Stem Cells, Again

[quote]mark57 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Many religions believe life begins at conception.

To harvest the stem cells the embryo (life) is destroyed.

The choice is simple, change religious belief or oppose the destruction of embryos.

I think most people undestand we should not breed clones in order to harvest organs. That is not very farfetched given the rapid technological advancement.

The question is where to draw the line. We know where the Catholic Church and Bush stand.

This completely ignores the fact that this bill deals with left over embryos that are going to be DESTROYED. They aren’t saved. According you you (and Bush, I guess) these embryos are human beings. So then flushing them down the drain or incinerating must be murder, right? Why aren’t there pickets outside every fertility clinic in the country?

Please try, logically, to explain to me how or why the routine destruction of left over embryos is no big deal, but harvesting stem cells and using them for research “crosses a moral line”?
[/quote]

There is no moral line, its a phony issue and all concerned know it. The important thing is to keep the religous right happy.

[quote]mark57 wrote:
Ok, so the House passed a bill that lifts some restrictions on embryonic stem cell research.

Still fairly restrictive though, which is why I don’t really understand the resistance. The embryos can only be left over from in vitro fertilization, they’re going to be destroyed as medical waste. Or simply flushed down the drain.

They can not be bought or sold, only donated by the couples undergoing fertility treatment.

But the fanatics are still screaming about murder and the destruction of life. Bush has vowed to veto it, and the religious right is vowing revenge on the Republican reps who supported it.

Why? These are cells in a petri dish that are going to be destroyed. They are not under any circumstance going to ever become a living (let alone human) being. (Unless you have a sci-fi imagination and want to write a movie about a bunch of them sticking to the side of a sewer pipe and living off effluvient, growing into some sort of massive Godzilla-type humanoid monster that destroys cities).

I really don’t understand the opposition to this.[/quote]

I agree completely. I think it’s so stupid. There’s no hope for the embryos to become anything else. So we use them in a life-afirming way: to cure cancer and Alzhimers.

[quote]mark57 wrote:

This completely ignores the fact that this bill deals with left over embryos that are going to be DESTROYED. They aren’t saved. According you you (and Bush, I guess) these embryos are human beings. So then flushing them down the drain or incinerating must be murder, right? Why aren’t there pickets outside every fertility clinic in the country?

Please try, logically, to explain to me how or why the routine destruction of left over embryos is no big deal, but harvesting stem cells and using them for research “crosses a moral line”?
[/quote]

AGREE. It would be a different situation if the embryos weren’t going to be destroyed if they weren’t harvested for stem cells. But they ARE. Since this is the case, their method of destruction should improve the lives of LIVING human beings.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Wall Street Journal Editorial

Stem-Cell Lines
May 26, 2005; Page A12

The debate over stem-cell research is once again being portrayed as a kind of moral Armageddon: a choice between federal funding and none, between scientific progress and religious zealotry. We hate to spoil the political drama, but maybe the system has stumbled toward a compromise that is more sensible than the debate makes it appear.

A bipartisan bill that passed the House on Tuesday would lift restrictions imposed by President Bush in 2001 on federal financing for stem-cell research. Mr. Bush threatens to veto the bill – a first for his Presidency – saying it “would take us across a critical ethical line.” But despite GOP defections and likely passage in the Senate, no one doubts that Mr. Bush has the votes to sustain a veto.

Recall what the President’s August 2001 decision actually did. It allowed federal funding for research on existing stem-cell lines where, he said, “the life and death decision has already been made.” But it forbade funding for research into new lines, which entailed both the creation and destruction of human embryos.

Critically, Mr. Bush’s decision applied only to federal funding; it did not impinge on the rights of individual researchers, universities, hospitals, private labs, public corporations or states to conduct embryonic research. In other words, the President did not “ban” anything. He simply refused to allow taxpayer money to be spent on a practice millions of Americans consider morally offensive.

So what’s happened, research-wise, since 2001? Given the rhetoric of some of the President’s critics, you might think the answer is nothing. In fact, federal funding for all forms of stem-cell research (including adult and umbilical stem cells) has nearly doubled, to $566 million from $306 million. The federal government has also made 22 fully developed embryonic stem-cell lines available to researchers, although researchers complain of bureaucratic bottlenecks at the National Institutes of Health.

