Squatting to Depth vs Adding Weight to the Bar

Training
41

These arguments are often interesting, looking at it from the outside.

The reasons given are usually based around fear and negativity… e.g., “if you don’t go to depth, you’ll get injured”, or even “if you don’t go to depth, you won’t get ‘proper’ development”, or “it won’t carry over well to [insert whatever]”

It’s just odd that the approach is basically to scare people into going to parallel or lower.

And it’s even more odd that those arguments don’t really have much substance to them anyway. If you lift weights, and actually push yourself to get better at it, you’re going to get injured. Whether that be major injury, or just niggling pains, you’re going to get injured. I could sit at home and play video games and not get injured, or I could go out in the gym and expose myself to that risk. These are things that I think every beginner should also come to terms with – you might as well be upfront with the potential costs, instead of suggesting that there’s some easy low-risk way to get their goals. I really don’t think that’s a good lesson to teach anyway.

As for the others… well, what is “proper” development anyway? There are people who’ve done quite well aesthetically without ever really squatting. As for carryover, well, squatting more or less to depth is really not nearly as important as just actually practicing your activity.

Obviously that doesn’t mean to be stupid about things. There are definitely ways to do things that are less likely to lead to injuries or whatever, and I think spreading that information is helpful. But present it in a positive light and as choices, rather than trying to scare people into doing things a certain way. Most people are intelligent enough to make a decision, given options and information.

Squatting to depth will develop different muscles in different ways than not squatting to depth. If you care about maximally developing those muscles, and you’re neglecting them with your training (whether you’re squatting or not), then you’re doing something wrong. If you’re ok with that tradeoff, fine.

If you’re an olympic lifter, for your sport, it’s pretty useful to learn to do a good ATG squat. If you’re a powerlifter, for your sport, it’s pretty useful to learn to do a proper parallel squat. If you’re just looking to get bigger and stronger, and whatever you’re doing is getting you bigger and stronger, keep doing it.

Squatting with “proper” form is by no means a safety net from injury or inadequate development; there’s really no need to present it as such.

42

On that note…

@howareyoumeduck:

What are you trying to get out of squatting? Why are you squatting? What kind of development have you seen so far from the squats? What are you not seeing that you hoped to see? Have you felt any soreness or injuries from the way you currently squat?

43

[quote]LoRez wrote:
On that note…

@howareyoumeduck:

What are you trying to get out of squatting? Why are you squatting? What kind of development have you seen so far from the squats? What are you not seeing that you hoped to see? Have you felt any soreness or injuries from the way you currently squat?[/quote]

What I’m trying to get out squatting is full overall development. My program is 3 days a week, and I squat every time I workout. According to sources, the squat releases the most muscle building hormones of any exercise. So if that information is correct, it is a must for any beginner program. If it is not correct, I still see it as a must because it will aid in overall development. Everyone hears (and sees) the stories of those who go to the gym, develop their upper body, and rarely train legs because it is hard work.

Why I’m squatting links in with the above, and I have grown to love the squat. When I first started to squat I hated it, but now I look forward to it.

Development I have seen so far is, quads have increased in size, glutes have increased. my whole body is growing and I feel a lot stronger than I did a few months ago.

What am I not seeing which I hoped to see?, I’m not to sure on this one, I feel my body is developing ok. However could it be better if I focus on hammering the technique and the depth. I think it has been mentioned that if I squat to full depth should see better development, which is my goal.

Soreness/injuries. I don’t get soreness anymore I think my body has adapted to squatting 3x a week. Unless I foam roll, which is usually done after the last session of the week so the doms can be gone by Monday. Injuries, none as of yet, and hoping to keep it that way.

44

the problem with not squatting to depth is that the heavier your weights get, the higher your squats’ll be. I’m not saying this is true for everyone, but it’s true for pretty much everyone.

Learn to squat properly. It’ll mean much lighter weights at first, but it’ll be worth it in the long run.

Partial training like T3hPwnisher has its place but you’re way off needing advanced techniques like that for the moment.

45

I want to see a video of this “not breaking parallel” squat. If it’s an inch high, fuck it, keep going. If it’s 6 inches high, that’s another story.

