Stem Cells, Again

Ok, so the House passed a bill that lifts some restrictions on embryonic stem cell research.

Still fairly restrictive though, which is why I don’t really understand the resistance. The embryos can only be left over from in vitro fertilization, they’re going to be destroyed as medical waste. Or simply flushed down the drain.

They can not be bought or sold, only donated by the couples undergoing fertility treatment.

But the fanatics are still screaming about murder and the destruction of life. Bush has vowed to veto it, and the religious right is vowing revenge on the Republican reps who supported it.

Why? These are cells in a petri dish that are going to be destroyed. They are not under any circumstance going to ever become a living (let alone human) being. (Unless you have a sci-fi imagination and want to write a movie about a bunch of them sticking to the side of a sewer pipe and living off effluvient, growing into some sort of massive Godzilla-type humanoid monster that destroys cities).

I really don’t understand the opposition to this.

Many religions believe life begins at conception.

To harvest the stem cells the embryo (life) is destroyed.

The choice is simple, change religious belief or oppose the destruction of embryos.

I think most people undestand we should not breed clones in order to harvest organs. That is not very farfetched given the rapid technological advancement.

The question is where to draw the line. We know where the Catholic Church and Bush stand.

I have a brother who is a C-6 quad and would realy like to walk again. I would like that too. There is a lot of hope that stem cell treatments would help spinal cord injuries. If that is true, I wish they could come to a conclusion either way. It’s time for the politicians to shit or get off of the pot on this one.

This could be the greatest scientific advance of the last 20 years.

What a shame Bush will veto it to keep the Bible-belt happy. Retards.

[quote]deanosumo wrote:
This could be the greatest scientific advance of the last 20 years.

What a shame Bush will veto it to keep the Bible-belt happy. Retards.[/quote]

Theocons believe the best use for these embryos is to flush them down the toilet.
It has to be one of the most stupidest fake points of view ever. All to shill to a tiny group of uninformed constitution haters. INCREDIBLE!

[quote]mark57 wrote:
I really don’t understand the opposition to this.[/quote]

I think this has to do with an “erosion of values” principle. Of course there’s nothing morally wrong with stem cell research, but the chicken littles link stem cell research with abortion, and in their minds this is just one step before women start getting abortions on purpose just to fuel some mad scientist’s scheme of a clone army to take over the world and make everybody turn socially liberal.

Although, I have to admit that the Godzilla thing was pretty cool too. Maybe I’ll do that instead. Thanks for the idea.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
mark57 wrote:

Although, I have to admit that the Godzilla thing was pretty cool too. Maybe I’ll do that instead. Thanks for the idea.

[/quote]

Dammit…I was snoozing so nicely in my deep ocean trench and you guys woke me up. Look, I am a mutated Godzillasaurus from a pacific island that was used for atomic bomb testing. I am NOT some petri dish biological specimen gone awry. Now, cut it out with the insults so I can get my beauty sleep.

A few points:

  • Bush only stops the ‘Federal’ funding of ‘embryonic’ stem cell research, he does not make it illegal. The states and individual private labs are free to study , destroy, eat, etc. embryos if they want to.

  • The Federal government funds adult and umbilical cord stem cell research. It’s not affected by Bush’s restrictions.

  • The concept that it’s only embryonic stem cell research that is keeping paralyzed people from walking is complete BS. There is no scientific proof that there is a cure right around the corner that only embryonic stem cell research can provide.

  • If you think embryo’s are not life you should meet the many ‘snowflake babies’ out there who in the earliest part of their lives were cryogenically preserved human embryo’s leftover in fertility labs that some couples/women adopted and impregnated into their wombs and brought to birth.

Now who is being so radical? Guess it wasn’t the retards who were so uninformed afterall.

