[quote]Bangerangg18 wrote:
Mike Tysons hit pretty hard and he squats pretty heavy[/quote]
Dude didn’t hit up weight training until post-prison.
He was also 220lbs and had been trained obsessively to be a explosive and ACCURATE puncher, not to mention his genetic makeup probably gives him some sort of fantastic fast twitch fiber dominance.
I’m betting that has more to do with his power than squats ever did.
[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
[quote]Bangerangg18 wrote:
Mike Tysons hit pretty hard and he squats pretty heavy[/quote]
Dude didn’t hit up weight training until post-prison.
He was also 220lbs and had been trained obsessively to be a explosive and ACCURATE puncher, not to mention his genetic makeup probably gives him some sort of fantastic fast twitch fiber dominance.
I’m betting that has more to do with his power than squats ever did.[/quote]
I’ll bet all my possessions that Mike Tyson aged 18, completely untrained with weights, could lift more on his first time in the gym on every lift than I could if I trained for 3-4 years under a guy like Louie Simmonds. Even in the world of professional sportsmen, Tysonis part of the top 1% of genetically gifted humans. The guy was over 200lbs at single digit bodyfat, at 15 yearsold. Most guys in the bodybuilding forum will not have those stats after a lifetime of obsessing over getting to be that big.
[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
[quote]Bangerangg18 wrote:
Mike Tysons hit pretty hard and he squats pretty heavy[/quote]
Dude didn’t hit up weight training until post-prison.
He was also 220lbs and had been trained obsessively to be a explosive and ACCURATE puncher, not to mention his genetic makeup probably gives him some sort of fantastic fast twitch fiber dominance.
I’m betting that has more to do with his power than squats ever did.[/quote]
Yup.
Do squats build core stability? Yes. Do squats increase force production? In the lower body particularly at the hips if squatting correctly. Does power punching come from floor? Try punching hard without a solid base. Very few exercises are directly transferable, but squats definitely help. And you definitely dig your feet/use your hips when power punching.
Trust me, I have a very good understanding of biomechanics. One of my favorite things to do is to flick out a couple BS jabs to draw my opponent in and dig a good one while being chased down. I honestly have no idea which boxers/kick-boxers are heavy squatters, but I can guarantee that they do some sort of leg strengthening exercises and by far the best is the squat and its many variations.
As far as injuries go, as far as you have the mobility, squatting is going to do nothing but help PREVENT injury through strengthening tendons/ligaments.
That all being said, there are other ways to achieve great core stability and ligament/tendon strength, but squatting is a great way to achieve it.
Gotta look at it from a bigger picture than just direct correlation. I’m talking about having a healthy, strong, stabile athlete which = better performance/longer career etc.
As for MMA, squats are a must. Takedowns, more power punching vs the volume in striking sports, etc. Also, fighting someone who has legs the size of their torso is a little tough on a man mentally…St. Pierre is a perfect example. Adding his PL regimen to his training has put him on another level. That and gymnastics…
And I’m not arguing that some of the best def squatted heavy, just that it will help the majority of combat athletes
This is not related to weight lifting but do you know who he practices his JKD under? Jeet Kune Do is a martial art strictly for the street and sounds kind of odd to mix with something like BJJ
[quote]Ckenney wrote:
Do squats build core stability? Yes. Do squats increase force production? In the lower body particularly at the hips if squatting correctly. Does power punching come from floor? Try punching hard without a solid base. Very few exercises are directly transferable, but squats definitely help. And you definitely dig your feet/use your hips when power punching.
Trust me, I have a very good understanding of biomechanics. One of my favorite things to do is to flick out a couple BS jabs to draw my opponent in and dig a good one while being chased down. I honestly have no idea which boxers/kick-boxers are heavy squatters, but I can guarantee that they do some sort of leg strengthening exercises and by far the best is the squat and its many variations.
As far as injuries go, as far as you have the mobility, squatting is going to do nothing but help PREVENT injury through strengthening tendons/ligaments.
