The thread is about the concepts straight outta Mark Rippetoe’s PRACTICAL PROGRAMMING FOR STRENGTH TRAINING This thread is NOT about SS or beginner programming in particular. This is simple shit here but when you don’t understand how to correctly manipulate the variables (intensity, volume, workout frequency, etc) you will be missing out.
This is NOT about specific programs, this is a concept that can be applied to all programs including bodypart splits. In fact bodypart splits are talked about extensively in that book.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
mr popular wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
mr popular wrote:
Also, I would strongly echo what MODOK is saying about doing as much as you can. However, I think for some people it needs to be spelled out that doing as much as you can doesn’t mean sacrificing a lot of important stuff to focus on one thing (in this case the squat).
No one has ever said you CAN’T squat every other day… and if you can still train the rest of your body equally and make progress without neglecting anything then keep doing it (I doubt anyone in this thread is that gifted).
The problem with these programs is that so many things need to be sacrificed just to make a routine that everybody with average or poor genetics can squat three times a week with… it is tailored to the lowest common denominator, based on the success of the most genetically gifted, and fueled by hyperbole and nut hugging while producing very little results.
UM… unless you are trying to bring up certain body parts. At that point training everything equally isn’t always the best. Specialization (including squatting) has a place in BBing.
Duh?
so… you are admitting high frequency squatting has a place in bbing?
Already been said/discussed DD… You’re a little late to the party, hence his reaction
This thread is apparently about beginner-training anyway… Or something like that.
[/quote]
Some Mr. Popular quotes from the discussion I was contradicting:
â??Of course you COULD structure your training so that it would allow you to squat heavy three times a week… but, why would we want to do that? We would be missing out on a lot of stimulation for our thighs that we would otherwise get, just for the sake of squatting every other day. You aren’t likely to build a great lower body by training this way, because you’ve sacrificed so much just so you could get stronger a little faster on one exercise right now (which is also going to stall out do to a lack of accessory work, since you leave hardly enough room to recover from the squats alone)
If you’re a powerlifting doing a sheiko program or something, great… have at it… but I don’t see how squatting three times a week would EVER be relevant to a bodybuilder (yes, even a newbie, Starting Strength sucks balls)â??
â??And again, no one ever said there is anything wrong with squatting more often if all you care about is squatting, but for BODYBUILDING it is not a useful idea.â??
â??where is the benefit over just training NORMALLY again?â??
â??as if that pertains to why squatting 3x a week is a good way to train… NONE of them trained that wayâ??
â??Nothing beats normal, traditional training… if you need charts and graphs to justify why you train a certain way (because your results don’t speak for themselves), then you should probably ask yourself why you feel compelled to do this at all.â??
â??Normal training (whether it is bodybuilding or powerlifting) means not neglecting a whole lot of important shit just for the sake of making faster progress on one arbitrary exercise…â??
Mr. Popular, if you squatted once per week and could add 5 pounds to the bar each week indefinitely, I could see your point. Let’s be real though, you eventually hit a wall where you can’t add 5 lbs to the bar weekly anymore, RIGHT? Well then what happens next? I guess you just train “intuitively” and “listen to your body” telling you when it’s time to add weight. Some of us however prefer a more periodized routne after this point. I want to know what I will be lifting before I even step foot in the gym.
[quote]elano wrote:
Mr. Popular, if you squatted once per week and could add 5 pounds to the bar each week indefinitely, I could see your point. Let’s be real though, you eventually hit a wall where you can’t add 5 lbs to the bar weekly anymore, RIGHT? Well then what happens next? I guess you just train “intuitively” and “listen to your body” telling you when it’s time to add weight. Some of us however prefer a more periodized routne after this point. I want to know what I will be lifting before I even step foot in the gym. [/quote]
Yes, I do listen to my body, and learning how to train intuitively has given me my best results.
And to answer your question, when I can’t add weight to my squat anymore, I change it out for the leg press. lol
Although it may satisfy your mind to think that way, the body is not a machine, and the changes it undergoes at any point in time just aren’t that quantifiable. I’m not saying some periodization doesn’t work, but planning everything out like that will only limit you in my opinion.
Yes, I do listen to my body, and learning how to train intuitively has given me my best results.
And to answer your question, when I can’t add weight to my squat anymore, I change it out for the leg press. lol
Although it may satisfy your mind to think that way, the body is not a machine, and the changes it undergoes at any point in time just aren’t that quantifiable. I’m not saying some periodization doesn’t work, but planning everything out like that will only limit you in my opinion.[/quote]
The changes it undergoes at any point ARE quantifiable, it’s the weight you add to the bar. If you add 5 pounds to the bar in a week, that is a quantified measurement of progress.
Switching out the squat for the leg press when you stall is only going to hurt your squat in the long run. Just my opinion, the time you spend on the leg press is time that could be spent increasing the squat. Why not just do both?
