is it strange that I can press more standing with a staggered stance than i can seated?
I always start out seated but when I move further towards my working weight it feels more and more awkward until I just ditch the chair and unrack it from the chest
[quote]schultzie wrote:
is it strange that I can press more standing with a staggered stance than i can seated?
I always start out seated but when I move further towards my working weight it feels more and more awkward until I just ditch the chair and unrack it from the chest[/quote]
Depends, if you use some leg drive, then you can obviously do more there seated. If you go strict and really lift with your shoulders, you’ll do more weight seated (provided that your shoulders aren’t weak so that your tris and traps take over).
In bodybuilding, we do shoulder presses to gasp make the shoulders bigger, not fatigue traps or tris…
my shoulders are a weakpoint, i do not use any leg drive
[quote]schultzie wrote:
my shoulders are a weakpoint, i do not use any leg drive[/quote]
Then sit down to be sure you don’t. If you weren’t, there would be no better explanation for why you claim you can do more standing. If your shoulders are still the primary movers, it shouldn’t change your working weight significantly.
My goal when training shoulders is to train my shoulders…not my legs, my back, or any other muscle group.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
schultzie wrote:
my shoulders are a weakpoint, i do not use any leg drive
Then sit down to be sure you don’t. If you weren’t, there would be no better explanation for why you claim you can do more standing. If your shoulders are still the primary movers, it shouldn’t change your working weight significantly.
My goal when training shoulders is to train my shoulders…not my legs, my back, or any other muscle group.[/quote]
For bodybuilding purposes, the best that has worked for me is to find the combination between isolation of the muscle and load. An equivalent for back would be using chest supported exercises (except on dumbbell rows).
Even when talking about shoulders, I think this is a general aspect for the ones focused mainly on overall muscle building.
you guys are right,I think it’s due to me being unfamiliar with seated pressing, The whole unracking aspect of it where it’s over my head and I can’t see what I’m doing
Personally I do them in the power rack. I’m not a big fan of being seated and potentially being unable to re-rack the weight and having nowhere to go with it. Besides with the set-up you are describing I might have to quit a rep earlier than I might be able to get, on account of only being able to try the rep if knowing I can get it.
Also the dedicated station makes it, at least for me, not so practical to sit vertically. Leaning back to unrack, then sitting up to lift, then leaning back again to unrack, doesn’t seem right to me and I don’t do it.
Lastly, in some cases I find restricted range of motion useful, e.g. having stops at bottom-of-chin height, or top-of-head height or not much below that.
I think it’s just a personal preference really now that I have read everyone’s post. I have also realized that I don’t like the racking aspect of the seated press since you need a spotter if you want to go for a grinding last rep.
I dunno, but I know that I feel more comfortable doing a clean and press. Maybe I will switch to seated one day.
There’s this:
Everyone that is strong at standing can do well seated any time they want.
Not everyone who is strong at seated can do well at standing.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
There’s this:
Everyone that is strong at standing can do well seated any time they want.
Not everyone who is strong at seated can do well at standing.[/quote]
Very good point Bill.
I hope a lot fo you people realise this is bodybuilding, not the “it’s etter because you use your core” section. I used to do standing bb presses, but I’ve switched to high incline smith or seated with no back on the bench with dbs. I only do the bottom partials now. guess what? My shoulders are way huger than before.
[quote]elano wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
There’s this:
Everyone that is strong at standing can do well seated any time they want.
Not everyone who is strong at seated can do well at standing.
Very good point Bill.[/quote]
Is it? I could go the rest of my life and never do standing shoulder presses. I also don’t see most really big lifters who are moving a lot of weight relying on them for shoulder development.
It’s a point when there is an actual functional problem that is not apparent in seated shoulder presses but is apparent in standing.
I’m an example of that personally. In the past my strict military press was reasonably respectable by average-Joe standards though nothing exceptional (just over bodyweight.) However after an extended layoff and then on returning doing only seated, after a while I found my standing press was pathetic.
I tried working at it but it wasn’t improving. And as it’s not an ego lift for me – if I understand you correctly, like you it’s more important to me how the shoulders look – since I was getting nowhere with it while making progress with seated, I dropped it out.
Shoulder got worse and worse. Actually it rarely interferes with training – other than ruling out a few exercises there are perfectly good substitutes for – but in everyday life it gives me problems.
Not problems from capsule injury I don’t believe, not problems from a tear. Some sort of muscular problem that is revealed on standing presses but not seated.
The weakness preceded the pain. (If it had been the other way around then arguably the pain might have not be resulting from weakness but rather, weakness resulting from pain.)
While I do many things to help cure it, the thing that has seemed the biggest help is working the standing press, slow as the progress is. The weights are still pathetic, but at least improving.
I understand completely your point and agree with the general point that in bb’ing the concern is really not being able to do such-and-such in whatever given lift or being stronger than the next guy in that lift and so on.
But it shouldn’t be taken to extremes. If a guy believes his physique is awesome though he can squat and DL only 225, ah, we can bet that there is in fact a problem with muscular development at least somewhere. At least one thing is really lacking and these lifts are revealing it.
(While also being true that it doesn’t matter in the least in bb’ing whether Bodybuilder A totals 200 lb higher in the Big Three than Bodybuilder B and does not necessarily predict who will look more muscular and better.)
Generally speaking it’s still true that for the same person being stronger in major lifts of the basic-strength type is a good thing and helps in getting bigger.
If I were the only one plagued with good seated press / bad standing press I wouldn’t have bothered to mention it. However it isn’t drastically unusual.
