Just watched Lee Haney’s training seminars. In the leg training seminar, he talked about how he always started his Leg Training with some really high rep,controlled Leg Extensions for several sets.He followed that up with Leg Pressing for a few sets, and THEN on the third set would do squats,and they were always very light weight.
To give you an idea,the guy is an 8X Mr.Olympia who had gargantuan legs,and he would never use over 225 on any Squats(nor Stiff Deadlifts for that matter).
His explanation seems to be that there really is just no point in it.I read in several interviews that using very heavy weights on Squats can just lead to injuries,bad form,ego,poor stimulus for the legs(since the lower back and glutes just do so much work),and more.
In all honesty, after having been a powerlifter for almost a year now, I honestly feel that everything he’s saying is true. My legs have had total garbage development from squats,even in the 385-405 marker. I have seen tons of guys with absolute gargantuan legs,feathered quads,and unreal leg development who don’t touch anything but the Leg Press,Leg Extensions/Curls and maybe a Stiff Deadlift or light hack squats here & there.
I want some honest opinions from you guys,because I feel I am living testimony myself to the validity of the statements that Lee Haney is making. I already know somebody will say: oh, well get your squat up to 405x20 instead of 1 and then you will have big legs.
Ok,that still isn’t a valid argument.8X Mr.Olympia used 2 plates…225 maximum and has bigger legs than you and I combined.People are developing champion physiques while using very light weight on this movement. I personally have gotten nothing but a big butt out of the squat,and a stronger lower back. I have a feeling I’m not the only one.
I also recall Schwarzenneger later in his career, and Dorian Yates, both 6-7X Mr.Olympia’s switching to lower weight squats ONLY on a smith machine, and even with their feet in front of them.
It seems like this has been a common,widely known principle.
I’d say it really depends on your goals. For bodybuilding, I’ve heard numerous times that the legs do respond better to higher reps at a lower (but still challenging) weight. It seems that the lower stress on the spine would also help with injury prevention or burnout.
Really though, I think it’s something you’ve got to figure out for yourself. Personally my legs always seemed to respond really well to squats, even though I suck at them. If your goal is big fucking legs and squats aren’t getting you there, then don’t squat. Really though, I don’t think you can have small legs if you squat a few hundred pounds for high reps all the time.
Depends on your mechanics, how you perform them, and what you want from them.
If you squat and you feel it mostly in your butt, odds are you’re not going to get huge quads from them. Squats are not necessary for big legs. Just like barbell benching isn’t necessary for a big chest, or deadlifting for a big back. For some it will work great to develop that muscle group, for others not so much.
Plus, squatting to move the most weight generally involves more glute/hamstring/low back then quads. So if your goal is big quads, aiming for max weight squats isn’t a great way to do it for most people.
Really though, I think it’s something you’ve got to figure out for yourself. Personally my legs always seemed to respond really well to squats, even though I suck at them. If your goal is big fucking legs and squats aren’t getting you there, then don’t squat. Really though, I don’t think you can have small legs if you squat a few hundred pounds for high reps all the time.[/quote]
This guy knows what he’s talking about
Obviously squats worked quite well for Ronnie Coleman and Tom Platz (and many more), but they didnt work for Dorian(and more as well) or in his Blood and guts video he would of been squatting!. Perhaps the beauty of bodybuilding is that there are so many methods that can work.
There certainly are pros that claim they didn’t squat much, and I suppose we must take them at their word. I personally have never known a lifter with big legs that didn’t squat; I beleive they are out there, like lotto winners, but in twenty-five years of training I have never met one personally.
I think the barbell back squat is like most other big compound exercises - deadlifts, barbell flat bench, barbell shoulder press, etc. - in that building a decent-to-above decent level of strength with them can be beneficial for a lot of people (especially beginners), but at a certain point in a lifter’s development, they need to start paying more attention to the cost:benefit ratio of those exercises.
Also, just like any other athlete, bodybuilders can reach a point where training for extra strength becomes a distraction from their bigger picture goal. A football player will only see so much on-field improvement bringing their bench press from 405 to 455, and a bodybuilder will only see so much added muscle bringing their squat from 495X3 to 515x3 (Yeah, I just called bodybuilders athletes. #IncomingShitstorm).
