I know that a lot of responses are likely going to be ‘Stick to the programme as written’, but …
I just wondered what the motivation for using a strict press over a push press was? While the Squat, Deadlift and Bench are all competition lifts, the Press isn’t. A push press will allow you to lift more weight, with the main strength benefits coming at the top of the lift.
So, is there a really good reason to use the strict press over a push press? My question is motivated by feeling as though I am stalling on the strict press due to an inability to move the bar from the rack position.
Well, eventually you’ll stall on push press as the weight increases. This is only a band aid. I’ve been down this road, trust me. I’d drop the TM a bit and keep plugging away. Tell your ego to bugger off. The goal here is to get stronger over time. The weights will come.
On the argument of a push press letting you lift more, you could apply that same logic to the other lifts and say that quarter squats would be better than full squats, which they evidently are not.
The point of a strict press, IMHO, is to develop power from the rack position and over the full range of motion, which you won’t get in the push press.
[quote]daniel4738 wrote:
I know that a lot of responses are likely going to be ‘Stick to the programme as written’, but …
I just wondered what the motivation for using a strict press over a push press was? While the Squat, Deadlift and Bench are all competition lifts, the Press isn’t. A push press will allow you to lift more weight, with the main strength benefits coming at the top of the lift.
So, is there a really good reason to use the strict press over a push press? My question is motivated by feeling as though I am stalling on the strict press due to an inability to move the bar from the rack position.
Thanks.[/quote]
Strength is the reason. And it WAS a competition lift for a long time.
Push press is a great lift, but I’d use it as secondary on bench day. Look at moves that nobody does heavy at commercial gyms: squat, deadlift, press, cleans. There’s a reason. You have to be strong. Those are your best moves.
From a powerlifting perspective - I gear everything towards my bench. For me there is a definite connection between my military press and bench. When the military improves my bench isn’t far behind. That is why I do them. Otherwise I would not do them…I am not enamored with the lift like others except for what it does for my bench. Don’t get me wrong - whatever floats your boat. But I do them as my 4th day on 5-3-1 for my bench.
Having said that - for me the question regarding push presses or anything I run on that 4th day (I have used close grips instead of militaries at times) is “does it help my bench?” It doesn’t seem to me that a push press would - even arguing that it may help the lockout via tricep strength is flimsy because - at least when I do them - momentum drives the weight through the lock-out - and I won’t have that option from the bench position - not like that - no matter how fast I get using bands or whatever else. So why do them? I am not asking this rhetorically - I would like to know from someone who has experience with them if they benefit the bench or anything else for that matter other than the push press itself?
Push press seem to build a lot more size to my shoulders, and I benched my heaviest after setting consistent PRs in the push press. Take it with a grain of salt, as was also setting high numbers in the power snatch and high pull, so my push press started out with some powerful hip drive, but like I said, it does way more for my shoulders than military press. On the other hand, I feel that military press is safer. I guess I’m a little bias towards push press because of the huge progress I was making in all of my main lifts at the time.
I guess I would try one for a while, and then try the other. Track your progress and see what works best.
[quote]Rave2.0 wrote:
From a powerlifting perspective - I gear everything towards my bench. For me there is a definite connection between my military press and bench. When the military improves my bench isn’t far behind. That is why I do them. Otherwise I would not do them…I am not enamored with the lift like others except for what it does for my bench. Don’t get me wrong - whatever floats your boat. But I do them as my 4th day on 5-3-1 for my bench.
Having said that - for me the question regarding push presses or anything I run on that 4th day (I have used close grips instead of militaries at times) is “does it help my bench?” It doesn’t seem to me that a push press would - even arguing that it may help the lockout via tricep strength is flimsy because - at least when I do them - momentum drives the weight through the lock-out - and I won’t have that option from the bench position - not like that - no matter how fast I get using bands or whatever else. So why do them? I am not asking this rhetorically - I would like to know from someone who has experience with them if they benefit the bench or anything else for that matter other than the push press itself?[/quote]
In my experience, anything overhead will translate to a bigger bench press as long as you are progressing and getting stronger overhead. Keep in mind though that I am not a PLer and my max BP is only 325.
[quote]Rave2.0 wrote:
is “does it help my bench?” It doesn’t seem to me that a push press would - even arguing that it may help the lockout via tricep strength is flimsy because - at least when I do them - momentum drives the weight through the lock-out - and I won’t have that option from the bench position - not like that - no matter how fast I get using bands or whatever else. So why do them??[/quote]
Do you use leg drive when benching?