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[quote]Yogi wrote:
the problem with not squatting to depth is that the heavier your weights get, the higher your squats’ll be. I’m not saying this is true for everyone, but it’s true for pretty much everyone.

Learn to squat properly. It’ll mean much lighter weights at first, but it’ll be worth it in the long run.

Partial training like T3hPwnisher has its place but you’re way off needing advanced techniques like that for the moment.[/quote]

dude. no. just no.

47

I’ve dropped the weight back to 60kg today and gone ‘atg’. The squats felt better and I could feel my quads working more. Ill try and get a video up of a 120kg squat so you can see for yourselves. To be honest though, the ‘atg’ felt much better than how I was squatting before.

48

[quote]Jarvan wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
the problem with not squatting to depth is that the heavier your weights get, the higher your squats’ll be. I’m not saying this is true for everyone, but it’s true for pretty much everyone.

Learn to squat properly. It’ll mean much lighter weights at first, but it’ll be worth it in the long run.

Partial training like T3hPwnisher has its place but you’re way off needing advanced techniques like that for the moment.[/quote]

dude. no. just no.[/quote]

go on then, enlighten me

49

[quote]howareyoumeduck wrote:
I’ve dropped the weight back to 60kg today and gone ‘atg’. The squats felt better and I could feel my quads working more. Ill try and get a video up of a 120kg squat so you can see for yourselves. To be honest though, the ‘atg’ felt much better than how I was squatting before. [/quote]

nice, and you’ll see better gains soon.

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[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]Jarvan wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
the problem with not squatting to depth is that the heavier your weights get, the higher your squats’ll be. I’m not saying this is true for everyone, but it’s true for pretty much everyone.

Learn to squat properly. It’ll mean much lighter weights at first, but it’ll be worth it in the long run.

Partial training like T3hPwnisher has its place but you’re way off needing advanced techniques like that for the moment.[/quote]

dude. no. just no.[/quote]

go on then, enlighten me[/quote]

“the problem with not squatting to depth is that the heavier your weights get, the higher your squats’ll be. I’m not saying this is true for everyone, but it’s true for pretty much everyone.”

So you’re advocating that it is ok to not squat to depth at higher weights?
And no, it just isn’t true for everyone. Where do you get this notion from? Are you speaking of beginners who have a tendency to do this?

“Learn to squat properly. It’ll mean much lighter weights at first, but it’ll be worth it in the long run.”

True, but I feel you’re directly contradicting your previous statement.

“Partial training like T3hPwnisher has its place but you’re way off needing advanced techniques like that for the moment.”

What advanced techniques? Partial squats?

51

[quote]Jarvan wrote:
“the problem with not squatting to depth is that the heavier your weights get, the higher your squats’ll be. I’m not saying this is true for everyone, but it’s true for pretty much everyone.”

So you’re advocating that it is ok to not squat to depth at higher weights?
And no, it just isn’t true for everyone. Where do you get this notion from? Are you speaking of beginners who have a tendency to do this? [/quote]

nope, I didn’t say anything about it being ok to squat high with higher weights. And you’ll also notice I said it isn’t true for everyone, but it is common.

You see it all the time in gyms: dudes load up like 60k, and squat it deep. Then they add a little more weight, and the reps get a little higher, then as each progressive set gets heavier the depth gets worse.

I actually recommed touch-and-go box squats for beginners (or guys who suck at squatting in general) to fix this. Usually works, and it’s pretty funny seeing how humbled people are by their strength levels once they get deep.

[quote]Jarvan wrote:
“Learn to squat properly. It’ll mean much lighter weights at first, but it’ll be worth it in the long run.”

True, but I feel you’re directly contradicting your previous statement.[/quote]

Don’t really see a contradiction. My first statement said not squatting deep is a problem, this statement said to learn to squat correctly. Seems fairly cogent to me.

[quote]Jarvan wrote:
“Partial training like T3hPwnisher has its place but you’re way off needing advanced techniques like that for the moment.”

What advanced techniques? Partial squats?