At the state level, Californians passed Proposition 71, which commits $3 billion over 10 years for stem-cell research. New Jersey is building a $380 million Stem Cell Institute. The Massachusetts Legislature has passed a bill authorizing stem-cell research by a veto-proof margin, and similar legislation is in the works in Connecticut and Wisconsin.

Then there’s the private sector. According to Navigant Consulting, the U.S. stem-cell therapeutics market will generate revenues of $3.6 billion by 2015. Some 70 companies are now doing stem-cell research, with Geron, ES Cell International and Advanced Cell Technologies being leaders in embryonic research. Clinical trials using embryonic stem-cell technologies for spinal cord injuries are due to begin sometime next year.

True, many privately funded researchers complain about what they call Mr. Bush’s “antiquated stem-cell policy.” But we have yet to meet the CEO or entrepreneur who doesn’t bridle at government restrictions, or who wouldn’t welcome more in government subsidies under the heading of “basic research.”

These companies are still raising private equity on the capital markets, and CEO David Greenwood tells us that Geron has been developing its own stem-cell lines, a process he says has only gotten cheaper as they get better at it. “When Bush made those comments in 2001 we applauded,” he says. “We thought at the time, ‘hey, this is a victory.’ There was a minimum sufficiency of material to get the ball rolling.”

All of which is to say that if embryonic stem-cell researchers can get this far within the regime Mr. Bush imposed in 2001, then surely they can go further without additional federal help. The same goes for the $79 million the President and his allies in Congress are proposing to spend on umbilical cord stem-cell research. Here, too, the government is spending tax dollars to subsidize a private sector that already has every incentive to invest.

Which brings us to the political compromise we mentioned above. The Bush policy doesn’t ban stem-cell research; it merely says that taxpayers shouldn’t have to finance the destruction of embryos that they consider to be human life. This is a contentious moral issue, and many would draw a line differently than Mr. Bush has.

For our part, we don’t see any great moral difference from doing time-limited research on unused embryos created for in-vitro fertilization, as opposed to letting those in-vitro embryos be destroyed. (We recommend James Q. Wilson’s statement as part of Mr. Bush’s bioethics commission for some important moral distinctions.) But we’re glad Mr. Bush is at least drawing a line somewhere. His critics often sound as if the promise of scientific progress raises no ethical questions and is itself a kind of moral trump card. Millions of Americans also want to draw a line, and that includes not being forced to pay for destroying human embryos.

This is similar to the compromise that Congress has struck on abortion ever since the Hyde Amendment first passed in the wake of Roe v. Wade: Abortion may be legal, but we don’t force taxpayers to subsidize it. That’s the compromise Mr. Bush essentially struck on stem cells in 2001, and it is a reasonable balance.[/quote]

Uhhghh! Could they pander anymore? Hello? Bush is supporting the flushing of these cells down the toilet. And there is still no moral issue as the WSJ knows. And the stupid comparison to abortion, shouldn’t the government invest in the health,and finances of the country? There’s no problem for the WSJ on our investments in Iraq for example, and it certainly is a moral issue for some–and the same majority not supporting the President on Iraq doesn’t support him on stem-cells. America says yes. Bush says flush.

[quote]100meters wrote:

No, one side isn’t telling you the whole story and regardless supports the destruction of these cells. They are doing NOTHING to stop the process of destruction; or the process by which they are created. The Dems are just pointing out this blatantly obvious fact. There is NO moral issue here, a rarity in these social value things.[/quote]

As soon as Federal money was available for the research, an embryo industry would spring up. More embryos would certainly be created (and ultimately destroyed) than currently are.

[quote]mark57 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Many religions believe life begins at conception.

To harvest the stem cells the embryo (life) is destroyed.

The choice is simple, change religious belief or oppose the destruction of embryos.

I think most people undestand we should not breed clones in order to harvest organs. That is not very farfetched given the rapid technological advancement.

The question is where to draw the line. We know where the Catholic Church and Bush stand.

This completely ignores the fact that this bill deals with left over embryos that are going to be DESTROYED. They aren’t saved. According you you (and Bush, I guess) these embryos are human beings. So then flushing them down the drain or incinerating must be murder, right? Why aren’t there pickets outside every fertility clinic in the country?

