Squats Beneficial For Fighting?

Training
101

[quote]Ckenney wrote:
If an individual does not have high enough levels of strength, power output, speed, and other physical attributes, he/she will not be able to perform the sport specific movements to his/her maximum potential. Once the athlete hits a certain point where the benefits of increased physical attributes are not necessarily significant, then the focus can shift almost completely to sport-specific movements. Obviously this depends on the individual, level of play, etc. , but it is fair to say that most individuals are not going to reach their physical peak within their sport. While I agree that training movements is extremely important, so is training the physical attributes that the athletes possess. Like I said before, most fighters train plenty of movements that may not be used within a fight. [/quote]

Dude. Seriously. If the athletes diet, routines and rest is properly managed he may not plateau or some time before he reaches that point where the ‘benefits’ are not significant. Tell me then when he will get around to actually hitting a bag? Sparring? er… basic pad drills? You keep calling him a fighter, but if he trains how you want him to train he may as well get drafted into the nfl. Cos boxers are gonna mess him up much worse than a linebacker could. And considering how little cardio you advocate, breaks for bud commercials could save his life.

102

[quote]Pigeonkak wrote:

[quote]Ckenney wrote:
If an individual does not have high enough levels of strength, power output, speed, and other physical attributes, he/she will not be able to perform the sport specific movements to his/her maximum potential. Once the athlete hits a certain point where the benefits of increased physical attributes are not necessarily significant, then the focus can shift almost completely to sport-specific movements. Obviously this depends on the individual, level of play, etc. , but it is fair to say that most individuals are not going to reach their physical peak within their sport. While I agree that training movements is extremely important, so is training the physical attributes that the athletes possess. Like I said before, most fighters train plenty of movements that may not be used within a fight. [/quote]

Dude. Seriously. If the athletes diet, routines and rest is properly managed he may not plateau or some time before he reaches that point where the ‘benefits’ are not significant. Tell me then when he will get around to actually hitting a bag? Sparring? er… basic pad drills? You keep calling him a fighter, but if he trains how you want him to train he may as well get drafted into the nfl. Cos boxers are gonna mess him up much worse than a linebacker could. And considering how little cardio you advocate, breaks for bud commercials could save his life.[/quote]

I lol’d

103

[quote]Ckenney wrote:
nce the athlete hits a certain point where the benefits of increased physical attributes are not necessarily significant, then the focus can shift almost completely to sport-specific movements. . [/quote]

Oh… so THEN we can learn how to box?

I’m actually not trying to be negative, but this is one of the worst, and most inappropriate posts, that I’ve ever seen on the combat forum.

It’s reasoning like this, repeated by people without experience, that pushes boxing trainers away from even THINKING about implementing weightlifting into their fighters’ workouts.

104

And I agree with your overall point that time and energy are better spent on conditioning and technical refinement, especially for boxing. I just wanted to point out that there is actually a point where pure raw strength can actually defeat technique/leverage and that for grappling (like you said), strength can be of much more benefit).

Also, I understand what you mean by not needing a lot of force to make a skilled movement effective, but there is a time when being able to put more force into that skilled movement would be beneficial. In combat sports where there are weight classes it’s less important; in a fight with no such limitations I can come in handy.

105

Pigeonkak, FigthinIrish28, you’re taking what I am saying out of context. I am saying that the importance of strength training decreases once an athlete hits a certain point physically. This is the case with most sports. I NEVER said don’t train boxing during this time period. It actually was never suggested.

Most athletes will plateau at certain points in their training in various areas, which makes working on other areas often helpful in breaking the plateau. And there is PLENTY of time to train fighting, weight training, and diet well in the day. If you are spending 8hrs a day hitting things, you are probably doing a bit much.

Look, I agree with everyone that technique and conditioning are extremely important in fighting/boxing/MMA, probably the most important aspects, but to say that squatting and its variations will not benefit most fighters is overlooking a group of exercises that benefit the body/performance in more ways than just lifting weight up and down. Not to mention that strength/power are very important aspects of conditioning.