[quote]anonanon wrote:
Tom Platz seemed to like squats just fine.[/quote]
Possibly side-track, but it’s often overlooked that Tom Platz was not a successful bodybuilder. Popular and marketable, but in terms of on-stage success/pro contest wins, he missed the mark pretty regularly. So maybe we can admire his attitude, intensity, and guts, but maybe not hold his methods as “this is how a bodybuilder should train.”
you are comparing power lifting to bodybuilding. There are very thin people who can squat 405 for a max.
How is 405x20 not a valid argument for the effectiveness of squats? If you replaced squats with leg extensions and duplicated your exact program the last year intermingled with 1 rep maxes for a year, I doubt your quads would grow that much AND you would have knee problems.
It’s a compound exercise. Yes, you can replace squats. The problem is unless your doing deadlifting or some other form of squatting you need to replace it with at least 3 different exercises.
Leg Press is basically a squat minus the core and upperbody isometric work.
Bodybuilders 99% of the time tell you their most recent routine or what they think is right after a life time of different routines.
This is so important it doesn’t need a number
How do you use a routine with 5 sets of squats after a pre-exhaust to prove that squats are overrated? There are much easier exercises to do then squats for 5 sets at the end of your workout.
[quote]yolo84 wrote:
why don’t you just try it for 6 months and see if it gives you the results you are after[/quote]
I’m confused about what you mean.I have done them for almost 2 years,have put 3.5-4 plates on my back and had poverty legs the entire time except when I was training like a bodybuilder for a little while,and was doing tons of Leg Pressing/Curls/Extensions alongside squats.
[quote]PHGN wrote:
Raise your heels (oly shoes or 5 lb plate under), stay upright and go deep and your legs will work for sure.
[/quote]
I have heard about this. I was thinking that now I am going to start bodybuilding, perhaps I will put a 5 pound plate under my heels,and do them all front squat after they are pre-fatigued by leg extensions & leg press.
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
I think the barbell back squat is like most other big compound exercises - deadlifts, barbell flat bench, barbell shoulder press, etc. - in that building a decent-to-above decent level of strength with them can be beneficial for a lot of people (especially beginners), but at a certain point in a lifter’s development, they need to start paying more attention to the cost:benefit ratio of those exercises.
Also, just like any other athlete, bodybuilders can reach a point where training for extra strength becomes a distraction from their bigger picture goal. A football player will only see so much on-field improvement bringing their bench press from 405 to 455, and a bodybuilder will only see so much added muscle bringing their squat from 495X3 to 515x3 (Yeah, I just called bodybuilders athletes. #IncomingShitstorm).
[quote]anonanon wrote:
Tom Platz seemed to like squats just fine.[/quote]
Possibly side-track, but it’s often overlooked that Tom Platz was not a successful bodybuilder. Popular and marketable, but in terms of on-stage success/pro contest wins, he missed the mark pretty regularly. So maybe we can admire his attitude, intensity, and guts, but maybe not hold his methods as “this is how a bodybuilder should train.”[/quote]
I agree with everything you wrote.Also, there are so many skinny people on Youtube who don’t even look like they lift that are squatting 500 pounds+. This is why I’m having a hard time believing that if I added just another 100 pounds to my squat, I would somehow magically suddenly get good quads. Perhaps it just depends on people’s body mechanics; it seems a lot of “short” lifters get great quads out of squats alone.
Yeah Platz didn’t do too well…he just had great legs,and ironically was also not over 6 feet tall…pretty sure he was a shorty.
you are comparing power lifting to bodybuilding. There are very thin people who can squat 405 for a max.
How is 405x20 not a valid argument for the effectiveness of squats? If you replaced squats with leg extensions and duplicated your exact program the last year intermingled with 1 rep maxes for a year, I doubt your quads would grow that much AND you would have knee problems.
It’s a compound exercise. Yes, you can replace squats. The problem is unless your doing deadlifting or some other form of squatting you need to replace it with at least 3 different exercises.
Leg Press is basically a squat minus the core and upperbody isometric work.
Bodybuilders 99% of the time tell you their most recent routine or what they think is right after a life time of different routines.
