Squat/DL Variations to Avoid Low Back Pain?

Training Powerlifting
21

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
You have shitty form. Excesive back soreness from squats and/or deadlifts implies lifting heavy weights with a rounded lower back, which implies shitty form. Fix it and you will not have to resort to some stupid workaround.

It’s disappointing that nobody mentioned this earlier.[/quote]

Is everything alright man? This seemed needlessly abbrassive.[/quote]

Well, I’m just getting annoyed by the quality of information on the whole forum incl. this sub-forum. Contemplating leaving this site for good, but haven’t pulled the trigger yet.[/quote]

That’s definitely an option. I am doing my best to share my experiences and what has worked for me in order to attempt to better this place as well. I don’t think I have all the answers, but I figure its a good place to share.[/quote]

And most everyone appreciates it. I know I do, especially the deadlift videos and ROM progression you’ve posted. [/quote]
+1 here, there is a lot crap in this forum but a lot of good too. T3’s advice based on his own experience instead of broscience or other BS is great! T Nation should pay him to write here.

22

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
You have shitty form. Excesive back soreness from squats and/or deadlifts implies lifting heavy weights with a rounded lower back, which implies shitty form. Fix it and you will not have to resort to some stupid workaround.

It’s disappointing that nobody mentioned this earlier.[/quote]

Is everything alright man? This seemed needlessly abbrassive.[/quote]

Well, I’m just getting annoyed by the quality of information on the whole forum incl. this sub-forum. Contemplating leaving this site for good, but haven’t pulled the trigger yet.[/quote]

there’s a video of my form.

and to be honest, no one has time in their life to care if you leave or not. i just wanted advice on this idea. perhaps my form is bad, but i don’t see any rounding of my back. if there is, i am willing to look into it.

23

I can’t really tell how tall you are, but your butt might be a bit high at the start and shoulders possibly leaning ahead of the bar on the initial pull. Might be a little too much shear force on your back w/ that kind of angle (almost 90deg). Stop the vid at 7 sec to see your initial pulling position. When you initially go to pull the position looks good until the weight hits your legs and you lose your initial position. You’ll see your butt kinda shoot up a little instead of holding that lower position. Looks like you’re leaning forward w/o your butt being down far enough. Check your bar position and make sure your shoulders are straight over the bar. Your spine looks much better after that since after the first rep your body will tend to pull itself into the correct position.

I’m no expert tho. Plus 9 reps is pretty high on the DL. Good pulling tho. Back off the reps and try and spread them out a little more. Focus on your initial pull and get your body set correctly.

Good luck! Looks pretty good other than some tiny tweaking on the initial pull.

24

I had similar low back issues when i was doing 5/3/1. I think it was the higher rep last max set that was doing it. Since then I moved to a sheiko style of training where the heavy reps are 2 or 3 and have never had the same issues, plus my 1rm went up. That was just my experience though.

25

Is that clashing of weights I hear at the beginning of the first rep the barbell running into the plates?

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As my strength increased; I reached a point where squatting and deadlifting in the same workout became the most productive approach (especially for meet prep.).

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[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]TheKraken wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]TheKraken wrote:
T3, I saw your post on deads for this, but you do it for squat too? [/quote]

I do it for squats, deads, bench and overhead press. For the squats, bench and press, I suspended the bar in the rack using chains.[/quote]

I don’t have straps or chains but the pins might work. I’ve been struggling with squats all year, I can see this help a lot. [/quote]

I can’t imagine pins would work. The chains are pretty vital, because you need to be able to get your hips set up correctly under the bar to squat, which requires your ability to move the bar through space during set-up. You can see me accomplish it here.

With pins, you move your body around the bar, rather than the other way around. Additionally, you’re really only going to be good for one rep unless you have incredible control over the bar, because when it makes contact with the pins, it tends to shake and move around, whereas chains tend to absorb the impact.

Getting straps and/or chains is a much better option in my opinion. Spud makes some decent stuff, or you can always just buy some towing straps. If they can tow a car, they can handle a lift.

Also, TC, instead of hammering the GHR, I would focus on the reverse hyper. Your hamstrings aren’t going to get nearly as neglected as your lower back with this approach, and the reverse hyper would be a great way to still hammer those muscles without putting a lot of strain on it.
[/quote]

Thanks for posting the video. I use tow straps for quite a bit but never thought to try that. I’ve never been a fan of bottom start squats for the reason you mention; that you never really get into proper position.

28

[quote]ouroboro_s wrote:
Thanks for posting the video. I use tow straps for quite a bit but never thought to try that. I’ve never been a fan of bottom start squats for the reason you mention; that you never really get into proper position.
[/quote]

Glad you appreciated it. I kind of dorked up the set-up on that one by being too far back in the rack, which made my depth higher than I wanted, but if you push forward more, you can get even lower.

29

does this angle help any more in regards to understanding my form and what could be causing the lower back issues? like I said, it isn’t horrible, but it is definitely soreness that happens every single time I lift (and I figured my body would adjust to it by now since hardly anywhere else gets sore).