That all being said, there are other ways to achieve great core stability and ligament/tendon strength, but squatting is a great way to achieve it.
Gotta look at it from a bigger picture than just direct correlation. I’m talking about having a healthy, strong, stabile athlete which = better performance/longer career etc.
As for MMA, squats are a must. Takedowns, more power punching vs the volume in striking sports, etc. Also, fighting someone who has legs the size of their torso is a little tough on a man mentally…St. Pierre is a perfect example. Adding his PL regimen to his training has put him on another level. That and gymnastics…[/quote]
Sure Georges does it. Belcher too. But I can spout of quite a few successful fighters that don’t, so I wouldn’t say it’s a “must” as you put it.
[quote]cstratton2 wrote:
This is not related to weight lifting but do you know who he practices his JKD under? Jeet Kune Do is a martial art strictly for the street and sounds kind of odd to mix with something like BJJ [/quote]
You don’t understand what JKD is if you think that. Also, originally BJJ was a much more brutal and comprehensive martial art, it is only since the boom of the sport of submission grappling that BJJ has become synonymous with sporty BJJ. Bruce actually made numerous notes on Jujutsu and trained regularly with Wally Jay (Small Circle JJ founder), Hayward Nishioka and Gene Labell (both highly successful Judo players). Had he had access to the Gracies or BJJ in general you can bet that he would have trained in it.
Heck, just look at the fight choreography from Enter The Dragon (which Bruce was responsible for), and you’ll see a crucifix and an arm bar (there is actually a picture of Bruce putting Yang Tze/Bolo Yeung in an arm bar, who is putting John Saxon in an arm bar during filming). Clearly this speaks to the notion that he had studied these skills and felt they were worthy of showcasing.
Jay’s book should be required reading right alongside “Tao of Jeet Kune Do.”
[quote]Brian14 wrote:
I am asking on behalf of a friend of mine. He wanted to get stronger and look better, while also training for Jeet Kune Do and BJJ twice a week. I put him on starting strength. He went from weighing 135 to 155 after about 4 months and got his squat up to about 225x3x5. He now says he wants to train for aesthetic purposes because he is satisfied with his strength. He also doesnt want his legs to get much bigger.(I dont agree with either of these things but its his decision.) H
e’s not looking to gain a ton of weight because he wants to compete in the future and stay in a somewhat light weight class. I would like to instruct him in continuing to to compound movements, but I was thinking of getting rid of the squats. I dont really think they make your leg kicks more powerful(although I could be wrong, someone could correct me on this) and they could be putting on muscle and weight where it isnt neccessary. Thoughts?
Edit: Hes 17[/quote]
Being strong is a good thing. Squats are beneficial if the support good lower body mechanics. In other words, to be a good fighter, he’s got to be able to move and move well. Doing squats poorly will screw up his game pretty well. Going heavy with poor form means he will lose ability. Powerful kicks might be a result of his training if his lower body mechanics are improving. I often put guys I coach on squats (though deads are more beneficial overall for this, IMHO).
Take away point: Yes, by all means squat – right.
Make sure that the form and mechanics are excellent. Switch it up with front squats (which is, actually, a different exercise). And unilateral variations (bulgarians, lunges, etc. since he need unilateral strength.) He should be able to do ATG right to be an elite fighter. If he’s more interested in load vs. mechanics, he will throw his game off what it should/could be. Being able to squat a bunch of weight badly can actually predispose him to injury if he’s a grappler (e.g. he tries that throw with an unruly opponent from deeper than he is used to and blows out a knee or his back). So training for aesthetic purposes can work, just don’t mess the rest of it up if he wants to continue doing martial arts.
Just my thoughts…
– jj
[quote]Ckenney wrote:
Do squats build core stability? Yes. Do squats increase force production? In the lower body particularly at the hips if squatting correctly. Does power punching come from floor? Try punching hard without a solid base. Very few exercises are directly transferable, but squats definitely help. And you definitely dig your feet/use your hips when power punching.
