Bush's First Veto

Just another reason to hate him. He’ll regret this when he gets alzeimer’s or Parkinson’s. Can’t say I’ll feel for him either.

House Sustains Bush’s Veto of Stem Cell Bill
Thursday, July 20, 2006

WASHINGTON ? The House on Wednesday failed to override President Bush’s first veto of his five-and-a-half-year administration, cast earlier in the day when he rejected a bill that would have provided more federal funding for embryonic stem cell research.

The vote, 235-193, was less than the two-thirds needed to forward the bill to the Senate for its consideration.

Click here to read President Bush’s letter to the House of Representatives.

“If this bill were to become law, American taxpayers for the first time in our history would be compelled to fund the deliberate destruction of human embryos. Crossing this line would be a grave mistake and would needlessly encourage a conflict between science and ethics that can only do damage to both and harm our nation as a whole,” Bush wrote in a letter to the House explaining his decision to veto the measure.

Beginning debate on the issue, House Majority Leader John Boehner of Ohio asked his colleagues to uphold the president’s veto.

“The bill signed by the president today is a positive step forward,” Boehner said shortly after the chamber began debate.

“No just society should condone the destruction of human life, even in the name of medical research,” Boehner said.
Rep. Diana DeGette, D-Colo., criticized the president’s decision. She said the president had “snuffed out the candle of hope” for Americans suffering from a number of diseases who could benefit from the research.

Bush spoke in the East Room after vetoing the measure, saying he did so to uphold values on human life.

“In this new era, our challenge is to harness the power of science to ease human suffering without sanctioning the practices that violate the dignity of human life,” Bush said in the East Room of the White House after vetoing the measure.

Bush announced his veto surrounded by 18 families who “adopted” frozen embryos not used by other couples to have children, otherwise known as “snowflake babies.”

“Each of these children was still adopted while still an embryo and has been blessed with a chance to grow, to grow up in a loving family. These boys and girls are not spare parts,” Bush said after several interruptions of applause from supporters. “They remind us of what is lost when embryos are destroyed in the name of research. The remind us that we all begin our lives as a small collection of cells. And they remind us that in our zeal for new treatments and cures, America must never abandon our fundamental morals.”

Rep. Roscoe Bartlett, R-Md., released a statement in support of the veto, saying it is possible to study “pluripotent” stem cells, believed to be equally useful but not derived by destroying embryos. He sponsored a bill proposing such a plan, but it failed a two-thirds vote in the House. The Senate unanimously passed an identical bill.

“I’m hopeful that the House members who voted against my bill before the president’s veto will decide they want to take it up again and approve it,” Bartlett said.

With the Senate’s passage of the legislation Tuesday, the bill was put on a virtual collision course with the president’s desk. In August 2001, Bush permitted existing federal research to continue, but has fervently advocated against increased government funding. He and others argue that stem cells that come from human embryos ? unlike stem cells derived from adults ? can only be harvested through the loss of a human life.

“The president believes strongly that for the purpose of research, it’s inappropriate for the federal government to finance something that many people consider murder. He’s one of them,” said White House spokesman Tony Snow.

Bush argued that the bill would have crossed a line and “once crossed, we would find it impossible to turn back.”

At the same time, Bush announced he had signed another bill, passed unanimously in the House and Senate, that would pre-emptively ban “fetal farming,” the prospect of raising and aborting fetuses for scientific research.

The veto came a day after the Senate defied Bush and approved the legislation, 63-37, four votes short of the two-thirds margin needed to override. Stem cells are considered by a number of scientists to be a possible key to unlocking the secrets of, and developing cures for, many difficult diseases and medical problems such as Alzheimer’s, paralysis and other brain-function disorders. The House passed the original bill in May 2005.

Many scientists say the embryonic stem cells hold more hope than their adult-derived counterparts because they are the cells that multiply into the many types of cells that build the human body. Adult stem cells do not act the same way.

“Those lives will not begin, but many other lives will end if we do not use all the scientific resources available,” said Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., referring to the multitude of discarded embryos sitting in fertility clinics that could be plied for the favored embryonic stem cells.