30

If it’s just a soreness issue and not actually pain, I wouldn’t really worry about it. I feel like I got hit by a bus after every deadlift training session. I actually have to make a whole day out of the event, training on saturdays and loading up on calories at Taco Bell beforehand/laying on my couch and dying afterwards. I don’t have to do that for any other lift.

31

In the first video you can actually see your feet rocking forward during the eccentric portion of the reps. This means you are absolutely too far forward and the farther you go forward the more stress on the lower back vs hams/glutes/legs.

Also I really didnt think your back looked that tight to begin with IMO. Looks loose and unlocked, almost half rounded. Yes it’s neutral, but only just.

How much hamstring and ab work do you do?

32

Second video looks better, bar path looks good, but I know one thing for sure and that is you are not getting ANY tension before you lift. You are not pulling the slack out of the bar at all and that will help. Your set up allows you to stay loose which means your low back is going to take a lot of the first pull.

How do your front squat, back squat, good morning and deadlift numbers compare to each other?

33

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Second video looks better, bar path looks good, but I know one thing for sure and that is you are not getting ANY tension before you lift. You are not pulling the slack out of the bar at all and that will help. Your set up allows you to stay loose which means your low back is going to take a lot of the first pull.
[/quote]

Listen to this man. He doesn’t have a clue about peri-wo nutrition but is spot on here. This is what I meant with “you have shitty form”.

34

I’m old, I’m not that strong, and I had shittier deadlift form than you do, with similar lower back soreness issues (almost debilitating the day after). Everything remains unchanged, but my lower back soreness issues are gone.

What I had were supertight hips. My broscience explanation is that when your hips are supertight, your body will find movement elsewhere; in the case of the deadlift, it came from my lower back. At one point I even thought I was beginning to get sciatica-type issues. Post-hip (extensive) mobility work, the results were downright miraculous, seriously.

Just my .02 based on my real-life experience.

35

Want to add, fyi: My experience is from more than 2 years ago, but just last week I was reading about something that is apparently the new thing in personal training called the “joint by joint” approach, and one of the things I read was that hips are a joint that need mobility, and lack thereof leads to low back pain.

The two guys associated with this approach are Gray Cook, a well-known physical therapist, and LOL Mike Boyle who is pretty much anathema in powerlifting circles so…

36

[quote]punnyguy wrote:
Want to add, fyi: My experience is from more than 2 years ago, but just last week I was reading about something that is apparently the new thing in personal training called the “joint by joint” approach, and one of the things I read was that hips are a joint that need mobility, and lack thereof leads to low back pain.

The two guys associated with this approach are Gray Cook, a well-known physical therapist, and LOL Mike Boyle who is pretty much anathema in powerlifting circles so…[/quote]

Doesn’t make them any less correct though. Especially in the powerlifting circles where guys are practically so bound up they need to be told to “arch hard” just to get to a neutral back position (obvious hyperbole is obvious, but look at the Brandon Lilly thread for a possible explanation for his injuries…it involves lacking mobility or ROM) You are right both here and in your first post about a possible cause. I don’t see that from the OP however, mostly because there are obvious form issues that need to be fixed first to see what happens to his back soreness.

37

I gotta chime in and say I am totally with infinite shore. I don’t understand why there is any excuse to do some workaround approach to accomplish something when there is no need. I really don’t want to have any debates but I really don’t understand how anyone who competes in drug tested, raw lifting, can possibly argue that the approaches of everyone from Mike Tuscherer to Quest club to the entire Russian team etc etc etc… aren’t likely the best methods.

Anyways, if something hurts then understand why and fix it. Don’t work around it. The three power lifts can be performed with high frequency and volume and intensity (obviously within reason… no need for specifics here) on a highly regular basis without injury and with progression.

Not that I really know anything about you or your training but I can perhaps say this:
In the video above at 49 when you initiate the pull you jerk with the lats not engaged and the back forward and are over the bar. IMO, the ideal training also is as close to competition lifts, so like many high level coaches (not that I coach on a high level), I always advocate resetting the bar unless you have some distinct reason not to. Anyways, this list can go on and on. My thesis is really just that no you will not cripple yourself by doing the powerlifts so long as you do them correctly.

38

[quote]arramzy wrote:
I gotta chime in and say I am totally with infinite shore. I don’t understand why there is any excuse to do some workaround approach to accomplish something when there is no need. I really don’t want to have any debates but I really don’t understand how anyone who competes in drug tested, raw lifting, can possibly argue that the approaches of everyone from Mike Tuscherer to Quest club to the entire Russian team etc etc etc… aren’t likely the best methods.
[/quote]

I don’t feel that anyone was arguing that these aren’t the best methods, at least not here on this forum in particular.

39

Lifter85 - in your case, like what was stated above, make sure you take the slack out of the bar and pull, don’t yank it up. Try the suggestions made above and see if your back gets feeling better. If it doesn’t, take some time off or do something else to allow it to heal up.

There will come a time when nagging little aches and pains, even mild to severe injuries will cause you to do different things in order to keep progressing. Some times you can work thru them, but you may also have to work around them in order to let them heal.