106

[quote]Ckenney wrote:
Pigeonkak, FigthinIrish28, you’re taking what I am saying out of context. I am saying that the importance of strength training decreases once an athlete hits a certain point physically. This is the case with most sports. I NEVER said don’t train boxing during this time period. It actually was never suggested.

Most athletes will plateau at certain points in their training in various areas, which makes working on other areas often helpful in breaking the plateau. And there is PLENTY of time to train fighting, weight training, and diet well in the day. If you are spending 8hrs a day hitting things, you are probably doing a bit much.

Look, I agree with everyone that technique and conditioning are extremely important in fighting/boxing/MMA, probably the most important aspects, but to say that squatting and its variations will not benefit most fighters is overlooking a group of exercises that benefit the body/performance in more ways than just lifting weight up and down. Not to mention that strength/power are very important aspects of conditioning. [/quote]

The fact that you can say ‘technique and conditioning… are probably the most important aspects’, suggests that you don’t have the first clue what you are talking about. At 185lbs I have boxed the living daylights out of guys who are 210-220lbs. I have no idea what any of them lifted, but I’m pretty confident any guy with 25-35lbs of lean muscle on me can out-lift me on any exercise he chooses. Is being big and strong an advantage in an anything goes bar room brawl? Undoubtedly. Does it make a blind bit of fucking difference in a ring? Not even a little bit.

You say there is plenty of time to train fighting, weight training and diet well in a day. That may be the case if you are a sports science student where dividing up your priorities means nipping down the road from the lab to the rough parts of town, but for most boxers (real boxers) that is not real life. For example, as a kid, age 12-18, I would get up at 6, do my roadwork, come home, eat, shower, go to school, come back from school, do my homework, eat dinner, go to the gym, come home, go to bed. As an adult when I still competed, age 18-22, I would get up at 6, do my roadwork, eat breakfast, do work (either at uni or job) come home at about 6, cook my dinner, hit the gym between 7-9/930, come home, do real life things that had to get done, sleep, rinse and repeat.

I bet I’d struggle to bench 60 odd kg, and yet I have a KO rate of better than 65% in the ams, and I bet most of those were against guys who out lifted me easy, and I know plenty of kids the same. Whatever your textbooks tell you, there is only one way to understand the sweet science, and that’s to get in the ring.

107

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]Ckenney wrote:
Pigeonkak, FigthinIrish28, you’re taking what I am saying out of context. I am saying that the importance of strength training decreases once an athlete hits a certain point physically. This is the case with most sports. I NEVER said don’t train boxing during this time period. It actually was never suggested.

Most athletes will plateau at certain points in their training in various areas, which makes working on other areas often helpful in breaking the plateau. And there is PLENTY of time to train fighting, weight training, and diet well in the day. If you are spending 8hrs a day hitting things, you are probably doing a bit much.

Look, I agree with everyone that technique and conditioning are extremely important in fighting/boxing/MMA, probably the most important aspects, but to say that squatting and its variations will not benefit most fighters is overlooking a group of exercises that benefit the body/performance in more ways than just lifting weight up and down. Not to mention that strength/power are very important aspects of conditioning. [/quote]

The fact that you can say ‘technique and conditioning… are probably the most important aspects’, suggests that you don’t have the first clue what you are talking about. At 185lbs I have boxed the living daylights out of guys who are 210-220lbs. I have no idea what any of them lifted, but I’m pretty confident any guy with 25-35lbs of lean muscle on me can out-lift me on any exercise he chooses. Is being big and strong an advantage in an anything goes bar room brawl? Undoubtedly. Does it make a blind bit of fucking difference in a ring? Not even a little bit.

You say there is plenty of time to train fighting, weight training and diet well in a day. That may be the case if you are a sports science student where dividing up your priorities means nipping down the road from the lab to the rough parts of town, but for most boxers (real boxers) that is not real life. For example, as a kid, age 12-18, I would get up at 6, do my roadwork, come home, eat, shower, go to school, come back from school, do my homework, eat dinner, go to the gym, come home, go to bed. As an adult when I still competed, age 18-22, I would get up at 6, do my roadwork, eat breakfast, do work (either at uni or job) come home at about 6, cook my dinner, hit the gym between 7-9/930, come home, do real life things that had to get done, sleep, rinse and repeat.

