, non English speaking fighter as far as endorsements? It is one thing for a US born and based fighter to run all their endorsements through Zuffa, I presume the US is the biggest market for the UFC and hence the biggest individual market for endorsements. Are UFC fighters featured prominently in ads in the E.U., former com-bloc, Japan, ect. ? I am asking because I don’t know. I suspect that in Fedor’s case he would be giving up a ton of money from Russia, the E.U., and Japan.

66

MMA is still a baby sport in this region. Just-post-TUF level of recognisability. Wish I could help.

67

[quote]rundymc wrote:
MMA is still a baby sport in this region. Just-post-TUF level of recognisability. Wish I could help.[/quote]

No it is not. MMA is pretty big in France, Germany, Cech Republic, Rumania, Poland, Russia etc.
They may not buy the UFC PPVs but their fighters like Fedor can make huge money with marketing there. I bet they can make more money than with fighting…

68

woah what? This region doesn’t mean everywhere except the States, LOL.
Talking about SE Asia. It’s only started picking up traction here. Singapore just got it’s first MMA promo last year and there are BJJ tourneys popping up in the Phillipines, Thailand, HK etc.
Regardless, sorry, OT.

69

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:
The only time I felt Fedor ducked anything was his last negotiations with the UFC.

The level wasn’t apparently high (no one knew for sure what Cain/Carwin/JDS would turn out to be), but it was a watering ground for most recognized HWs, as opposed to the clutter outside the org. When the aforementioned fighters did gain some traction in the div, that was when people really started throwing ducking accusations after the fact.

[/quote]

Yeah, that bothered me too. If you want to be considered the best then you really have to beat the best and the best HW’s are in the UFC. If you beat the top 3 or 4 guys in the UFC you are the best in the world. I heard many rumors about the money that he turned down from the UFC. There are many reasons to turn down a business deal, but if you want your legacy to be that you beat the best of your time you don’t do it by avoiding the UFC.

One more point on Fedor: I think he could still be highly competitive by cutting to 205. And judging by the way he looks he could do it fairly easily.
[/quote]

This is stupid, at the time the UFC had Sylvia, Arlovski, Randy and Werdum as people Fedor had yet to beat. The resurrection of Mir, and the new crop of top heavies is a recent development. And lets face it HW is the weakest division there is across the board in mma. [/quote]

Oh really? Mir beat Lesnar on February 2, 2008. The UFC was trying very hard to get Fedor to enter their organization through the first half of 2009, and even past the second Mir/Lesnar fight.

Get your facts straight. Fedor had his chance to fight the best in the world and declined. Why is anyone’s guess.
[/quote]
derp think back to the pride buyout tard[/quote]

Are you now denying that Dana was trying to get Fedor to come aboard in mid 2009? And here I thought it was just the political threads where you made no sense. You do this every where :slight_smile:
[/quote]

You are speaking more recently than I am. After pride ended the UFC tried to sign Fedor, but Dana blew it by not allowing Fedor to do Sambo tournaments. This is the span where Fedor fought Hong Man Choi, and Matt Linland. But regardless my point is still that the UFC HW division did not begin prominence until 2010. And I also don’t remember posting anything on the politics forum except for last year with the whole immigration debacle in Arizona. Oh and there was also that time I posted questioning how people rationalize shit with their religion. Swinger Christians and all kinds of hilariousness in that thread.

70

^ that’s exactly the time frame we were discussing. Very few people would hold up the post-pride negotiations as an example of Fedor ducking. The most recent negotiations are another story.

Also, the Sambo thing is definitely bullshit. Combat Sambo, as opposed to Sport Sambo, is of an extremely low level and uncompetitive, so I’ve heard. For instance, the guy that beat Fedor recently, Ivanov, was a C-level fighter in MMA at best.

The reasons for the fallout have always been inflexible contract terms (you can’t fight for SF, or DREAM) and M1’s copromotion attempts.

71

[quote]dnbjoe wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:
MMA is still a baby sport in this region. Just-post-TUF level of recognisability. Wish I could help.[/quote]

No it is not. MMA is pretty big in France, Germany, Cech Republic, Rumania, Poland, Russia etc.
They may not buy the UFC PPVs but their fighters like Fedor can make huge money with marketing there. I bet they can make more money than with fighting… [/quote]

Thank you both. Would I be correct in thinking that for european fighters Japan and Europe offer better merchandizing and endorsement opportunities than UFC? Have either of you seen any UFC fighters in ads?

72

[quote]sardines12 wrote:
… the UFC HW division did not begin prominence until 2010. [/quote]

Nonsense, Mir, Lesnar, Carwin, Velasquez and company were all at or near the top a few years before 2010. And Dana White has been trying to bring Fedor to the UFC for several years. It would have been a great move had it worked. Once again Fedor had his reasons for not moving to the UFC. We perhaps know part of the reason why he didn’t make the move. But unless or until he he reveals all one day we will never really know.

