Quick question:
When squating I know that it is paramount to go below parallel for best results…but by squating ass to calves am I placing unnessesary stress on my knees or is it all about how low can you go?
Good question, mate!
I would like a good, definitive answer to this one too, as I’ve heard/read all sorts of stuff.
Personally, I squat as far down as I can go. Obviously, when I use a lot of weight I find it very difficult to start coming back up from below parallel, so on my last (and heaviest set) I might only go down to parallel. But never less than that!
I have problems in my left knee due to a badly tracking patella, but have noticed no extra pain as compared to my right knee.
I’ve heard people complaining about knee pain from performing squats, so they won’t do them. I find this puzzling, as I’ve never found anyone that says “oh, my elbows hurt after a heavy session of bench press, so I don’t bench anymore.”
If it’s of any help to you, I’ve been squatting seriously (consistently) for a couple of months now and my knees are no sorer than any of my other joints. What I did do when I started was spend a lot of time with very little weight on the bar just trying out different feet/leg positions; I think it’s important to find the right groove for your body’s biomechanics.
I advocate the full barbell squat as one of the core exercises in most any weight-training program. If you are an aspiring powerlifter, then you will need to spend some time performing squats in a powerlifting style in order to prepare for competition. I believe that the full squat will be of tremendous value in laying down a proper strength foundation.
Many fitness experts warn against performing squats past the point of parallel for fear of potentially damaging the knees. As a general rule I disagree with those experts though there are certainly individual exceptions. When the full squat is performed correctly and with total control through a complete range of motion, the knees are strengthened, not weakened. According to the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons, an estimated 50 million North Americans have suffered or are suffering knee pain or injuries and six million of them will visit a doctor for knee problems each year. The majority of these problems are degenerative in nature and are the result of disuse of the knee joint. Squatting keeps the knee joints mobile and free of pain. Several joint facets on the inside of the kneecap are used only when an individual performs a complete squat.
When the squat is performed to a parallel depth, it is the knees, which take the majority of the stress involved in stopping the downward momentum of the squat. When the squat is performed to a full depth, this same ?braking? stress is transferred to the larger, powerful muscles of the hips, hamstrings and buttocks. It is obvious that the squat must be performed with a great deal of control and that any type of rapid ?rebounding?, whether it is done at parallel or at full depth will be detrimental to the knees.
It is common for someone who does full squats for the first time to complain of “knee pain”, but anytime you impose stress on a part of the body that has not been used much, then some discomfort will follow initially. In the Western world, we are not used to squatting, but in many places it is part of daily life.
I also believe that if you have been lifting and do parallel type squats and wish to go deeper, you should spend a few weeks or training sessions doing bodyweight type full squats to get the facet joints used to this new range of motion and then you can gradually add weight.
Hope that helps
Keith
Thank you for that great answer. I hear that all the time… oh my knees will hurt, I have bad knees…
Also, I found that front squatting helped on my form with back squats.
Next time you want to examine the cracks in the linoleum at home, try this:
- Bend at the waist as if you were going to touch your toes and look.
- Kneel right down.
- Drop into a full squat, with your feet shoulder-width and your toes pointed slightly outward; let your ass fall all the way down so your hamstrings are resting on your calves.
- Squat until your knees are bent at a 90-degree angle; see how long you can hold it.
Now, which position is most comfortable? The full squat is how our bodies worked for thousands of years without chairs or waist-high work surfaces.
I think it’s clear that we are “mechanically efficient” in the full squat position. At parallel puts the knee in its weakest position, since the tendons and muscles that push and pull and stabilize it are all loose at that point.
Or, to quote a recent article: “Stopping at parallel means using your knees as brakes; brakes wear out.”
For me, since going to full squats, I’ve lost any tendency to feel twinges in my knees during squats (or at any other time). Of course I warm up with light weight before the serious sets.
I don’t know the article off hand but it was about squat or lifting myths. I think Eric Cressey wrote it. He describes how the Knee tendons work and explains that at parallel is the weakest part. They fully support the knee at either straight or full bent.
This is what I wrote for another thread, but I’ll post it here since it’s relevant.