[quote]gojira wrote:
Dammit…I was snoozing so nicely in my deep ocean trench and you guys woke me up. Look, I am a mutated Godzillasaurus from a pacific island that was used for atomic bomb testing. I am NOT some petri dish biological specimen gone awry. Now, cut it out with the insults so I can get my beauty sleep.[/quote]

No rest for the weary, beast of burden! Now you can either come willingly and stomp on some buildings for me (I know you love seeing Japanese people running and screaming, don’t try to deny it) or I can reattach the mind-control device we used in “Gozilla vs. Space Godzilla” and I can MAKE you do it. I hate to be so harsh, but I’m gonna throw in some extra plutonium for breakfast. Who’s my favorite giant mutated monster? You know who it is… :slight_smile:

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
mark57 wrote:
I really don’t understand the opposition to this.

I think this has to do with an “erosion of values” principle. Of course there’s nothing morally wrong with stem cell research, but the chicken littles link stem cell research with abortion, and in their minds this is just one step before women start getting abortions on purpose just to fuel some mad scientist’s scheme of a clone army to take over the world and make everybody turn socially liberal.

Although, I have to admit that the Godzilla thing was pretty cool too. Maybe I’ll do that instead. Thanks for the idea.

[/quote]

I don’t think it’s so much of a link between abortion and stem-cells in the minds of those who oppose – I think they view them as the same thing. If one believes human life begins at conception and at that point you have something that deserves human rights, then from that perspective there would be no difference between the two.

Wall Street Journal Editorial

Stem-Cell Lines
May 26, 2005; Page A12

The debate over stem-cell research is once again being portrayed as a kind of moral Armageddon: a choice between federal funding and none, between scientific progress and religious zealotry. We hate to spoil the political drama, but maybe the system has stumbled toward a compromise that is more sensible than the debate makes it appear.

A bipartisan bill that passed the House on Tuesday would lift restrictions imposed by President Bush in 2001 on federal financing for stem-cell research. Mr. Bush threatens to veto the bill – a first for his Presidency – saying it “would take us across a critical ethical line.” But despite GOP defections and likely passage in the Senate, no one doubts that Mr. Bush has the votes to sustain a veto.

Recall what the President’s August 2001 decision actually did. It allowed federal funding for research on existing stem-cell lines where, he said, “the life and death decision has already been made.” But it forbade funding for research into new lines, which entailed both the creation and destruction of human embryos.

Critically, Mr. Bush’s decision applied only to federal funding; it did not impinge on the rights of individual researchers, universities, hospitals, private labs, public corporations or states to conduct embryonic research. In other words, the President did not “ban” anything. He simply refused to allow taxpayer money to be spent on a practice millions of Americans consider morally offensive.

So what’s happened, research-wise, since 2001? Given the rhetoric of some of the President’s critics, you might think the answer is nothing. In fact, federal funding for all forms of stem-cell research (including adult and umbilical stem cells) has nearly doubled, to $566 million from $306 million. The federal government has also made 22 fully developed embryonic stem-cell lines available to researchers, although researchers complain of bureaucratic bottlenecks at the National Institutes of Health.

At the state level, Californians passed Proposition 71, which commits $3 billion over 10 years for stem-cell research. New Jersey is building a $380 million Stem Cell Institute. The Massachusetts Legislature has passed a bill authorizing stem-cell research by a veto-proof margin, and similar legislation is in the works in Connecticut and Wisconsin.

Then there’s the private sector. According to Navigant Consulting, the U.S. stem-cell therapeutics market will generate revenues of $3.6 billion by 2015. Some 70 companies are now doing stem-cell research, with Geron, ES Cell International and Advanced Cell Technologies being leaders in embryonic research. Clinical trials using embryonic stem-cell technologies for spinal cord injuries are due to begin sometime next year.

True, many privately funded researchers complain about what they call Mr. Bush’s “antiquated stem-cell policy.” But we have yet to meet the CEO or entrepreneur who doesn’t bridle at government restrictions, or who wouldn’t welcome more in government subsidies under the heading of “basic research.”

These companies are still raising private equity on the capital markets, and CEO David Greenwood tells us that Geron has been developing its own stem-cell lines, a process he says has only gotten cheaper as they get better at it. “When Bush made those comments in 2001 we applauded,” he says. “We thought at the time, ‘hey, this is a victory.’ There was a minimum sufficiency of material to get the ball rolling.”