They both have their applications, I wouldn’t do jerks as that is more about pushing the weight up with legs and getting under the bar. This program has Press as it’s movement but Push Press is a great exercise IMO.
Thanks for all the responses. The answer I am picking up on is that the strict press develops the ability to lift from the rack/stationary position, which in turn will provide the most benefit.
Maybe I will add a heavy push press as an assistance lift on the next cycle. I once saw someone pressing 100kg (225#) for reps and was immediately impressed (and I felt a little bit feminine) - I love the idea of being able to shift an extremely heavy weight overhead.
Not an any way like you do with a push press. Your legs are tight, but not moving. If you are actually moving your legs, then your ass is off the bench and you have bad form on the bench.
@tsantos -
No I bench on a bosu ball with my feet up in the air balancing a half-drank Budweiser on my nose.
Of course I use leg drive and quite a bit I might add. What Ecchastang said is 100% correct. My feet NEVER move when I bench except into the floor. On a push press your feet, knees, all of it “moves.” Furthermore, the leg action at the beginning of the push press overpowers the starting strength one builds without the english - for instance in the regular military press.
Regarding the bench press as I was taught it, you should be getting everything seriously tight from the lats through the abs and especially down through the glutes and legs. It is very uncomfortable but that is how you/I access strength from the entire body. You lose tightness you leak strength. Movement in general takes from that reserve - hence you inevitably leak potential strength in the push press - strength you will need in the bench press because your feet and ass must TOUCH something. The problem as I see it, however, is the english compensates and generates much more speed/momentum which, if you are a savvy push-presser you will carry that into the lockout.
[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
I’d drop the TM a bit and keep plugging away. Tell your ego to bugger off. The goal here is to get stronger over time. The weights will come.[/quote]
Spot on, this program is about progress over a long period of time…it’s not 12 weeks to a new you.
[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
I’d drop the TM a bit and keep plugging away. Tell your ego to bugger off. The goal here is to get stronger over time. The weights will come.[/quote]
Spot on, this program is about progress over a long period of time…it’s not 12 weeks to a new you.[/quote]
Could this be the same UtahLama from about 6 years ago or so?
Well, no need to get defensive. I do the Press because I want to get better at the Press and I would say if you want to get better at the Push Press 5/3/1 will work for you.
I simply think this claim of better transfer to the bench is dubious, so I want more than opinions based upon exaggerating shitty form or that the Push Press will lead to shitty form in the Bench Press. I even think that the claim that you will progress faster or further in your Bench Press if you choose the Press over the Push Press is dubious.
The Push Press is not a bastardised Push Jerk where the limbs are just there to guide the weight after a powerful leg drive and to hold it in the finishing position (minus the step of dropping under the bar). Your upper body muscles should be doing the majority of the work. Yes if you do it wrong, then it’s not going to be a very good exercise but neither are quarter squats.
Leg drive in the bench needs you to push against the floor and transfer energy from the floor to the bar. Not sure what lifting your arse off the bench has to do with anything.
These are straw men and I’d like to get to the bottom of what are we saying exactly?
Press strengthens the muscles involved in the Bench more than the Push Press?
Press involves more of the muscles which are involved in the Bench?
You will become more efficient in the Bench if you Press rather than if you Push Press?
Something else?
At some point Jim will come in and say do whatever you want, we can all agree with him and then can stop measuring our dicks.
These are straw men and I’d like to get to the bottom of what are we saying exactly?
Press strengthens the muscles involved in the Bench more than the Push Press?
Press involves more of the muscles which are involved in the Bench?
You will become more efficient in the Bench if you Press rather than if you Push Press?
Something else?
[/quote]
Given that in both the bench and strict press, the body is still, that would imply that the press is more similar than the push press.
As to which involves more muscle in relation to the bench, the push press gets the innitial momentum from moving the weight up with the legs, the bench does not. Sure the legs are tight, and driving into the floor, in the same way that in strict press the legs are tight, motionless and driving into the floor.
On the flip side, if you like push press, do it, it is much better than doing nothing. I actually have converted to push press when the strict approaches failure during sets.
If I add 10 to my strict press it adds 5 to my bench. That’s a good reason. I have been down the road doing tons of push press it gets me better at a push press but doesn’t do anything to increase my bench.
I’ve messed around with doing push presses after my presses before. It definitely helped get me out of a little rut on my strict press. It didn’t do anything to help my bench though. It’s an awesome exercise…just can’t see it having a lot of transfer to a bench.