Please try, logically, to explain to me how or why the routine destruction of left over embryos is no big deal, but harvesting stem cells and using them for research “crosses a moral line”?
[/quote]

I do not believe the federal government is funding the destructiuon of unwanted embryos. It has neither encouraged nor banned this action.

Nothing is being banned here folks. The federal government pulled funding for ONE portion of stem sell research regarding starting new lines of embryonic stem cells.

I personally am not sure that Bush is drawing the line in the sand in the right place.

If further research (yes, it is still being done) shows that embryonic stem cells is the best or only way to go to cure disease and or paralysis I will support it within the limits being proposed in the current legislation.

Unless this happens it just looks like typical politics to me.

[quote]doogie wrote:
100meters wrote:

No, one side isn’t telling you the whole story and regardless supports the destruction of these cells. They are doing NOTHING to stop the process of destruction; or the process by which they are created. The Dems are just pointing out this blatantly obvious fact. There is NO moral issue here, a rarity in these social value things.

As soon as Federal money was available for the research, an embryo industry would spring up. More embryos would certainly be created (and ultimately destroyed) than currently are. [/quote]

I believe the current legislation is written to prevent this, but it is still a likely scenario.

Regardless of where this goes embryo production soley for the purpose of research should not occur.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
gojira wrote:
Dammit…I was snoozing so nicely in my deep ocean trench and you guys woke me up. Look, I am a mutated Godzillasaurus from a pacific island that was used for atomic bomb testing. I am NOT some petri dish biological specimen gone awry. Now, cut it out with the insults so I can get my beauty sleep.

No rest for the weary, beast of burden! Now you can either come willingly and stomp on some buildings for me (I know you love seeing Japanese people running and screaming, don’t try to deny it) or I can reattach the mind-control device we used in “Gozilla vs. Space Godzilla” and I can MAKE you do it. I hate to be so harsh, but I’m gonna throw in some extra plutonium for breakfast. Who’s my favorite giant mutated monster? You know who it is… :slight_smile:
[/quote]

ZZZZZZzzzzzzzz…

I think while the question is complicated, and is a moral one for some of us, it is not the only question. Stem cells harvested from umbilical cord blood have been used successfully in pretty amazing ways http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=106857

Adult stem cell research has apparantly also shown more promise than embryonic stem cells to this point. Logic would dictate that resources be put into the more promising lines. Once again, President Bush has not banned fetal stem cell research. He has banned federal funding of said research. Don’t believe that these companies desiring this funding have pure altruistic reasons for wanting federal funding. In the first place, it is harder to get private investors to fund speculative research. Secondly, any scientific breakthrough means millions or billions of dollars for the company that makes it. It seems incongruous that some of the same people that scream about the “outrageous” profits that pharmaceutical companies make have no problem pumping federal dollars into the same pipeline.

As far as the President pandering to the “religious right”; if there are such vast majorities that want this research, what is the political benefit of him doing so? Is it so hard to believe that the man is acting on deep held personal convictions? Not everyone governs totally by opinion poll (see Clinton, Bill)

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

I believe the current legislation is written to prevent this, but it is still a likely scenario.

Regardless of where this goes embryo production soley for the purpose of research should not occur.[/quote]

I believe you’re right, the legislation bars the sale of embryos or embryonic tissues. It provides for funding research on DONATED embryos left over from in vitro fertilization only.

I saw a picture today of Bush posing with children born from donated embryos, I suppose the inference is that they wouldn’t exist if this bill becomes law. But in reality the vast majority of embryos will continue to be destroyed, a small percentage will still be donated for fertilazation and, hopefully, some will also be donated for research.

Zap B

Excellent posting! If you take the rhetoric out of the equation and look strictly at what is being ‘withheld’ by the ‘radical right,’ it becomes more and more apparent that little is effected by Bush’s decision/beliefs.

There really isn’t even much to argue about here seeing as only Federal funding is being withheld at this time.
I don’t see any problems with that at all. Everyone’s opinion matters in this type of case, and enough people care on both sides that we can allow the private sector to advance at their will, and step back Federally.

Look at the recent progress made in private sector space/air travel. The money exists to promote the programs and fund all experiments needed at this time. Really, little is affected, if any, right now.

Excellent thread.

As usual, I want to make a few bulletpoint comments.