73

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:
… the UFC HW division did not begin prominence until 2010. [/quote]

Nonsense, Mir, Lesnar, Carwin, Velasquez and company were all at or near the top a few years before 2010. And Dana White has been trying to bring Fedor to the UFC for several years. It would have been a great move had it worked. Once again Fedor had his reasons for not moving to the UFC. We perhaps know part of the reason why he didn’t make the move. But unless or until he he reveals all one day we will never really know.[/quote]

no 2010 in 2008 nog and randy were beat and that proved what exactly, still a weak division in 08.

74

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]dnbjoe wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:
MMA is still a baby sport in this region. Just-post-TUF level of recognisability. Wish I could help.[/quote]

No it is not. MMA is pretty big in France, Germany, Cech Republic, Rumania, Poland, Russia etc.
They may not buy the UFC PPVs but their fighters like Fedor can make huge money with marketing there. I bet they can make more money than with fighting… [/quote]

Thank you both. Would I be correct in thinking that for european fighters Japan and Europe offer better merchandizing and endorsement opportunities than UFC? Have either of you seen any UFC fighters in ads?[/quote]

I’ve seen GSP and a couple other fighters on the cover of fitness rags here. TUF used to be shown on one of the ‘action’ channels over here (AXN), and ever since the UFC game came out, posters for it have been prominent in malls. The fighters are nowhere near as recognisable as soccer stars, Mayweather/Pacman, but I’d say about the same level as NBA players. The average guy knows what MMA is (cage fighting, extreme kickboxing), has heard of the UFC in some capacity, but can’t name any fighters, champs, and has little understanding of the rules.
GSP and Fedor are the two names that come up the most with the 20-40 crowd. Penn, Lyoto, Page etc. are hardly known round here (except among followers of the sport of course). People know Page as the guy from A-team for instance.

So, at least in this region, there aren’t too many endorsement opportunities, since the sport is a few years behind the US and Europe. Japan, I believe, is a different story.

75

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
Fedor is still Fedor. It is just that the heavyweight devision is no longer the same as it used to be. He is, by today’s standards not a true heavyweight. He get’s into the ring at 235lbs with 35lbs of fat on him and faces guys who are now 265lbs with abs. Don’t let your woman tell you different, SIZE MATTERS.

There have been plenty of big guys he has faced that simply did not have the skills so he could overpower them with his excellent skill set but the heavyweights of today all have decent to great skills and in that case the size difference is going to be important.

Doesn’t mean he would lose to every guy out there but he simply isn’t strong enough to get a big guy like Silva, Lesnar or Cain of him (we can debate if the latter two can get him down but if Silva could I am pretty sure that Lesnar and Cain could as well…if they can avoid getting their head knocked off, of course).

He would dominate the light heavyweight devision, I think, and should just drop the fat and compete at 205lbs.
I have always wondered why, with all that training, he is still fat, as compared to others.
His handlers have not done him any favors by shielding him from everybody.[/quote]

Cain Velasquez is 240 pounds, JDS is Fedor size.[/quote]
Wow a troll with 800+ posts, don’t see that often.

76

After the shit dana white pulled with fedors sponsors, I wouldn’t blame him if he turned down the ufc, no matter what they offered.

77

Fedor is my favorite fighter also. Needless to say, watching what happened Saturday was tough to stomach. His timing looked off in the first round and he didn’t seem to be landing punches flush, like he normally does. He was winging wild hooks and haymakers. He has always displayed this sort of reckless type of fighting, but he almost always had the physical advantage of speed, agility and power over his opponents. That advantage seems to be gone now, or atleast not what it used to be. I think he is still the same fighter mentally as he’s always been, but his physical skills are eroding.

Part of me wants him to retire. If he doesn’t have it in his heart to fight anymore, he would just be tainting his legacy. I don’t think he can beat as many top-tier fighters anymore, and I don’t want to see him fighting no-name guys just to fight. Another part of me says if it’s still in his heart to fight, he should if he would update his training camp. Maybe bring in some different guys , as he has been training with the same group for a long time. I definitely think he does need to tighten up his striking a bit, or atleast his discipline (his training videos and books show him using fairly sound technique, however when he gets in the cage he becomes wild). If he still has that hunger to fight, he could still compete at a fairly high level. I guess it all depends on his heart at this point.

As far as the rest of the tourney, I think Overeem would have to be the betting favorite. If Werdum can somehow get the fight to the ground though, it’s anybody’s fight. Werdum is probably also feeling confident after already beating Overeem once (although long ago) and a legend in Fedor. Barnett is also a darkhorse, but he hasn’t fought many top level guys recently. Guess we will see how it plays out.

78

[quote]Dre Cappa wrote:
Fedor is my favorite fighter also. Needless to say, watching what happened Saturday was tough to stomach. His timing looked off in the first round and he didn’t seem to be landing punches flush, like he normally does. He was winging wild hooks and haymakers. He has always displayed this sort of reckless type of fighting, but he almost always had the physical advantage of speed, agility and power over his opponents. That advantage seems to be gone now, or atleast not what it used to be. I think he is still the same fighter mentally as he’s always been, but his physical skills are eroding.

