mike, why the need to insult people?
Christopher Reeves argument that “if they were not used for this research they WOULD BE THROWN in the trash” is specious reasoning. They could with equal validity, suggest that we allow research on 6 month fetuses scheduled for partial birth abortions. The fact is that we all die sometime. Do those of us who are going to die later have the right to kill (and exploit) those who die sooner?
Even if an individual’s death is imminent, we still do not have a license to use him for lethal experiments. We cannot for example, conduct experiments upon death-row prisoners or harvest their organs without their consent. Nor can we extract body parts from mortally wounded soldiers while they are dying on the battlefield.
I wrote this in the above post but it is important enough to repeat.
There is no proof that ESCR is going to cure any disease. A few months ago there was very disturbing research on fetal cell research. It was reported in the New York Times on March 8, 2001. The title of the article was “Catastrophic Side Effects Derail Study of FETAL-cell implants.”
What had happened is the NIH did a carefully controlled study designed to treat Parkinson’s disease with EMBRYONIC dopamine cells not only failed to benefit patients, but also produced “catastrophic” side effects in 15% of the transplant recipients. Apparently, the implanted cells grew too well, churning out chemicals that caused patients to wither and jerk uncontrollably. One researcher in the study said the results were “absolutely devastating” and a “real nightmare that we cannot turn off.” So fetal cell research is not the breakthrough research that every proponent is talking about. It is very unproven.
i’m for it… i think most of the people against it are ignorant to some degree (yes, even the pope). They cant have beef with stem cell research so much as the in vitro fertilization program, that is pre-requisite. FACT: upwards of 50,000 unused embryos are left over every year from invitro fertilization. FACT: only a small percentage of these are “adopted,” most goto waste. FACT: the only current plan is to use already, created leftover embryos (this is a fault of the in-vitro proccess, not of research) and there is an estimate of needing a mere 30 embryos. The opposition (similarly to those against mj legalization) continually tries to evoke righteous emotions that are unfounded, and use various scare tactics to scare people. That is generally what happens though, when you take a stand and DO NOT have facts to support it.
Okay, I’ll give my perspective first, so you can weigh my views more easily. My father has Parkinson’s, and both his partents had Parkinson’s. Chances are I’ll have it too. The possibilities from SCR are intriguing. I really wasn’t aware that there was non-embrionic SCR, and that clears up a lot of the ethical problems I had with it. I’m not going to get into a discussion of “when life begins” or what constitutes a human. If SCs can be harvested from fat cells and placenta, then I have no problem with that. However, doesn’t this then carry the genetic code of the person it came from? How about rejection? People who have organ transplants have to take medications for the rest of their lives to prevent rejection of the organ. How does this apply to “transplanted” cells? I’m no medical expert, maybe some one could comment?
The difference between THIS collection of atoms and a collection of atoms in a petri dish is one of complexity. I am quite complex, so much so that I pose a threat to the people around me. They, likewise, post a threat to me. As a result, we agree to leave each other alone. This agreement is motivated by rational self-interest, and does not in any way depend on the supposed “morality” or “immorality” of murder, theft, etc., because such actions cannot be “right” or “wrong” inasmuch as those words are meaningless.
We are not threatened by embryos, nor by their owners, who gladly give them to science, so there is no need to enter into an agreement with embryos, nor could such a thing possibly make sense.
I think we just need to farm people to use for spare parts. This makes complete sense. Lets grow people so we could do research. It did wonders for german medicine.
First, let me say that I like it when Mike the L insults people. The thin veneer of civility overlaying these arguments barely covers the hostility and prejudice from all parties. So when Mike L starts calling people names, it just brings the discussion down to its true level, without the social hypocrisy. At least it’s more honest.
In case any of you haven’t noticed, abortion is legal in this country. That means that public policy has already been made regarding when the value of life begins. So abortions are going to continue regardless what anyone has to say about them or FSCR. The question is what to do with the left-over tissue – either it goes in the incinerator or it ends up being of some use in a lab. Fetal stem cell research is much more promising than the work with its mature counterpart; don’t try to say it’s not, because you’ll just embarass yourself by a display of ignorance. And just because the early experiments have problems does not make the research unethical. I think about the development of anaesthesia and how many people were crippled or died from the early experiments, even the researchers themselves. That didn’t make for moral problems at the time, because the benefits of the research warranted the risks. Would anyone reading this post care to undergo surgery without anaesthesia, because of some moral arguement that people were crippled or died in its early stages of development? I think not. The world has benefited enormously from these same risks. Same goes for FSCR.