Several high-ranking and conservative celebrities ? including former first lady Nancy Reagan, whose husband, President Ronald Reagan, suffered from Alzheimer’s ? have said they believe that embryonic stem cell science could eventually save millions of lives.

The Senate vote was preceded by two days of debate, which also involved a number of personal stories to highlight the possible impacts of the research.

The House and Senate votes reflected public opinion polls. A May Gallup poll showed that 61 percent of respondents found research of human embryo stem cells morally acceptable. The same poll, however, showed that only 43 percent believed abortion was morally acceptable.

Proponents said the bill lifting that restriction also puts strong ethical guidelines in place, requiring donors to give their informed consent for using embryos that would otherwise be discarded.

“The unfortunate part is, if the president does veto the bill, then it sets us back a year or so until we can finally pass a bill that will have the requisite supermajority to be able to become law,” said Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah. “And that sets back embryonic stem cell research another year or so.”

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., a surgeon who pushed for expanding federal funding for embryonic stem cell research, said Bush in private conversation vowed not to let any more embryos be destroyed for research with federal money on his watch.

Democrats said two other stem cell bills under debate Tuesday were designed to appease voters angry that the GOP-led government had not opened more doors to research.

“Their opposition to stem cell research is outside the American mainstream, so they want to give themselves political cover by voting for two meaningless bills,” said Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid. “It’s a playbook straight from the Republican Orwellian world of politics.”

looks like we disagree on something else. I applaud him for his veto. He shouldn’t have had to.

ME solomon Grundy

The bill prevents federal funds from being used for stem cell research. It does not prevent private funded research from being done, right?

Can a couple who has a couple dozen of unused, frozen embryos donate them to a research center, or is that also made illegal?

I find those statements ironic and somewhat hypocritical seeing as how his war in Iraq has left thousands of people dead who would have otherwise had a bright future in this world.

[quote]Applesauce wrote:
I find those statements ironic and somewhat hypocritical seeing as how his war in Iraq has left thousands of people dead who would have otherwise had a bright future in this world.
[/quote]

Yeah, and it hasn’t done anything for Iraqis either. Saddam is still there, still being a dick.

Oh shit. He’s not.

Back on topic, I don’t really care at all either way. I mean, I’d prefer he didn’t veto this, but can’t things still be done privately? It’s not like he’s done anything serious, right? He’ll be out of office in a couple of years anyway.

[quote]pookie wrote:
The bill prevents federal funds from being used for stem cell research. It does not prevent private funded research from being done, right?

Can a couple who has a couple dozen of unused, frozen embryos donate them to a research center, or is that also made illegal?

[/quote]

That’s correct. This is about federal funding.

[quote]pookie wrote:
The bill prevents federal funds from being used for stem cell research. It does not prevent private funded research from being done, right?

Can a couple who has a couple dozen of unused, frozen embryos donate them to a research center, or is that also made illegal?

[/quote]

Bush thinks it’s murder to use blastocysts that would have been thrown away to potentially alleviate or cure sickness and pain in actual people.

Unless, of course, private corporations do it. Then it’s not murder.

Or something.

Letting George W. Bush have a say in matters scientific is like letting Stevie Wonder judge the Miss America pageant.

hypocrisy at its finest. He says it is immoral to “kill” embryos for scientific research so he vetoes a bill that would fund them more, but he let’s the previous ones continue getting funded.

Congratulations Dubya, you are single handedly holding back the advancement of the human race as a whole, well, until another country leapfrogs us in the medical research field.

We’ll not mention how many embryos DO and WILL get destroyed in fertility clinics each year, since there is no way to implant all of them. But since we don’t use them for research its all good.

[quote]harris447 wrote:

Letting George W. Bush have a say in matters scientific is like letting Stevie Wonder judge the Miss America pageant.
[/quote]

LOL

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Just another reason to hate him. He’ll regret this when he gets alzeimer’s or Parkinson’s. Can’t say I’ll feel for him either.[/quote]

Would you feel better if the money saved sacrificing stem cells gets the vaccines to work?:

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/07/23/alzheimers.vaccine/

IMO, I think he made the right decision. The stem cell issue isn’t clear enough yet to force the gov’t to start dumping money into grinding up embryos. Let the hype die down before we start forcing people to fund it with their taxes. The gov’t shelled out a bunch of money in order to sequence the genome and Venter/Celera bested them. Two years later Celera dropped Venter because ‘selling genomic inforation wasn’t profitable’. This was 4-6 yrs. ago and there is yet to be a genomic medicine market (Roche is trying). To think that stem cells can live up to a greater hype than the genome in a shorter time is overly optimistic. In the future, when S. Korea is really getting crippled people to walk, then write up another bill. Until then stem cells are a buzzword.