I bet I’d struggle to bench 60 odd kg, and yet I have a KO rate of better than 65% in the ams, and I bet most of those were against guys who out lifted me easy, and I know plenty of kids the same. Whatever your textbooks tell you, there is only one way to understand the sweet science, and that’s to get in the ring. [/quote]

But London, just imagine how high your KO rate would be if you squatted!

x2 on the whole “Real Life things”. I think a good 'ol country saying goes like this: “you can’t ride two horses at the same time.” Cowboy common sense for you.

108

You just proved the point that you were trying to disprove guy. If technique and all aspects of conditioning are not the most important and you say these guys were bigger and stronger than you, then how did you beat them? Heart? Luck? I doubt you KO them all with your heart and desire to win, and unless you are really lucky, doubt that did it too.

I have a feeling your technique and conditioning probably did it. I also have a feeling that you are a naturally gifted fighter. You’re probably pretty damn fast as is with a good pop to your punch. You probably have a solid coach and train your ass off. And you probably have not reached your full potential physically!

Don’t get me wrong, plenty of people can be successful without much weight training. I just want my athletes to be as successful as they can possibly be. On a separate note, heart probably is the most important attribute in a fighter, maybe besides conditioning. That technique doesn’t matter too much if you’re gassed and don’t have the ability to dig deep.

Also, I probably have a busier schedule than 90% of people I’ve met who train (somewhere in the hundreds), so again, assumptions are silly. Improved rate of force production on the speed side of the spectrum is going to benefit a speed sport like boxing (plyo-metrics, medicine ball work, jump squats,etc.). Strength-speed will be more beneficial in MMA, raw strength more beneficial in wrestling. Everyone benefits from mobility/stability and regenerative work. All of these things part of a properly put together powerlifting program.

109

whoops, mixed threads there. Final point on squats - they’re awesome, obviously don’t just squat, but to generate explosive power, you gotta have a base to do so and nothing builds a good base like squatting and its many variations

110

LOL…Who here would rather go back to talking about Nazis and Turks in Germany?

111

[quote]Ckenney wrote:
whoops, mixed threads there. Final point on squats - they’re awesome, obviously don’t just squat, but to generate explosive power, you gotta have a base to do so and nothing builds a good base like squatting and its many variations[/quote]

Actually, I agree with you. Squats are amazing for everything. Ever since I started doing heavy box squats, my shits have been more explosive. My restroom sessions have been more powerful movements. My restroom GPP (gross poop programme) causes people in the street to stare. And that’s not just because I’m having a shit in the street. I don’t get gassed as much anymore either. It’s less gas and more solid force now. I owe this to you CKenney.

112

You know, as dead, decomposing and reanimated as this particular horse is, I’d be curious if anybody has ever taken a group of people who already know how to punch well (i.e. amateur boxers?) measured their baseline power in all the basic punches then running them through an intelligent 6 month+/- PL style program to increase their max squat/bench/dead and then re-tested them to see if there is any corresponding increase in punching power.

Of course this wouldn’t effect timing, distance etc, etc, but it might be interesting to see if there would be any appreciable carry over to raw power production. I’m not at all sure that there would be, but it might make for an interesting experiment if it was done well.

113

[quote]batman730 wrote:
You know, as dead, decomposing and reanimated as this particular horse is, I’d be curious if anybody has ever taken a group of people who already know how to punch well (i.e. amateur boxers?) measured their baseline power in all the basic punches then running them through an intelligent 6 month+/- PL style program to increase their max squat/bench/dead and then re-tested them to see if there is any corresponding increase in punching power.

Of course this wouldn’t effect timing, distance etc, etc, but it might be interesting to see if there would be any appreciable carry over to raw power production. I’m not at all sure that there would be, but it might make for an interesting experiment if it was done well.[/quote]

I think you just gave CKenney a great idea for his final year research assignment.