I do think it is a sign of some muscle not being developed as well as it should be. What the heck it is, I don’t know. (Not traps, not supraspinatus, infraspinatus, or teres, not levator scapulae, not delts, not triceps, not “core.”) But surely my physique would be better if it were up to par.
In contrast, I haven’t noticed a disparity in those that had really excellent physiques.
I didn’t say that all that are strong in the seated press (and don’t do standing) are weak in the standing. By no means. But some are, and it’s probably not best.
If the weakness could be addressed by some other means, some totally different exercise, that would be fine with me. But what exercise it is that cures good-seated/weak-standing, besides the standing press, I don’t know.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
elano wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
There’s this:
Everyone that is strong at standing can do well seated any time they want.
Not everyone who is strong at seated can do well at standing.
Very good point Bill.
Is it? I could go the rest of my life and never do standing shoulder presses. I also don’t see most really big lifters who are moving a lot of weight relying on them for shoulder development.[/quote]
Why couldn’t you develop big shoulders from only doing standing press? I don’t exactly see what the big difference is. There are guys moving big weights in both.
It does seem to me that one can work the delts more intensively seated than standing, particularly front delts.
My intent was never to argue against an advanced lifter doing seated, but rather to warn that someone still well on their way up may do well to avoid becoming dependent on being seated.
An advanced lifter who in fact can press reasonably well standing but just chooses not to, favoring seated, I see no reason he should necessarily change.
[quote]Der Candy wrote:
So what about the spinal compression. Your spine gets alot more compressed from heavy ass squats and deadlifts than a shoulder press.[/quote]
err… yes but you do squats and deadlifts standing, not seated… hence my comment about the two springs in series.
my comments were more about the risks of injury from heavy “unsupported” seated presses, as opposed to high incline seated presses with a back support.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
esk221 wrote:
I prefer seated because I can use more weight.
…which is what builds big strong muscles. I am in the gym to make progress, not to impress everyone with how I clean a weight and press it.[/quote]
there will come a point when the weight is too heavy for me to clean, then i think switching back to supported high inclines is necessary to keep improving the poundage.
someone as big and experienced as you i’m sure your well past that point. myself as still a relatively week intermediate am still getting the benefit from the clean.
to the OP.your thread has opened a great debate and diversity of opinion. good luck with your training.
[quote]elano wrote:
Professor X wrote:
elano wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
There’s this:
Everyone that is strong at standing can do well seated any time they want.
Not everyone who is strong at seated can do well at standing.
Very good point Bill.
Is it? I could go the rest of my life and never do standing shoulder presses. I also don’t see most really big lifters who are moving a lot of weight relying on them for shoulder development.
Why couldn’t you develop big shoulders from only doing standing press? I don’t exactly see what the big difference is. There are guys moving big weights in both.[/quote]
There are guys moving bigger weight seated. Cleaning the weight in the first place means less overall weight can be used. You can NOT use maximum heavy weight on shoulders when you have to leave a reserve in the tank to not only clean the weight but set it down afterwards. It actually makes less sense to do them standing the more we discuss this. Also, your definition of “big” may be different than mine. Big to me is someone who is strong enough to press 2-3 plates a side overhead or more. Why would someone who can do that risk a shoulder injury just so they can clean the weight from the ground?
You don’t get extra points for making this shit as complicated as possible and, trust me, your shoulders are NOT a joint you want to fuck around with.
If you are still only moving 1 plate a side at the most, your risk of serious injury may be less. That changes once you build enough size and strength to fill out a XXL shirt or larger.
I know too many guys with serious rotator cuff injuries who aren’t even that big for me to take my shoulder training lightly or to employ techniques that put me at even greater risk of permanent injury.
It honestly seems as if some of you train just so you can show off in the gym with your “functional” training methods. No one experienced gives a shit and that’s just the truth.
Im going to stick with standing for the time being, because of the following reasons:
I don’t have a decent base of shoulder strength yet (135x3 standing)
I haven’t gotten good enough technique to move on from the basic lift.
I know where I am in terms of strength in the lift
I don’t have any shoulder problems and I’m not currently flat benching
I only just barely fill out a large t
[quote]schultzie wrote:
Im going to stick with standing for the time being, because of the following reasons:
I don’t have a decent base of shoulder strength yet (135x3 standing)
I haven’t gotten good enough technique to move on from the basic lift.
I know where I am in terms of strength in the lift
I don’t have any shoulder problems and I’m not currently flat benching
I only just barely fill out a large t
[/quote]
You do realize that those things may not improve unless you actually concentrate on improving them?
Technique sucks for recruiting delts (i.e. you lift with your traps and tris) ?
How is this going to be fixed by continuing what you’ve been doing before? (btw zephead has a good point on the high-incline in the smith, this one allows you to sort of press forward and up at the same time and really allows you to torch the delts vs. tris and traps.)
Not currently having shoulder problems? You will develop them if you
continue pressing with the wrong technique.
I want to add this here: If you aren’t using those yet, add in broomstick stretches/“dislocations”(the name is kinda stupid) and properly done face-pulls… But all the prehab in the world won’t help you if you develop bones purs or bursitis or whatever from improper technique.
Don’t have a decent base of shoulder strength? Same thing, won’t improve much due to improper technique.
Btw, if you can get a vid of your pressing up we could point out some technique problems…
I’m not saying “avoid the standing military press”. I’m saying "learn how to press with your shoulders before you do an exercise which has quite a few technical intricacies and makes it too easy to use other muscle-groups as the main movers instead of the intended one.
Btw, how about rotating exercises? Standing military the one time, Seated Smith High-Incline or a HS press every other session?