This is so important it doesn’t need a number
How do you use a routine with 5 sets of squats after a pre-exhaust to prove that squats are overrated? There are much easier exercises to do then squats for 5 sets at the end of your workout.[/quote]
1)That’s my point.There are tons of people who can squat 400-500+ for a max that don’t even look like they lift.They’re all over youtube and at my gym. Actually, I even know a few guys who are my friends that bench 350x5 and have insane chest development,but have 450x5+ squats with nonexistent chicken legs. It just seems way too individual.
2)Leg Press instead and they would have blown up like dynamite. Guaranteed.
4)Yes, once again my point. You would be able to work on your legs without being hindered by about 10 other factors
I don’t even understand what you are saying in your last sentence.
There are more benefits to squats than just thigh mass, these heavy compound movements tax the entire nervous system and contribute to gains across the entire body. The key is to use proper form, so please no 5lb discs under the heels, padding on the bar, coming down over the ankles etc.
IMO Squats are a mainstay and should be performed once a week with a weight that allows you to just about achieve the rep total.
PS can’t believe anyone would diss Tom Platz, his leg over-development has not been matched - run like the wind baby.
[quote]fisch wrote:
Depends on your mechanics, how you perform them, and what you want from them.
If you squat and you feel it mostly in your butt, odds are you’re not going to get huge quads from them. Squats are not necessary for big legs. Just like barbell benching isn’t necessary for a big chest, or deadlifting for a big back. For some it will work great to develop that muscle group, for others not so much.
Plus, squatting to move the most weight generally involves more glute/hamstring/low back then quads. So if your goal is big quads, aiming for max weight squats isn’t a great way to do it for most people.[/quote]
I think this hits the nail on the head. Whatever muscle groups dominate the movement for a particular movement are the ones that will grow. This applies with any exercise, not just squats.
[quote]yolo84 wrote:
why don’t you just try it for 6 months and see if it gives you the results you are after[/quote]
I’m confused about what you mean.I have done them for almost 2 years,have put 3.5-4 plates on my back and had poverty legs the entire time except when I was training like a bodybuilder for a little while,and was doing tons of Leg Pressing/Curls/Extensions alongside squats.[/quote]
If you think Haney’s methods are more productive than what you have been doing why not just adopt it yourself and see if it gives you the results you want
olympic back squat form with raised heels for high reps. do these till you can hit at least 1.5x BW for 20+ reps. If your legs haven’t grown, squats don’t work for you
you are comparing power lifting to bodybuilding. There are very thin people who can squat 405 for a max.
How is 405x20 not a valid argument for the effectiveness of squats? If you replaced squats with leg extensions and duplicated your exact program the last year intermingled with 1 rep maxes for a year, I doubt your quads would grow that much AND you would have knee problems.
It’s a compound exercise. Yes, you can replace squats. The problem is unless your doing deadlifting or some other form of squatting you need to replace it with at least 3 different exercises.
Leg Press is basically a squat minus the core and upperbody isometric work.
Bodybuilders 99% of the time tell you their most recent routine or what they think is right after a life time of different routines.
This is so important it doesn’t need a number
How do you use a routine with 5 sets of squats after a pre-exhaust to prove that squats are overrated? There are much easier exercises to do then squats for 5 sets at the end of your workout.[/quote]
1)That’s my point.There are tons of people who can squat 400-500+ for a max that don’t even look like they lift.They’re all over youtube and at my gym. Actually, I even know a few guys who are my friends that bench 350x5 and have insane chest development,but have 450x5+ squats with nonexistent chicken legs. It just seems way too individual.
2)Leg Press instead and they would have blown up like dynamite. Guaranteed.
4)Yes, once again my point. You would be able to work on your legs without being hindered by about 10 other factors
I don’t even understand what you are saying in your last sentence.[/quote]
The thread topic is squats are overrated for bodybuilding. I’m saying that everything you listed says otherwise.
1)Yes you say this but you are using the exercise in a powerlifting manner that doesn’t reduce the exercise, that means the training protocol you use is faulty.
Guaranteed? Then prove it. Use the same reps and sets you did for squats, and eliminate squats.
The last sentence what is there not to understand… Again you said Squats are overrated. Then you list a 8x Olympia routine with squats in it as proof that it’s overrated. That doesn’t make sense.