But it’s good to know that an Irish Catholic laborer is down for killing babies to advance research.:slight_smile:

[quote]lucasa wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Just another reason to hate him. He’ll regret this when he gets alzeimer’s or Parkinson’s. Can’t say I’ll feel for him either.

Would you feel better if the money saved sacrificing stem cells gets the vaccines to work?:

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/07/23/alzheimers.vaccine/

IMO, I think he made the right decision. The stem cell issue isn’t clear enough yet to force the gov’t to start dumping money into grinding up embryos. Let the hype die down before we start forcing people to fund it with their taxes. The gov’t shelled out a bunch of money in order to sequence the genome and Venter/Celera bested them. Two years later Celera dropped Venter because ‘selling genomic inforation wasn’t profitable’. This was 4-6 yrs. ago and their is yet to be a genomic medicine market (Roche is trying). To think that stem cells can live up to a greater hype than the genome in a shorter time is overly optimistic. In the future, when S. Korea is really getting crippled people to walk, then write up another bill. Until then stem cells are a buzzword.

[/quote]

It’s becoming widely acknowleged that there is a lot of hope in here.

Plus, Bush isn’t doing this on grounds of wanting to take it slow- it goes against his archaic “morals” I guess, and if we always had an asshole like him as President, we’d never go forward at all with it.

[quote]

But it’s good to know that an Irish Catholic laborer is down for killing babies to advance research.:)[/quote]

It’s good that you’re judging my character off of a message board. For that, fuck you.

On top of that, abortion and stem cells are different issues. If the stem cells are there, and only going to be thrown out, then use them to try and save lives, instead of lining the garbage can with them. To think differently is asinine.

The scientists aren’t convincing women to abort because they want stem cells, and don’t make it seem like they are.

[quote]lucasa wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Just another reason to hate him. He’ll regret this when he gets alzeimer’s or Parkinson’s. Can’t say I’ll feel for him either.

Would you feel better if the money saved sacrificing stem cells gets the vaccines to work?:

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/07/23/alzheimers.vaccine/

IMO, I think he made the right decision. The stem cell issue isn’t clear enough yet to force the gov’t to start dumping money into grinding up embryos. Let the hype die down before we start forcing people to fund it with their taxes. The gov’t shelled out a bunch of money in order to sequence the genome and Venter/Celera bested them. Two years later Celera dropped Venter because ‘selling genomic inforation wasn’t profitable’. This was 4-6 yrs. ago and their is yet to be a genomic medicine market (Roche is trying). To think that stem cells can live up to a greater hype than the genome in a shorter time is overly optimistic. In the future, when S. Korea is really getting crippled people to walk, then write up another bill. Until then stem cells are a buzzword.

But it’s good to know that an Irish Catholic laborer is down for killing babies to advance research.:)[/quote]

Toilets didn’t make a lot of money at first.

The government seems to have no problem dumping money into grinding up actual humans in Iraq.

And calling microscopic clumps of cells “babies” is beneath you.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

It’s becoming widely acknowleged that there is a lot of hope in here.[/quote]

Way to miss the point. I wasn’t saying there wasn’t hope, there is/was lots of hope for the human genome too. It hasn’t come to fruition yet. Also, I don’t think federal funding will make or break it. Especially since private funding in the US can easily be as good or better than gov’t funding abroad. And as California has shown Federal funding and State funding are two different issues. Further, read up on the Celera/NHGRI, Celera did in ~5 yrs. w/ $300M what took the NHGRI 10 yrs. and $3B. What’s the point of jumping on a bandwagon that doesn’t even have wheels yet?