[/quote]

Ya, t3hpwnisher is a big fan of starting with limited ROM and increasing to full ROM (correct me if I’m wrong, t3hpwnisher), but considering the OP is squatting 120k which is a fairly beginner weight, and he’s not hitting depth, then I don’t think he needs to experiment with a fairly advanced technique such as this.

52

should also point out I’m not one of those who blindly advocates a2g squatting for everyone. You should only ever go as deep as your flexibility allows before your hips tuck under. Obviously that means there’ll be a pretty huge variation in depth, but it’s unlikely a person wouldn’t be able to get at least a little below parallel

53

[quote]Yogi wrote:
Ya, t3hpwnisher is a big fan of starting with limited ROM and increasing to full ROM (correct me if I’m wrong, t3hpwnisher), but considering the OP is squatting 120k which is a fairly beginner weight, and he’s not hitting depth, then I don’t think he needs to experiment with a fairly advanced technique such as this.
[/quote]

I like it for myself yeah. I’ve had decent results using this with beginners as well. I find it’s a great mobility cure that allows for one to still get stronger while at the same time working to a full ROM.

But again, the biggest takeaway with my philosophy is that results are all that matters. If someone is squatting on an upside down bosu ball with a kettlebell in one hand and they are meeting their goals, I see zero reason to change. If someone is squatting with beautiful, perfect ATG form for reps and not meeting their goals, a change needs to happen.

54

[quote]howareyoumeduck wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
What are you trying to get out of squatting? Why are you squatting? What kind of development have you seen so far from the squats? What are you not seeing that you hoped to see? Have you felt any soreness or injuries from the way you currently squat?[/quote]

What I’m trying to get out squatting is full overall development. My program is 3 days a week, and I squat every time I workout. According to sources, the squat releases the most muscle building hormones of any exercise. So if that information is correct, it is a must for any beginner program. If it is not correct, I still see it as a must because it will aid in overall development. Everyone hears (and sees) the stories of those who go to the gym, develop their upper body, and rarely train legs because it is hard work.

Why I’m squatting links in with the above, and I have grown to love the squat. When I first started to squat I hated it, but now I look forward to it.

Development I have seen so far is, quads have increased in size, glutes have increased. my whole body is growing and I feel a lot stronger than I did a few months ago.

What am I not seeing which I hoped to see?, I’m not to sure on this one, I feel my body is developing ok. However could it be better if I focus on hammering the technique and the depth. I think it has been mentioned that if I squat to full depth should see better development, which is my goal.[/quote]
It sounds like you’re getting what you want out of your training, so keep doing what you’re doing.

That said, if you want to give deeper squats a try, there’s a couple ways to do it. One is to do what you just did, drop the weight down significantly, and work your way up. However, since you’re working at a much lighter weight, it’s possible that you won’t notice any problems with your form; namely, you may not have the hip mobility (your tailbone starts rounding under too much) and as you add weight, you might start getting back or knee pain from it.

But that may not be an issue… just something to be on the lookout for and make adjustments.

Another way to make this transition to squatting deeper is to just keep your current weight on the bar (120k?), and spend the next few sessions doing your same routine, just getting deeper each time. That way you’re still working with a heavier weight, and over a few sessions, you’re also hitting better depth. Once you hit that depth, you can start adding weight to the bar again.

As far as depth…
You could also squat down to a box, or squat up from pins. I wouldn’t recommend squatting down to pins, since it’s pretty jarring when you hit them. Both of those approaches will keep you honest on the depth.

The whole Growth Hormone/IGF release stuff, if I understand things right, has more to do with subjecting large amounts of your body to a heavy load, than whether or not you’re squatting. Deadlifts, farmers walks, yoke walks, all of those also should have a similar effect. That said, I’m pretty sure it’s also a fairly transitory and negligible; I think it’s talked up mostly as a way to persuade people to squat and deadlift heavy.

On the other hand, growth does come from subjecting muscles to a period of time under heavy loads: “time under tension”. This is where it gets a little blurry when it comes to weight vs depth. For instance, clearly your back can support at least 120k. If you increase that to 150k, your back is going to continue to grow, along with the rest of your body.