Abortions will continue. We are left with the residue. Why not put it to good use? The long-term benefits could be the most promising thing ever to happen to medical care in history. And yes, the early expirements will not work, but that is the nature of scientific research.
If you don’t want to participate in FSCR, then don’t have an abortion or use in vitro fertilization. As far as your tax dollar goes, it stopped being yours as soon as you gave it to the Feds. You’ll have very little to say about how it’s spent, and that’s a situation I’m not very happy with either.
And isn’t it curious that no women have posted an answer to this thread, considering that they are the source of all fetal tissue?
Mike the Lib is totally right. People need to get off their moral high horses. Take a look at it from the perspective of someone who is dying of a disease that could be cured by stem cell research. You think he gives a shit if scientists use stem cell research…I don’t tink so. A fetus that is less than a week old is NOT alive and does not have a soul or anything. It is jsut a bunch of atoms that would have become a person eventually. Actually, no it’s not, cause the cells they are using would have died anyway, at least I think. I would even say that we should farm the cells to increase progress. I hate it when people try to stand in the way of science because of a moral objection. Throughout history they have ALWAYS lost the battle of morals vs science. You can’t stop them from diong what they are GOING to do. Even if the Gov doesn’t fund it some private organization will do it in hopes of earning mucho dinero on cures. I’m not losing sleep over this in the least bit.
Brider:there’s theoretical bio-engineering techniques that could eliminate rejection risk or you could have your non-ESC harvested and
cultured.
GregD:ESC aren’t harvested from fetuses rather from embryo’s at the blastocyst stage which is
a few days after fertilization.
Oh man, how could you not be for Embryonic Stem Cell research? Because it hasn’t been proven to be effective yet, well hell, no AIDS vaccines, or cures for cancer have been proven to work so we might as well stop working on those because it obviously never will, we can let all those people die. Nothing works the first time, not even the first hundred times in most cases. And the ESC have shown some promise that they could be much more viable than their adult counterparts, but because you’re afraif of God noone can explore that avenue? That’s selfish. Everyone with Parkinson’s, or who is paralyzed and doomed to a wheel chair for the rest of their life can go to hell, because you don’t want to extract cells from a glob of what ‘could’ become a person. “Killing” these embryos in order to possibly rid our society of all sorts of horrible aflictions is fine by me. And what if their is no God to answer to when it’s all said and done, then you’re asking alot of people to suffer quite needlessly, and if it makes you feel better, when you need this to save your life or just to make it more comfortable, noone will make you partake in the marvels of modern medicine. I know noone really mentioned religion in regards to this, but the hyper-religious holy rollers are the only people that seem really opposed to this type of research. Pull your heads out and check out the upside.
Ok, I’ll bite. An aborted baby is dead. Yes, it was a baby, and the mother decided to terminate the pergnancy. It is her right. So, now there is a dead baby that could be used for research. Go ahead and use it. People donate their bodies to science all the time. The only difference would be if people were getting pregnant so that they could have an abortion so they could sell the baby for the research, and since that is/would be illegal to do there doesn’t seem to be any issue of morality here. Just like a parent can choose to donate the organs of a child that dies, a parent should be able to choose to donate their aborted baby or fetus if they choose. A fetus created from invetro fertalization is still a child, and if the parents choose to terminate the life of that child before it is born they have that right…just like if they had concived ‘normally’ and aborted the child.
thats my point exactly. THere are tons of “leftovers” from invitro, most of the christian groups, operate on this nieve ideal, that all of these “babies” could be adopted. Not once in the USA has nearly even half of them been adopted. The American scientist want less than 1/1000 of the left over embryos… Finally they all agree, that they nor will anyone, ever “manufacture” embryos just to conduct research, they will only use the leftovers.
I’ll write this again, no aborted fetuses were
used in ESC research, rather it’s embryo’s
which are by products of IVF procedures.The embryo’s were in the blastocyst stage which are several days old and about 140 cells.
Sorry guys. This is worse than the Religion thread. Is there anything that relates this to powerlifting, bodybuilding, or getting laid?
Lipo: If you are going to have topics about getting “Laid” then topics such as this and religion should also be allowed. If this board were to be restricted, it should be restricted to weightlifting, powerlifting and bodybuilding. IMO let us “T-Men” talk about it all.
Does this apply to lifting? Let’s see… How about repairs to torn muscle/ligament? Enhancing muscle connections? If these cells can turn into ANYTHING, then the (far reaching) extension is almost scary. I can see a time coming when you could essentially buy the body you want without having to work for it. IMHO if it pertains to medical research (i.e., to human performance), then it also applies to lifting.
Well, I for one will never support it. That’s my opinion. I’m not going to debate it. Later.