The idea is if you can’t add weight to the bar every week, you add weight to the bar every 2 weeks or whenever you are able to in a systematic way. You squat enough to disrupt homeostasis and then the body adapts to that particular stress. Nothing magical about it, no reason to not work it like a machine.
Golden Agers…who are still bigger than most of the lifters here…would train each body part 2-3 times a day, they might have done TBT for a bit, upper/lower splits, push/pull splits, etc.
I think too often people assume they are the exception, not the rule. I just read a post about someone who’s been training for 10 years and has never done a DB press, only barbell. Don’t get me wrong, pretty big dude, but that speaks volumes for the way most people go about their training. They tend to stick to one concept they were told works, instead of trying to see what works for them.
Unless you’ve squated HARD three times a week how will you know if it works for you are not? Sames goes for any split, any exercise, or any set/rep scheme. I know we all will say “well such and such pro bb’er hits the muscle once a week so I will too” or CT told me this, blah, blah, blah. Do you have their genetics? Training history? In training athletes tend to fall in line with what they are good at, with what produces the best results for them.
Now, I’ve only been training seriously for a year but because I f’n listen to my damn body I can tell you that when I started I could easily squat “hard” 3 x week. Shit, I probably could have done 4 x a week. Now, 3 times a week may be pushing it, just depends on the set/rep scheme, twice a week may be optimal for me at this point. As you progress, get stronger, learn to concentrate and focus on the work the muscle is doing, you develop a connection in such a way that a single set of 15 pushups (if done correctly) could even leave you fatigued and pumped.
I train myself, and I train other people. I watch people train 8 hours a day. I can count on one hand the number of people I actually see focused on what they are doing. 9/10 are just moving weight around. I’m a man of science, but I don’t care what scientific principle you follow or what dogmatic principle you follow…get in the gym…focus on what you’re doing…want more…get more…do more.
I weigh 164lbs at 5’5". I walked in the gym on Monday and did a 20 rep squat a 185lbs. Felt good. I walked in on Wednesday and did 200lbs for 20 reps. (yeah i know, i’m weak and small, blah blah blah) Why? Was that listed on my program? Did some rabbit tell me to do it? No. I seek out failure everyday. If I actually completed every rep of every set then I’m not working with enough intensity. If I don’t feel my muscle contracting hard, my eyes bugging out of my head, then I don’t have my head on straight that day.
Yes, I do listen to my body, and learning how to train intuitively has given me my best results.
And to answer your question, when I can’t add weight to my squat anymore, I change it out for the leg press. lol
Although it may satisfy your mind to think that way, the body is not a machine, and the changes it undergoes at any point in time just aren’t that quantifiable. I’m not saying some periodization doesn’t work, but planning everything out like that will only limit you in my opinion.[/quote]
The changes it undergoes at any point ARE quantifiable, it’s the weight you add to the bar. If you add 5 pounds to the bar in a week, that is a quantified measurement of progress.
Switching out the squat for the leg press when you stall is only going to hurt your squat in the long run. Just my opinion, the time you spend on the leg press is time that could be spent increasing the squat. Why not just do both?
The idea is if you can’t add weight to the bar every week, you add weight to the bar every 2 weeks or whenever you are able to in a systematic way. You squat enough to disrupt homeostasis and then the body adapts to that particular stress. Nothing magical about it, no reason to not work it like a machine.[/quote]
Why would I care if switching it out is going to “hurt my squat”?
If I followed the “add 5lbs every 2 weeks” philosophy I would have missed out on many points in time where my thighs had a big growth spurt and wanted me to add 20lbs to the bar instead.
I don’t recommend treating the body like a machine, not because I think the body can’t HANDLE it, but because I think the body - a sophisticated living organism - is capable of more than a handful of rules and restrictions put on it’s biology telling it when to grow.
Why would I care if switching it out is going to “hurt my squat”?
If I followed the “add 5lbs every 2 weeks” philosophy I would have missed out on many points in time where my thighs had a big growth spurt and wanted me to add 20lbs to the bar instead.
I don’t recommend treating the body like a machine, not because I think the body can’t HANDLE it, but because I think the body - a sophisticated living organism - is capable of more than a handful of rules and restrictions put on it’s biology telling it when to grow.[/quote]
I guess were just going to have to agree to disagree.
Take some recent pics. We will meet back here in 2 years and see who made the most progress.
Why would I care if switching it out is going to “hurt my squat”?
If I followed the “add 5lbs every 2 weeks” philosophy I would have missed out on many points in time where my thighs had a big growth spurt and wanted me to add 20lbs to the bar instead.
I don’t recommend treating the body like a machine, not because I think the body can’t HANDLE it, but because I think the body - a sophisticated living organism - is capable of more than a handful of rules and restrictions put on it’s biology telling it when to grow.[/quote]
I guess were just going to have to agree to disagree.