114

[quote]Pigeonkak wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:
You know, as dead, decomposing and reanimated as this particular horse is, I’d be curious if anybody has ever taken a group of people who already know how to punch well (i.e. amateur boxers?) measured their baseline power in all the basic punches then running them through an intelligent 6 month+/- PL style program to increase their max squat/bench/dead and then re-tested them to see if there is any corresponding increase in punching power.

Of course this wouldn’t effect timing, distance etc, etc, but it might be interesting to see if there would be any appreciable carry over to raw power production. I’m not at all sure that there would be, but it might make for an interesting experiment if it was done well.[/quote]

I think you just gave CKenney a great idea for his final year research assignment.[/quote]

Thought maybe…

115

[quote]batman730 wrote:
You know, as dead, decomposing and reanimated as this particular horse is, I’d be curious if anybody has ever taken a group of people who already know how to punch well (i.e. amateur boxers?) measured their baseline power in all the basic punches then running them through an intelligent 6 month+/- PL style program to increase their max squat/bench/dead and then re-tested them to see if there is any corresponding increase in punching power.

Of course this wouldn’t effect timing, distance etc, etc, but it might be interesting to see if there would be any appreciable carry over to raw power production. I’m not at all sure that there would be, but it might make for an interesting experiment if it was done well.[/quote]

While it’s an interesting concept, the results would be clouded by the fact that with an additional 6 months of training they probably would’ve become better punchers regardless. Especially when we’re talking about amateurs who still probably have a lot of room to grow with regards to technique and explosiveness.

116

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:
You know, as dead, decomposing and reanimated as this particular horse is, I’d be curious if anybody has ever taken a group of people who already know how to punch well (i.e. amateur boxers?) measured their baseline power in all the basic punches then running them through an intelligent 6 month+/- PL style program to increase their max squat/bench/dead and then re-tested them to see if there is any corresponding increase in punching power.

Of course this wouldn’t effect timing, distance etc, etc, but it might be interesting to see if there would be any appreciable carry over to raw power production. I’m not at all sure that there would be, but it might make for an interesting experiment if it was done well.[/quote]

While it’s an interesting concept, the results would be clouded by the fact that with an additional 6 months of training they probably would’ve become better punchers regardless. Especially when we’re talking about amateurs who still probably have a lot of room to grow with regards to technique and explosiveness.[/quote]

Yeah, I’m not sure who would be the best group to sample or how exactly you would go about setting it up so the results would have significance/validity. As with most studies there would likely be problems built right into the experiment. It’d just be interesting to see some empirical data to corroborate/refute all the opinion-based and anecdotal stuff that gets tossed back and forth on this topic.

117

Someone shoot up into this tree, either me or this thread needs to die.

118

[quote]idaho wrote:
Someone shoot up into this tree, either me or this thread needs to die.[/quote]

I’m actually sitting here with an elephant gun and a bottle of whiskey, I’d be happy to oblige before I turn the gun on myself.

119

[quote]batman730 wrote:
You know, as dead, decomposing and reanimated as this particular horse is, I’d be curious if anybody has ever taken a group of people who already know how to punch well (i.e. amateur boxers?) measured their baseline power in all the basic punches then running them through an intelligent 6 month+/- PL style program to increase their max squat/bench/dead and then re-tested them to see if there is any corresponding increase in punching power.

Of course this wouldn’t effect timing, distance etc, etc, but it might be interesting to see if there would be any appreciable carry over to raw power production. I’m not at all sure that there would be, but it might make for an interesting experiment if it was done well.[/quote]

These kind of experiments have been done at many boxing gyms around the world from Soviet Union to Cuba… and the United States of America for many decades, although without the real intention to do them… Everyone who believes in the “benefits” of heavy weight lifting just have to stop fighting theoretical fights at their keyboards and go to a real boxing gym where all the competitive boxers train and spar. Start training and sparring with the intension to have an amateur fight in a near future… and it’s not going to take long to discover how it actually works, and those “scientific” training theories will be changed for the realistic ones.

120

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:
Someone shoot up into this tree, either me or this thread needs to die.[/quote]

I’m actually sitting here with an elephant gun and a bottle of whiskey, I’d be happy to oblige before I turn the gun on myself.[/quote]

LOL, just what I needed, its a bitch of day over here.