However… while 60k is probably enough to get certain areas of your legs and hips to grow more right now, it’s not enough stimulus for the rest of your body. Once you get that up to 120k+ though, it will be.

So don’t be surprised if you see some loss of size and strength in the rest of your body while you’re working back up to 120k at better depth. A few weeks from now, you might be questioning whether it made sense to improve your depth… but just stick with it and get back to the weights you were at and you’ll start seeing growth everywhere again.

That’s good to hear.

55

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
Ya, t3hpwnisher is a big fan of starting with limited ROM and increasing to full ROM (correct me if I’m wrong, t3hpwnisher), but considering the OP is squatting 120k which is a fairly beginner weight, and he’s not hitting depth, then I don’t think he needs to experiment with a fairly advanced technique such as this.
[/quote]

I like it for myself yeah. I’ve had decent results using this with beginners as well. I find it’s a great mobility cure that allows for one to still get stronger while at the same time working to a full ROM.[/quote]

It’s an interesting way to train, definitely, but I wouldn’t personally use it with a beginner, and certainly not with squats. Most people’s squats are so horrendous that I think it’s better just to stick to the bread and butter.

I was actually trying it myself with benching - going for a shallower and shallower decline - but didn’t really give it an honest go. Might come back to it someday.

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
But again, the biggest takeaway with my philosophy is that results are all that matters. If someone is squatting on an upside down bosu ball with a kettlebell in one hand and they are meeting their goals, I see zero reason to change. If someone is squatting with beautiful, perfect ATG form for reps and not meeting their goals, a change needs to happen.[/quote]

I don’t see how anyone could ever disagree with that!

56

I think if you’re not going into powerlifting you should go ATG.

My reasoning is because:

  • as a human (assuming no injury, arthritis, etc) you should have the mobility to get in that position (and structural strength to sit in the hole for 10 minutes). If you don’t actively squat in this way, your chances of working to keep that sort of mobility/strength up are fuck all
  • ATG squats are just more impressive, even for much lighter weight
57

[quote]tsantos wrote:
I think if you’re not going into powerlifting you should go ATG.

My reasoning is because:

  • as a human (assuming no injury, arthritis, etc) you should have the mobility to get in that position (and structural strength to sit in the hole for 10 minutes). If you don’t actively squat in this way, your chances of working to keep that sort of mobility/strength up are fuck all
  • ATG squats are just more impressive, even for much lighter weight

[/quote]

Wouldn’t it actually be a better idea in this instance to have your feet elevated from the platform so that you can squat deeper? I feel like that would give you greater benefits.

58

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
But again, the biggest takeaway with my philosophy is that results are all that matters. If someone is squatting on an upside down bosu ball with a kettlebell in one hand and they are meeting their goals, I see zero reason to change. If someone is squatting with beautiful, perfect ATG form for reps and not meeting their goals, a change needs to happen.[/quote]

I think there is value in squatting to depth just to avoid feeling like a cheap dirty whore.

:slight_smile:

59

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
But again, the biggest takeaway with my philosophy is that results are all that matters. If someone is squatting on an upside down bosu ball with a kettlebell in one hand and they are meeting their goals, I see zero reason to change. If someone is squatting with beautiful, perfect ATG form for reps and not meeting their goals, a change needs to happen.[/quote]

I think there is value in squatting to depth just to avoid feeling like a cheap dirty whore.

:)[/quote]

If that is the reason why you train, then that’s awesome. You’re meeting your goals.

60

What I’ve come up with is, warm up with the empty bar as usual, 10 reps. Then do 5 reps ‘atg’ with 60,70,80,90 and 100. Then go to 120 and do my usual work out. My back and shoulders are coming on really well, and putting 120kg on my back is adding mass to my whole body and do not want to shrink/lose strength as mentioned. With the ‘warm up sets’ I will squat atg and when the weight gets abit heavier 90/100kg I can at least hit parallel.

So, with the 120kg ‘not quite parallel squats’, it would work to keep adding 1.25kg each side of the bar if I hit 5x5 every workout. The depth may not be there, but the development I am seeing from putting this load on my back is great. Also because I am putting my body under this load, the lower weight atg squatting should improve, along with the weight. That’s my thinking anyway.