Really? I hadn’t heard ‘No stem cells ever!’ from him. I do have some hearing maladies, but I actually heard largely middle-of-the-road responses. Things like ‘No ban, but no federal funding except for the lines that are already established’. Sounds more like ‘slow’ than ‘no go’ to me. And if he goes slow against his own archaic ‘morals’ that shows even more wisdom, IMO.

BTW- It’s Clinton’s signature at the bottom of the Dickey Amendment

Good to know that you took it waaayyy more seriously than I did. The ‘baby killing’ comment was merely in jest. I’m pretty sure you’re as much against fetus farming and the like as the rest of us. Lighten up.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

It’s good that you’re judging my character off of a message board. For that, fuck you.[/quote]

Trust me, your character has come across loud and clear on these boards. You have spoken up forcefully and profanely on every topic under the sun. Your goal in life is that every person will know what you think about every topic. So don’t go try and pull this “you don’t know me well enough to judge me” nonsense.

Are you telling me you oppose abortion?

The real point here is that stem cells and embryonic stem cells are different issues. There have been promising advances made using adult stem cells and stem cells from umbilical cords. Why does your side constantly ignore this fact?

[quote]harris447 wrote:
And calling microscopic clumps of cells “babies” is beneath you.[/quote]

Yeah, why not simply call them “potential family support and loving parents” while we’re at it.

About 60% of fecunded ovum are eventually evacuated, totally naturally, for some reason or other. In other words, nature itself aborts about 60% of all pregnancies at the very early (and sometimes not so early) stages.

I don’t see many people filtering their wive’s menses to find and rescue those “potential lives.”

[quote]JPBear wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

It’s good that you’re judging my character off of a message board. For that, fuck you.

Trust me, your character has come across loud and clear on these boards. You have spoken up forcefully and profanely on every topic under the sun. Your goal in life is that every person will know what you think about every topic. So don’t go try and pull this “you don’t know me well enough to judge me” nonsense.
[/quote]

Fuck off. This is a politics board, that’s what we do here.

Isn’t there a Bible somewhere for you that needs reading?

I took Lucasa’s post too seriously, but then I’ve said many times that conveying sarcasm over the net is hard to do.

I don’t oppose abortion at all, and I think that if what is left over is something that can help humanity through research, more power to a scientist to use it.

You want to make an omelet, you gotta break some eggs. If it’s for the greater good of humanity, I’m for it. As I said, it’s better than throwing them out.

[quote]lucasa wrote:

Good to know that you took it waaayyy more seriously than I did. The ‘baby killing’ comment was merely in jest. I’m pretty sure you’re as much against fetus farming and the like as the rest of us. Lighten up.
[/quote]

My apologies.

[quote]harris447 wrote:

Toilets didn’t make a lot of money at first.[/quote]

Yeah, but toilets actually worked. And just as stem cells have the potential to heal, they have the potential to cripple as well.

People are free not to enlist, they were also free to vote for someone else, much the same way people are free not to pay for the destruction of embryos. And before you go there, I believe, to a degree, people should be free not to fund the DoD.

True, I was being cavalier. It occurs to me now that with all different threads, the zealots, and whackos around here my stance on the moral version of the issue isn’t quite clear. Until it has brain activity, you’re right, it’s zygote/blastula. Some peg it at 40 d, some at 20 wks., I’m comfortable with 40d, 20 wks. is very much skirting the death/life line IMO, but for the stem cell debate this is a moot point.

[quote]pookie wrote:
harris447 wrote:
And calling microscopic clumps of cells “babies” is beneath you.

Yeah, why not simply call them “potential family support and loving parents” while we’re at it.

About 60% of fecunded ovum are eventually evacuated, totally naturally, for some reason or other. In other words, nature itself aborts about 60% of all pregnancies at the very early (and sometimes not so early) stages.

I don’t see many people filtering their wive’s menses to find and rescue those “potential lives.”
[/quote]

Are you serious?

Do I really need to point out to you that what happens naturally is a different issue than what man orchestrates?

[quote]JPBear wrote:
Do I really need to point out to you that what happens naturally is a different issue than what man orchestrates?[/quote]

Some embryos don’t make it. Whether from nature or man’s intervention, the end result is the same.

What do you propose we do with all those thousands of frozen embryos that are sitting in cryogenic storage?