Trust me, I have a very good understanding of biomechanics. One of my favorite things to do is to flick out a couple BS jabs to draw my opponent in and dig a good one while being chased down. I honestly have no idea which boxers/kick-boxers are heavy squatters, but I can guarantee that they do some sort of leg strengthening exercises and by far the best is the squat and its many variations.
[/quote]
There’s a lot of illogical jumps in there, and as a guy who has spent the last three years throwing 800 or a thousand punches a day, I still think this is wrong wholeheartedly, and that a trip to any boxing gym easily proves it.
And really, if you’re punching in a way that makes squats come into play, I’ve got to question your “knowledge” of biomechanics as well haha. There’s one punch where squats MIGHT help, and that’s that old Arturo Gatti uppercut where his back was against the ropes and he would literally squat down, put his ass on the bottom rope, and pretty much jump into an uppercut. That is IT.
Other than that, the biggest punchers do not squat and there’s a reason for that.
Again, I’m only talking striking here, not MMA.
[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
please why does no one consider the fact that heavier weight classes hit harder because they are HEAVIER not because they can put up bigger numbers in the weight room?[/quote]
Exactly.
To me, you’re pushing to two totally different planes. With a squat, you’re pushing towards the ceiling, with a punch, you’re whipping to your front. While weight itself is going to make you punch harder, the strength in your legs doesn’t matter for shit - if anything, it’s the momentum you build up in that back-to-front motion, combined with proper technique and appropriate range, that are going to make you hit hard.
I can’t the scientific names for all these motions and ligaments and all that shit, but I sure as hell know what I see. And I’ve NEVER seen a guy punch significantly harder because he started doing squats.
[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
[quote]Bangerangg18 wrote:
Mike Tysons hit pretty hard and he squats pretty heavy[/quote]
Dude didn’t hit up weight training until post-prison.
He was also 220lbs and had been trained obsessively to be a explosive and ACCURATE puncher, not to mention his genetic makeup probably gives him some sort of fantastic fast twitch fiber dominance.
I’m betting that has more to do with his power than squats ever did.[/quote]
I’ll bet all my possessions that Mike Tyson aged 18, completely untrained with weights, could lift more on his first time in the gym on every lift than I could if I trained for 3-4 years under a guy like Louie Simmonds. Even in the world of professional sportsmen, Tysonis part of the top 1% of genetically gifted humans. The guy was over 200lbs at single digit bodyfat, at 15 yearsold. Most guys in the bodybuilding forum will not have those stats after a lifetime of obsessing over getting to be that big. [/quote]
You are most likely right, guys like Tyson, Foreman, Tua, and Marciano would probably be stronger and hit harder than the vast majority of the population had they never trained period. They are the genetic elite.
However, I actually think that’s a bad reason to use then as examples to disprove the potential benefits of strength training to punching power. Personally I’m less interested in how the genetic elite who would have hot hard no matter what trained for power than I am in how someone who was not a naturally gifted power puncher maximized their punching power.
In my experience strength training (along with improvements in technique of course) does aid in the development of power striking (if done correctly). However, it is also true that the ability to generate maximal power is a very different thing from having the timing, distancing, accuracy and strategical skill to apply that power in real time against a fully resisting skilled opponent. That takes a much, much longer time to develop, and is why most serious boxers spend the majority of their time training boxing skills rather than strength training. The other issue is of course weight classes.
So I think it’s important to distinguish that training to be able to develop absolute maximum punching power is not the same thing as training to be the most effective boxer.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Ckenney wrote:
Do squats build core stability? Yes. Do squats increase force production? In the lower body particularly at the hips if squatting correctly. Does power punching come from floor? Try punching hard without a solid base. Very few exercises are directly transferable, but squats definitely help. And you definitely dig your feet/use your hips when power punching.