First, to my liberal friends, think about the slippery slope. Bush has talked about it. He’s doing his best, not to retard science in any way, but to set a Federal example.

Second, read BB’s thread. No, read it twice. Then read Thunder’s summary.

If you are still confused (lumpy) then you are beyond hope.

Third, please reference the amount of money that has been spent over the past four years on this particular research.

Fourth, I get a laugh when I see lumpy trotting out the pandering to the religious right horseshit. For what, lumpy? So he can win in 08’? So that he gets some nice Republican to write a flattering book about him in 12’? Maybe it’s a setup for George H.W. Bush’s second term. It’s time for a little payback!!! Remember, H.W. Bush bought every single vote, into the Guard, all of W’s grades, his marriage to Laura, his children’s braces, and still had enough money to buy success of the recent Iraqi elections.

Say what you will about this guy, he makes his stance clear, takes it to the voters, and then delivers on his promises. What makes him unique, is that you can tell he genuinely believes in his actions.

He believes in them regardless of what the nyt/npr/lumpy or future biographers may say.

JeffR

[quote]100meters wrote:
There is no moral line, its a phony issue and all concerned know it. The important thing is to keep the religous right happy.[/quote]

Why don’t you fund this research then, if you feel so strongly? There is nothing barring you from doing so, not even the President.

To those of you that oppose this: What if a loved one needed something that could be helped by stem-cell research? Would you just let them die because you oppose it? If stem-cell research is playing God, then we should stop saving people’s lives all together. Who are we to stop them from dying if it’s God’s will? I’m all for stem-cell research because I never know if or when I or a loved one may need something that can be provided by stem-cell research. RLTW

rangertab75

Life begins in a womb.

Unborn fetuses are apendages of the person carrying them (like the scabs I pick from my shins after last weeks deadlifts).

Embryonic stem-cell research has been co-opted by the pro-abortion crowd to the point that no one understands just how low on the totem-pole it is. Remember the whole Christopher Reeves dog and pny show?

Umbilical stem-cells are found in much higher abundance, and has shown more promise in research than ESC’s. Same with adult stem-cells.

If a life is going to be saved through the use of stem-cells, I’ll bet the farm that it won’t be from ESC’s.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Life begins in a womb.

Unborn fetuses are apendages of the person carrying them (like the scabs I pick from my shins after last weeks deadlifts).[/quote]

There exists debate as to when life begins. That has little to do with stem cell research as presented on this thread.

I know of no case where prosecution ocurred from death to a month old fetus. I know of many where charges were brought by the death of a third trimester fetus.

Nice comparison though.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I’d really like for vroom, profX, Elk and Mufasa to take a look at this thread. All the labels given to the pro-life side are quite offensive.

Why is it again that it’s okay to call us names, and label us, but when we reciprocate - it is a crime?

Can any of you advance your argument without all the labeling and name calling?

And before a certain hypocrite gets on here and tells me to quit whining - I’m not. Just calling attention to the double standard that is going on.[/quote]

Are you calling me a hypocrite rainman? Why my feelings are hurt. I’m gonna half to go all Joe Wieder on your ass now!

(In my best rainman voice) Where, where, did someone call you a NAME? Show me one Gulldamn time where someone labeled YOU! I DARE you to find one instance on this thread where anyone held you to a double standard. It’s not my damned job to prove anything to you are any damned body else. Damn you all to hell anyway!!! Damn the world!!! Anybody who disagrees with me is a damn IDIOT anyway!!! And I make the clothes I wear look Damn good too… on top of every other damn thing.

All sarcasm aside, I would just have to echo what mark57 has said. That pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.

This is an issue I could go either way on. I understand these embryos that they want to use are doomed anyway.

What I get really upset about is the false impression most people have due to poor reporting and intentional lies told by the Democrats for political gain.

Stem cell research continues for embryonic stem cells.

The federal government is fully funding research for all other stem cell sources.

This cannot be said often enough because most people have missed these facts or are intentionally ignoring them.

Learn all the facts and make your own decision.

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
Show me one Gulldamn time where someone labeled YOU! [/quote]

That was actually sort of funny. But honestly, elk - I don’t think they let you say Gulldamn anymore. Seriously.

But if they do - I can guarantee you It would never roll off this tongue.