All of which is to say that if embryonic stem-cell researchers can get this far within the regime Mr. Bush imposed in 2001, then surely they can go further without additional federal help. The same goes for the $79 million the President and his allies in Congress are proposing to spend on umbilical cord stem-cell research. Here, too, the government is spending tax dollars to subsidize a private sector that already has every incentive to invest.

Which brings us to the political compromise we mentioned above. The Bush policy doesn’t ban stem-cell research; it merely says that taxpayers shouldn’t have to finance the destruction of embryos that they consider to be human life. This is a contentious moral issue, and many would draw a line differently than Mr. Bush has.

For our part, we don’t see any great moral difference from doing time-limited research on unused embryos created for in-vitro fertilization, as opposed to letting those in-vitro embryos be destroyed. (We recommend James Q. Wilson’s statement as part of Mr. Bush’s bioethics commission for some important moral distinctions.) But we’re glad Mr. Bush is at least drawing a line somewhere. His critics often sound as if the promise of scientific progress raises no ethical questions and is itself a kind of moral trump card. Millions of Americans also want to draw a line, and that includes not being forced to pay for destroying human embryos.

This is similar to the compromise that Congress has struck on abortion ever since the Hyde Amendment first passed in the wake of Roe v. Wade: Abortion may be legal, but we don’t force taxpayers to subsidize it. That’s the compromise Mr. Bush essentially struck on stem cells in 2001, and it is a reasonable balance.

[quote]djnixon wrote:
A few points:

  • Bush only stops the ‘Federal’ funding of ‘embryonic’ stem cell research, he does not make it illegal. The states and individual private labs are free to study , destroy, eat, etc. embryos if they want to.

  • The Federal government funds adult and umbilical cord stem cell research. It’s not affected by Bush’s restrictions.

  • The concept that it’s only embryonic stem cell research that is keeping paralyzed people from walking is complete BS. There is no scientific proof that there is a cure right around the corner that only embryonic stem cell research can provide.

  • If you think embryo’s are not life you should meet the many ‘snowflake babies’ out there who in the earliest part of their lives were cryogenically preserved human embryo’s leftover in fertility labs that some couples/women adopted and impregnated into their wombs and brought to birth.

Now who is being so radical? Guess it wasn’t the retards who were so uninformed afterall.

[/quote]

Well said.

This is more a political issue than a medical issue at this point. The Democrats and the media have done an excellent job on this telling a small part of the story and the Republicans and right to lifers have done a poor job telling the rest of the story.

Last I heard, those lines had been contaminated by animal proteins, and are therefore useless for therapies, and could call any experimental results into question. Also, those lines cannot be kept around indefinitely, I think around 60+ generations, because they eventually could turn cancerous. Just like the cells we have, after so many divisions, errors can creep into the DNA and allow unregulated growth.

Besides, it’s not as if the government hasn’t ever spent large amounts of taxpayer money on things a majority would find morally repugnant. At least this time they could save some lives while they’re at it.

[quote]mark57 wrote:
Ok, so the House passed a bill that lifts some restrictions on embryonic stem cell research.

Still fairly restrictive though, which is why I don’t really understand the resistance. The embryos can only be left over from in vitro fertilization, they’re going to be destroyed as medical waste. Or simply flushed down the drain.

They can not be bought or sold, only donated by the couples undergoing fertility treatment.

But the fanatics are still screaming about murder and the destruction of life. Bush has vowed to veto it, and the religious right is vowing revenge on the Republican reps who supported it.

Why? These are cells in a petri dish that are going to be destroyed. They are not under any circumstance going to ever become a living (let alone human) being. (Unless you have a sci-fi imagination and want to write a movie about a bunch of them sticking to the side of a sewer pipe and living off effluvient, growing into some sort of massive Godzilla-type humanoid monster that destroys cities).

I really don’t understand the opposition to this.[/quote]

that’s because you think logically…

I think just for a point of reference, it would be nice to know what the last 5 government funded medical breakthroughs were and also what the last 5 non government funded medical breakthroughs were. I mean if it’s a symbolic battle bush want’s to win and isn’t even prectical anyways, I say let him have his cake and work on something that matters. However if the money the government spends will really make a difference, then it’s probably a battle worth fighting.

V

Good to see all the Leftist intellectual firepower out and about.