Take some recent pics. We will meet back here in 2 years and see who made the most progress.[/quote]
I haven’t seen any pictures of you. Do you have any? (feel free to PM if you don’t want to post them publically)
There isn’t much fairness in comparing our progress if we aren’t starting on a somewhat even playing field.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
For a bodybuilder seeking optimal gains in size and strength, it all comes down to this phrase, in my opinion:
“You do as much as you can get away with”
That means exactly what many have been saying on this thread- you train hard as frequently as YOU CAN while progressing. If more people just looked at it from that side of the fence instead of the OTHER side ( train only often enough to FULLY recover)…there would be a hell of a lot more muscle in the world. At some point in time during your training career, you have to accept this premise. Packaged programs won’t cut it anymore.
You need to start asking questions of your body about what it can and can’t individually do, and then be smart enough to understand what it tells you and adjust accordingly. This is the point when science grabs the hand of art and skips down the road singing a song. You may not be there yet, but trust me, at some point in your training career, packaged programs will become sub-optimal/ useless for greater increases in your body’s physical horizon.[/quote]
Post of the month, maybe the year.
Seriously. This sums up BB’ing.
Those whom do not have the ‘intuition’ ( see instincts ) to train themselves from the start, must develop said intuition or fail.
The biggest limitations in Weight Training are not Biological they are Psychological.
[quote]daraz wrote:
Another fullbody vs. split thread, how nice!
I do both squats and deadlifts on each days of leg and back. Is my program a full body or split program?
[/quote]
Uhhh this isn’t a full body vs split thread, it’s a full body thread that the split enthusiasts wanted to join in on.[/quote]
And here I was, thinking it was about squatting three times a week.
[quote]daraz wrote:
Another fullbody vs. split thread, how nice!
I do both squats and deadlifts on each days of leg and back. Is my program a full body or split program?
[/quote]
Uhhh this isn’t a full body vs split thread, it’s a full body thread that the split enthusiasts wanted to join in on.[/quote]
And here I was, thinking it was about squatting three times a week.
[/quote]
[quote]daraz wrote:
Another fullbody vs. split thread, how nice!
I do both squats and deadlifts on each days of leg and back. Is my program a full body or split program?
[/quote]
Uhhh this isn’t a full body vs split thread, it’s a full body thread that the split enthusiasts wanted to join in on.[/quote]
And here I was, thinking it was about squatting three times a week.
[/quote]
LOL almost
Full body meaning that you squat 3x per week.[/quote]
I can squat 3 times a week without doing full-body workouts. (let’s argue!
Okay, forget about “full body.” My mistake, I shouldn’t have said that. Let me answer Daraz a different way.
This isn’t a full body vs. split thread. The point of this thread was the misconception people have that you can’t squat 3x per week. Truth is you can squat more than once per week throughout your whole training career if you vary the intensity, volume, and weight. This can also apply to other exercises.
I’m not advocating a specific way to train or saying that one way is better than the other. What I want people to get out of this thread is that there is another way to train other than listening to the body tell you when to add weight. If the week or month is planned correctly, there can still be a sort of linear progression where you add weight systematically over a period of time. 5lb per workout, week, month, semi-yearly or whatever.
Regarding split style training, in PP (which the points in thread are based on), Mark Rippetoe says regarding the split routine model for intermediates: [quote]
" Three-days-a-week whole-body workout plan that has been used up to this point is a very effective way to organize training. In fact, most people would be well served by continuing this basic program design through their whole training career. It is an efficient use of time, and it provides a complete workout. There are, however, reasons to change from this model.
One possible reason is simple boredom. training should be fun, and indeed more progress will be made if it is. Different people have different psychological needs for variety. For some the prospect of continuing on for years and years training the whole body three times a week is not welcome. These peope will respond beter to a program that varies more during the week, or even one that varies every week. " [/quote]
He then outlines split models for different types of athletes with specific goals.
Progress may be just as quick with a split routine if the programming is right. I’m not trying to step on anyone’s toes here, just trying to get a point across. While I personally prefer the whole-body approach, a split style routine is just fine but eventually the beginner/intermediate will not be able to add weight every week anymore (on split style or full body) and when he/she gets to this point they are considered advanced and require a more complex type of programming.
For them, weight can still be added in linear fashion but instead of week to week, it may be every month. Also it doesn’t have to be 5lbs, the lifter can start out with 400x1 and then after a 12 week periodization cycle perform 400x3.
[quote]daraz wrote:
Another fullbody vs. split thread, how nice!
I do both squats and deadlifts on each days of leg and back. Is my program a full body or split program?
[/quote]
Uhhh this isn’t a full body vs split thread, it’s a full body thread that the split enthusiasts wanted to join in on.[/quote]
And here I was, thinking it was about squatting three times a week.
[/quote]
LOL almost
Full body meaning that you squat 3x per week.[/quote]
I can squat 3 times a week without doing full-body workouts. (let’s argue!
[/quote]
I tried the 20 rep squat challenge thing this weekend for some reason I haven’t figured out yet. The state of my body currently is conclusive proof that the squat is a full body workout.