I don’t think we (Eric and I) necessarily disagree, just that this issue isn’t as black and white as people make it out to be. What constitutes a full squat? What is “below parallel”? You show me 10 guys, and I’ll show you 10 different opinions!
In healthy knees, the co-contraction of the hams, quads and calves stabilizes the knee the way that it should; however, here’s a study by Escamilla (one of the foremost researchers on squatting biomechanics) w/ regards to knee forces:
Knee biomechanics of the dynamic squat exercise.
Escamilla RF.
Michael W. Krzyzewski Human Performance Laboratory, Division of Orthopaedic Surgery, Duke University Medical Center, Durham, NC 27710, USA. rescamil@duke.edu
PURPOSE: Because a strong and stable knee is paramount to an athlete’s or patient’s success, an understanding of knee biomechanics while performing the squat is helpful to therapists, trainers, sports medicine physicians, researchers, coaches, and athletes who are interested in closed kinetic chain exercises, knee rehabilitation, and training for sport. The purpose of this review was to examine knee biomechanics during the dynamic squat exercise. METHODS: Tibiofemoral shear and compressive forces, patellofemoral compressive force, knee muscle activity, and knee stability were reviewed and discussed relative to athletic performance, injury potential, and rehabilitation. RESULTS: Low to moderate posterior shear forces, restrained primarily by the posterior cruciate ligament (PCL), were generated throughout the squat for all knee flexion angles. Low anterior shear forces, restrained primarily by the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL), were generated between 0 and 60 degrees knee flexion. Patellofemoral compressive forces and tibiofemoral compressive and shear forces progressively increased as the knees flexed and decreased as the knees extended, reaching peak values near maximum knee flexion. Hence, training the squat in the functional range between 0 and 50 degrees knee flexion may be appropriate for many knee rehabilitation patients, because knee forces were minimum in the functional range. Quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius activity generally increased as knee flexion increased, which supports athletes with healthy knees performing the parallel squat (thighs parallel to ground at maximum knee flexion) between 0 and 100 degrees knee flexion. Furthermore, it was demonstrated that the parallel squat was not injurious to the healthy knee. CONCLUSIONS: The squat was shown to be an effective exercise to employ during cruciate ligament or patellofemoral rehabilitation. For athletes with healthy knees, performing the parallel squat is recommended over the deep squat, because injury potential to the menisci and cruciate and collateral ligaments may increase with the deep squat. The squat does not compromise knee stability, and can enhance stability if performed correctly. Finally, the squat can be effective in developing hip, knee, and ankle musculature, because moderate to high quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius activity were produced during the squat.
Now keep in mind this is one study, by one guy. If you have healthy knees and squat ass-to-calves, then that’s great and maybe you will never get hurt. BUT, most people don’t have the flexibility to go this deep, or the desire to go this deep. When Escamila is saying deep squat, he means like full flexion of the knee joint (~135 degrees), not just slightly below parallel (~110 degrees, which Eric referenced in his article).
Regardless, just because you squat this way doesn’t mean you WILL get hurt, simply that you MAY have an increased risk to get hurt. Like everything in life, weigh your options and choose what fits in best for you.
Stay strong
MR
That’s some useful stuff. Thanks for the replies!
I hunted around a bit and found this great article by Ian King (Five Ways to Go Deeper) on the benefits and the how-to’s of deep squatting:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459517
It’s well worth a read.
[quote]Mike Robertson wrote:
This is what I wrote for another thread, but I’ll post it here since it’s relevant.
I don’t think we (Eric and I) necessarily disagree, just that this issue isn’t as black and white as people make it out to be. What constitutes a full squat? What is “below parallel”? You show me 10 guys, and I’ll show you 10 different opinions!
In healthy knees, the co-contraction of the hams, quads and calves stabilizes the knee the way that it should; however, here’s a study by Escamilla (one of the foremost researchers on squatting biomechanics) w/ regards to knee forces:
Knee biomechanics of the dynamic squat exercise.
Escamilla RF.