This represents what I thought more people wanted from Bush - a moderate, compromising approach. He isn’t interested in banning it outright, but understands the ethical/moral dilemma that it raises and doesn’t want the federal government extending funding to it.

It is a reasonable middle ground - lots of Americans have religious/ethical concerns (wha?! personal values aren’t supposed to count - separation of church and state!!!) on the status of stem cells and embryos.

I think it is a fair approach, and I am largely behind stem-cell research.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Many religions believe life begins at conception.

To harvest the stem cells the embryo (life) is destroyed.

The choice is simple, change religious belief or oppose the destruction of embryos.

I think most people undestand we should not breed clones in order to harvest organs. That is not very farfetched given the rapid technological advancement.

The question is where to draw the line. We know where the Catholic Church and Bush stand. [/quote]

This completely ignores the fact that this bill deals with left over embryos that are going to be DESTROYED. They aren’t saved. According to you (and Bush, I guess) these embryos are human beings. So then flushing them down the drain or incinerating must be murder, right? Why aren’t there pickets outside every fertility clinic in the country?

Please try, logically, to explain to me how or why the routine destruction of left over embryos is no big deal, but harvesting stem cells and using them for research “crosses a moral line”?

I’d really like for vroom, profX, Elk and Mufasa to take a look at this thread. All the labels given to the pro-life side are quite offensive.

Why is it again that it’s okay to call us names, and label us, but when we reciprocate - it is a crime?

Can any of you advance your argument without all the labeling and name calling?

And before a certain hypocrite gets on here and tells me to quit whining - I’m not. Just calling attention to the double standard that is going on.

[quote]djnixon wrote:
A few points:

  • Bush only stops the ‘Federal’ funding of ‘embryonic’ stem cell research, he does not make it illegal. The states and individual private labs are free to study , destroy, eat, etc. embryos if they want to.

  • The Federal government funds adult and umbilical cord stem cell research. It’s not affected by Bush’s restrictions.

  • The concept that it’s only embryonic stem cell research that is keeping paralyzed people from walking is complete BS. There is no scientific proof that there is a cure right around the corner that only embryonic stem cell research can provide.

  • If you think embryo’s are not life you should meet the many ‘snowflake babies’ out there who in the earliest part of their lives were cryogenically preserved human embryo’s leftover in fertility labs that some couples/women adopted and impregnated into their wombs and brought to birth.

Now who is being so radical? Guess it wasn’t the retards who were so uninformed afterall.

[/quote]

The question is still embryonic stem-cell research to be performed on embyros all ready slated for destruction. It has nothing to do with snowflake babies. The radicalness is keeping the public uninformed, and the fake values to garner support from constitution haters. In other words instead of potentially helping americans at NO MORAL COST he’s again screwing americans and american businesses to get support from a small radical right wing group. At least you admit these groups are retarded, kudos.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
djnixon wrote:
A few points:

  • Bush only stops the ‘Federal’ funding of ‘embryonic’ stem cell research, he does not make it illegal. The states and individual private labs are free to study , destroy, eat, etc. embryos if they want to.

  • The Federal government funds adult and umbilical cord stem cell research. It’s not affected by Bush’s restrictions.

  • The concept that it’s only embryonic stem cell research that is keeping paralyzed people from walking is complete BS. There is no scientific proof that there is a cure right around the corner that only embryonic stem cell research can provide.

  • If you think embryo’s are not life you should meet the many ‘snowflake babies’ out there who in the earliest part of their lives were cryogenically preserved human embryo’s leftover in fertility labs that some couples/women adopted and impregnated into their wombs and brought to birth.

Now who is being so radical? Guess it wasn’t the retards who were so uninformed afterall.

Well said.

This is more a political issue than a medical issue at this point. The Democrats and the media have done an excellent job on this telling a small part of the story and the Republicans and right to lifers have done a poor job telling the rest of the story. [/quote]

No, one side isn’t telling you the whole story and regardless supports the destruction of these cells. They are doing NOTHING to stop the process of destruction; or the process by which they are created. The Dems are just pointing out this blatantly obvious fact. There is NO moral issue here, a rarity in these social value things.