Trust me, I have a very good understanding of biomechanics. One of my favorite things to do is to flick out a couple BS jabs to draw my opponent in and dig a good one while being chased down. I honestly have no idea which boxers/kick-boxers are heavy squatters, but I can guarantee that they do some sort of leg strengthening exercises and by far the best is the squat and its many variations.
[/quote]
There’s a lot of illogical jumps in there, and as a guy who has spent the last three years throwing 800 or a thousand punches a day, I still think this is wrong wholeheartedly, and that a trip to any boxing gym easily proves it.
And really, if you’re punching in a way that makes squats come into play, I’ve got to question your “knowledge” of biomechanics as well haha. There’s one punch where squats MIGHT help, and that’s that old Arturo Gatti uppercut where his back was against the ropes and he would literally squat down, put his ass on the bottom rope, and pretty much jump into an uppercut. That is IT.
Other than that, the biggest punchers do not squat and there’s a reason for that.
Again, I’m only talking striking here, not MMA. [/quote]
I like the point you make about the punch whipping forward, and being in a different movement pattern. Because that’s true. Pivoting at the feet, hips, a twist of the shoulders, an extension of the arm, rotation of the fist counter clockwise, follow through. That’s the generalline of motion for my own right punch and the mechanics speak for themselves.
No offense CK, but I think you may be the only guy in this thread that thinks the squat is a brilliant exercise for boxing and kicking. However, we all agree that MMA, BJJ and I’d like to add pole dancing, benefit from squats. And Martin Rooney would recommend a good hamstring workout to supplement that I’m sure.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
please why does no one consider the fact that heavier weight classes hit harder because they are HEAVIER not because they can put up bigger numbers in the weight room?[/quote]
Exactly.
To me, you’re pushing to two totally different planes. With a squat, you’re pushing towards the ceiling, with a punch, you’re whipping to your front. While weight itself is going to make you punch harder, the strength in your legs doesn’t matter for shit - if anything, it’s the momentum you build up in that back-to-front motion, combined with proper technique and appropriate range, that are going to make you hit hard.
I can’t the scientific names for all these motions and ligaments and all that shit, but I sure as hell know what I see. And I’ve NEVER seen a guy punch significantly harder because he started doing squats.[/quote]
Here’s where we get technical…
Momentum = speed * mass
One study I read took a bunch of boxers and had them hit a force plate as hard as they could. They also measured the speed of the punch (high speed camera) and guess what they found? That the mass of the punch on very good boxers was almost equal to their arm weight! (momentum/speed = mass, then measure how heavy the arm is & compare.)
Translation: Boxers hit with their arms. All of them. Excellent boxers had nearly 100% of the arm mass in the strike. Nobody exceeded the arm mass in striking momentum.
Good boxers can get enough core stabilization to maximize this. The entire trick with punching harder is to go as fast as possible, keeping the core solidly behind the strike. Since even a little chaos where the punch lands can take away a lot of power, this is a lot trickier than it sounds, as any boxer (yes, I used to box and loved it) can attest.This is a timing issue so that at the moment of impact, the core is really solid. A split second either way and you lose power. Generating raw power with limbs will only help if the limbs get bigger AND you can control them. More, say, pushing power with punching won’t really patch poor core coordination (though it can give mediocre people a hobby while they suck. Oops, did I say that out loud?) It might, however, help to avoid injuries, so pushups, pullups, &c., &c., are good requirements to keep in your training.
Therefore, do squats help your punch with leg drive? Not per se, but the core stabilization involved in a good squat can have carry over. As I said in another post, I coach people to do a bout of squat training (standard of 3 - 6 months, then they are done), with an aim to improving mechanics, not raw power generation because of the timing involved in good striking (or throwing, or anything else in a martial art, for that matter). Only way to get good timing is to practice timing. Being freakishly strong can win the oddball bout but IMHO isn’t worth the training time enough to have as a regular part of the syllabus.
– jj
Edit: trying to track down the article, but I do recall the punch tested was a cross only.