Michael W. Krzyzewski Human Performance Laboratory, Division of Orthopaedic Surgery, Duke University Medical Center, Durham, NC 27710, USA. rescamil@duke.edu
PURPOSE: Because a strong and stable knee is paramount to an athlete’s or patient’s success, an understanding of knee biomechanics while performing the squat is helpful to therapists, trainers, sports medicine physicians, researchers, coaches, and athletes who are interested in closed kinetic chain exercises, knee rehabilitation, and training for sport. The purpose of this review was to examine knee biomechanics during the dynamic squat exercise. METHODS: Tibiofemoral shear and compressive forces, patellofemoral compressive force, knee muscle activity, and knee stability were reviewed and discussed relative to athletic performance, injury potential, and rehabilitation. RESULTS: Low to moderate posterior shear forces, restrained primarily by the posterior cruciate ligament (PCL), were generated throughout the squat for all knee flexion angles. Low anterior shear forces, restrained primarily by the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL), were generated between 0 and 60 degrees knee flexion. Patellofemoral compressive forces and tibiofemoral compressive and shear forces progressively increased as the knees flexed and decreased as the knees extended, reaching peak values near maximum knee flexion. Hence, training the squat in the functional range between 0 and 50 degrees knee flexion may be appropriate for many knee rehabilitation patients, because knee forces were minimum in the functional range. Quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius activity generally increased as knee flexion increased, which supports athletes with healthy knees performing the parallel squat (thighs parallel to ground at maximum knee flexion) between 0 and 100 degrees knee flexion. Furthermore, it was demonstrated that the parallel squat was not injurious to the healthy knee. CONCLUSIONS: The squat was shown to be an effective exercise to employ during cruciate ligament or patellofemoral rehabilitation. For athletes with healthy knees, performing the parallel squat is recommended over the deep squat, because injury potential to the menisci and cruciate and collateral ligaments may increase with the deep squat. The squat does not compromise knee stability, and can enhance stability if performed correctly. Finally, the squat can be effective in developing hip, knee, and ankle musculature, because moderate to high quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius activity were produced during the squat.
Now keep in mind this is one study, by one guy. If you have healthy knees and squat ass-to-calves, then that’s great and maybe you will never get hurt. BUT, most people don’t have the flexibility to go this deep, or the desire to go this deep. When Escamila is saying deep squat, he means like full flexion of the knee joint (~135 degrees), not just slightly below parallel (~110 degrees, which Eric referenced in his article).
Regardless, just because you squat this way doesn’t mean you WILL get hurt, simply that you MAY have an increased risk to get hurt. Like everything in life, weigh your options and choose what fits in best for you.
Stay strong
MR[/quote]
I think TShaw made an EXCELLENT point!!
Thoughts Mike?
I’ve already stated how I feel on the topic. Yes, your body is fully capable of squatting deep, and yes you can do it. However, for some people this may not be the best idea.
I’m not going to lump this into one, all-encompassing answer. It’s something that has to be taken on a case-by-case basis.
Stay strong
MR
[quote]Mike Robertson wrote:
I’ve already stated how I feel on the topic. Yes, your body is fully capable of squatting deep, and yes you can do it. However, for some people this may not be the best idea.
I’m not going to lump this into one, all-encompassing answer. It’s something that has to be taken on a case-by-case basis.
Stay strong
MR[/quote]
I agree with that.
[quote]Mike Robertson wrote:
I’ve already stated how I feel on the topic. Yes, your body is fully capable of squatting deep, and yes you can do it. However, for some people this may not be the best idea.
I’m not going to lump this into one, all-encompassing answer. It’s something that has to be taken on a case-by-case basis.
Stay strong
MR[/quote]
I agree. For people with healthy knees and the requisite flexibility, full squats are great.
Most people don’t fit both those criteria, though. My opinion is to fix the dysfunction where possible (i.e. flexibility issues or a weak VMO), but don’t force the ROM until it’s corrected or if it’s not correctable (torn meniscus, for example). If you try to force it among these groups, you’re going to cause more damage than benefit.
-Dan
I say to do both. Close stance and deep for greater quad development and wide stance parallel for posterior chain development. I squat to a parallel box and super wide every week for speed work. Up until lately I neglected low box close stance squats. I worked them in as a ME movement about eight weeks ago and realized my close stance 1 RM was my competition stance 10 RM. I kid not, this is extremely pathetic. Now I find close stance low box squats in my three week cycle of ME moves and my quads are starting to grow again.
Joe