Part of me wants him to retire. If he doesn’t have it in his heart to fight anymore, he would just be tainting his legacy. I don’t think he can beat as many top-tier fighters anymore, and I don’t want to see him fighting no-name guys just to fight. Another part of me says if it’s still in his heart to fight, he should if he would update his training camp. Maybe bring in some different guys , as he has been training with the same group for a long time. I definitely think he does need to tighten up his striking a bit, or atleast his discipline (his training videos and books show him using fairly sound technique, however when he gets in the cage he becomes wild). If he still has that hunger to fight, he could still compete at a fairly high level. I guess it all depends on his heart at this point.

As far as the rest of the tourney, I think Overeem would have to be the betting favorite. If Werdum can somehow get the fight to the ground though, it’s anybody’s fight. Werdum is probably also feeling confident after already beating Overeem once (although long ago) and a legend in Fedor. Barnett is also a darkhorse, but he hasn’t fought many top level guys recently. Guess we will see how it plays out. [/quote]

I agree with you about Fedor, and the rest really. I am calling no way Werdum wins the tourney, he cannot put together 3 in a row against top flight competition in MMA. On any given night he is a threat, but he is strongly in the win 2 drop 1 pattern in his career. He has won 3 straight. I like Barnett, his standup looke good against Mighty Mo, but it has been a while since he fought at the top. I could also see him electing to stand with Overeem and getting caught.

Link to Mighty Mo fight. If anyone has not seen it previously, watch to the end of the video.

79

Yeah Barnett is nasty on the ground, and he is competent enough standing. He has good enough striking to set up take downs. Werdum vs Barnett in the finals would be a real good grappling match. Overeem vs Bigfoot could be interesting in the semis. I think Overeem would outclass him standing though. I’d like to see Overeem vs. barnett. Overeem definitely wouldn’t be catching Barnett with standing guillotines or stuff like that.

You bring up an interesting point about Werdum. You said beat top flight guys in MMA. I saw someone on Sherdog disparaging Fedor’s Combat Sambo accomplishments because the guys he beats in that sport are nothing more than “C-Level” MMA guys. Yet many top BJJ guys have struggled in MMA. Guys like Andre Galvao for example. His MMA credentials don’t match his BJJ ones. Not saying he is a bad fighter, just not at the level his world-class BJJ skills are. I think that is even more a testament to Fedor that he competed and dominated at Combat Sambo while dominating in MMA as well.

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]Dre Cappa wrote:
Fedor is my favorite fighter also. Needless to say, watching what happened Saturday was tough to stomach. His timing looked off in the first round and he didn’t seem to be landing punches flush, like he normally does. He was winging wild hooks and haymakers. He has always displayed this sort of reckless type of fighting, but he almost always had the physical advantage of speed, agility and power over his opponents. That advantage seems to be gone now, or atleast not what it used to be. I think he is still the same fighter mentally as he’s always been, but his physical skills are eroding.

Part of me wants him to retire. If he doesn’t have it in his heart to fight anymore, he would just be tainting his legacy. I don’t think he can beat as many top-tier fighters anymore, and I don’t want to see him fighting no-name guys just to fight. Another part of me says if it’s still in his heart to fight, he should if he would update his training camp. Maybe bring in some different guys , as he has been training with the same group for a long time. I definitely think he does need to tighten up his striking a bit, or atleast his discipline (his training videos and books show him using fairly sound technique, however when he gets in the cage he becomes wild). If he still has that hunger to fight, he could still compete at a fairly high level. I guess it all depends on his heart at this point.

As far as the rest of the tourney, I think Overeem would have to be the betting favorite. If Werdum can somehow get the fight to the ground though, it’s anybody’s fight. Werdum is probably also feeling confident after already beating Overeem once (although long ago) and a legend in Fedor. Barnett is also a darkhorse, but he hasn’t fought many top level guys recently. Guess we will see how it plays out. [/quote]

I agree with you about Fedor, and the rest really. I am calling no way Werdum wins the tourney, he cannot put together 3 in a row against top flight competition in MMA. On any given night he is a threat, but he is strongly in the win 2 drop 1 pattern in his career. He has won 3 straight. I like Barnett, his standup looke good against Mighty Mo, but it has been a while since he fought at the top. I could also see him electing to stand with Overeem and getting caught.

Link to Mighty Mo fight. If anyone has not seen it previously, watch to the end of the video.

80

^I think the criticisms directed at the level of Combat Sambo are warranted. The prominent theory is that Fedor competes in it to raise it’s profile.
Personally I don’t think the Galvao comparison is poignant. BJJ, afterall doesn’t have strikes, and is very different from MMA. Combat Sambo on the other hand, more closely resembles it, though yes, the rules seem very different in both cases.