JJ-dude - would you agree, however, that there’s a point of diminishing returns with squats, and that it arrives fairly quickly if boxing is your game?
If a guy can squat his bodyweight maybe five or ten times, and does maniacal ab work like most boxers do combined with tons of heavy bag work - isn’t that pretty much as much core stabilization as he’s going to need?
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
Here’s where we get technical…
Momentum = speed * mass
One study I read took a bunch of boxers and had them hit a force plate as hard as they could. They also measured the speed of the punch (high speed camera) and guess what they found? That the mass of the punch on very good boxers was almost equal to their arm weight! (momentum/speed = mass, then measure how heavy the arm is & compare.)
Translation: Boxers hit with their arms. All of them. Excellent boxers had nearly 100% of the arm mass in the strike. Nobody exceeded the arm mass in striking momentum.
– jj[/quote]
Can you explain this a little more thoroughly for those of us who spent science classes smoking cigarettes in the bathroom?
[quote]jj-dude wrote:]One study I read took a bunch of boxers and had them hit a force plate as hard as they could. They also measured the speed of the punch (high speed camera) and guess what they found? That the mass of the punch on very good boxers was almost equal to their arm weight! (momentum/speed = mass, then measure how heavy the arm is & compare.)
Translation: Boxers hit with their arms. All of them. Excellent boxers had nearly 100% of the arm mass in the strike. Nobody exceeded the arm mass in striking momentum.[/quote]
I can see the next thread coming up: ‘Biceps curls beneficial for fighting?’
… Sorry, just my two cents.
The hardest hitter I’ve ever had to deal with was a light weight. Ironically, the ones who were a lot easier to survive than I would have thought were slow heavies, and one of them did loads of weight training.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
JJ-dude - would you agree, however, that there’s a point of diminishing returns with squats, and that it arrives fairly quickly if boxing is your game?
If a guy can squat his bodyweight maybe five or ten times, and does maniacal ab work like most boxers do combined with tons of heavy bag work - isn’t that pretty much as much core stabilization as he’s going to need?[/quote]
Exactly, the cows really are coming home on this subject. Typical boxing ab work is varied and effective. I’d say that focused and varied ab work is by far MORE effective than squats of any kind in creating that core you need to fight. And, they produce a higher degree of conditioning needed to ‘go the distance’ and take a punch to the gut than the limited reps you’ll achieve doing average to heavy weight squats.
In theory squats could work for boxers. In practice core work and the tried and tested exercises work better and utilise your energy levels more efficiently.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
JJ-dude - would you agree, however, that there’s a point of diminishing returns with squats, and that it arrives fairly quickly if boxing is your game?
If a guy can squat his bodyweight maybe five or ten times, and does maniacal ab work like most boxers do combined with tons of heavy bag work - isn’t that pretty much as much core stabilization as he’s going to need?[/quote]
Diminishing returns from squats? I agree 100%. Biggest issue I see is people who don’t know how to control their own bodies and pretty much any of the big lifts can go a long way to help that. Also, there are often strength imbalances that need to be addressed. A squat requires control of the body from the feet to the point of contact with the bar. Pretty good bang for the training buck for a while, then once they get it down, piling on the weight would take up most of their quality training time, so I don’t advocate going much past 1.25 times bodyweight in a squat. If they like it and want to, I don’t think it hurts their training and the guys I’ve seen go bonkers with strength training do get strong, but I just don’t see it as transferring that much at the higher level. (OK, powerlifting is a sagittal plane exercise and martial arts occurs in all planes, so optimizing one plane means you can start to lose power in the others.)
As for core work like most boxers do it – sure, that is tried and true. Tons of situps also are a good endurance routine for the abs which is a consideration for a bout, however I don’t really recommend the way I used to, just because martial artists are pretty much always stuck in trunk flexion and over time this can start giving them another set of training issues. I advocate things like ab wheels, stability ball exercises (some really toast your core), dragonflies and the like. Oh and landmines…
– jj