Squat 3x Per Week Misconception

Training Bodybuilding
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I haven’t been progressing that fast. I was so obsessed with hitting 315 for so long that all I did was try and do heavy single for awhile. For instance:

Monday - 250 3x5
Wednesday - 255 3x5
Friday - test where my one rep max is

I should have specified that I didn’t do five consecutive reps, they were singles. I wish I could rep out five solid reps. Today I got 7 singles. They weren’t the prettiest, but fuck it. My knee is a bit burnt out feeling so I’ll gonna rest through Thanksgiving break and see what’s up next monday. I’ll see if my gym cares if I shoot a video. And yeah, that pic was before I started training. More for a laugh than anything.

I’m currently stuck at 275. I can’t seem to get my 3x5. I’ll get the first set, then fail on the next two sets. I suppose I shouldn’t try and do these singles but just work on progressing how SS recommends. My goal is 315 3x10. Don’t ask me why, though.

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[quote]mr popular wrote:
Although I think there is a part of the program where your body is trained three times a week, I don’t believe any of the BBB guys are actually back squatting heavy three times a week.

And again, no one ever said there is anything wrong with squatting more often if all you care about is squatting, but for BODYBUILDING it is not a useful idea.[/quote]

Sweet mother…

The guys over at Intense Muscle have SS posted as an appropriate newbie template, and it is.

The whole point of the graph Elano posted is that you train your muscles as often as you can while still allowing them to recover fully. The stronger you get, the more you must periodize your routine so that you can train your muscles as often as possible but still recover fully. Hence, beginners can squat 3x/week because they can recover fully from lifting small poundages with only a full day of rest in between.

Intermediates need a different template (the Texas Method, etc) because they can’t squat 3x/week - their muscles can’t recover from lifting those poundages with only one full day of rest in between. They need a heavy day and a volume day, or whatever the template calls for (Max effort/dynamic effort, etc).

Rippetoe’s SS program is great. If you use it and eat a calorie surplus, you will gain weight. It will only work while you’re a beginner, hence the name “Starting Strength.”

Please stop creating a dichotomy between powerlifters and bodybuilders. A good chunk of the really successful bodybuilders started off in powerlifting (Arnold, Franco, Ronnie Coleman, etc). There’s a reason those guys get the biggest; they get the strongest.

Most beginning and intermediate bodybuilders would do well to start off in powerlifting. Learning how to add weight to a heavy deadlift takes you a lot further than dicking around in the gym, talking on your cell phone, making no progress for many years, and then trying gear because you have not learned how to gain weight naturally.

Show me the small man who squats 405 for reps. I’ve yet to see one. I do see a lot of small men in gyms, but I also see them moving small weight. The biggest guys on this forum move big weight.

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[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
mr popular wrote:
Although I think there is a part of the program where your body is trained three times a week, I don’t believe any of the BBB guys are actually back squatting heavy three times a week.

And again, no one ever said there is anything wrong with squatting more often if all you care about is squatting, but for BODYBUILDING it is not a useful idea.

Sweet mother…

The guys over at Intense Muscle have SS posted as an appropriate newbie template, and it is.

The whole point of the graph Elano posted is that you train your muscles as often as you can while still allowing them to recover fully. The stronger you get, the more you must periodize your routine so that you can train your muscles as often as possible but still recover fully. Hence, beginners can squat 3x/week because they can recover fully from lifting small poundages with only a full day of rest in between.

Intermediates need a different template (the Texas Method, etc) because they can’t squat 3x/week - their muscles can’t recover from lifting those poundages with only one full day of rest in between. They need a heavy day and a volume day, or whatever the template calls for (Max effort/dynamic effort, etc).

Rippetoe’s SS program is great. If you use it and eat a calorie surplus, you will gain weight. It will only work while you’re a beginner, hence the name “Starting Strength.”

Please stop creating a dichotomy between powerlifters and bodybuilders. A good chunk of the really successful bodybuilders started off in powerlifting (Arnold, Franco, Ronnie Coleman, etc). There’s a reason those guys get the biggest; they get the strongest.

Most beginning and intermediate bodybuilders would do well to start off in powerlifting. Learning how to add weight to a heavy deadlift takes you a lot further than dicking around in the gym, talking on your cell phone, making no progress for many years, and then trying gear because you have not learned how to gain weight naturally.

Show me the small man who squats 405 for reps. I’ve yet to see one. I do see a lot of small men in gyms, but I also see them moving small weight. The biggest guys on this forum move big weight.

[/quote]

You can TALK about this bullshit all you like, but I have never seen these amazing results to back any of it up.

And I’m not interested in creating a dichotomy between powerlifting and bodybuilding, I think Starting Strength and all these other minimalistic programs are lousy for bodybuilders AND powerlifters… And since when does being a powerlifter mean you can only do 6 exercises and HAVE to edit your training so much just so you can squat three times a week… where is the benefit over just training NORMALLY again?

And I don’t understand why you’re trying to make some convoluted point about great bodybuilders starting as powerlifters, as if that pertains to why squatting 3x a week is a good way to train… NONE of them trained that way, furthermore I don’t understand why you think everybody has to follow these exact programs as they pass through different “levels”.

Some of you guys are so pathologically bitter about highschoolers that text in the gym, and the bench&curls crowd, that you’ve created this entire internet community as a way to rebel against those “fools”… the trouble is, squatting three times a week and hardly doing anything else, is just as idiotic as bench&curls three times a week (except the bench&curls guys usually look better than you do).

Nothing beats normal, traditional training… if you need charts and graphs to justify why you train a certain way (because your results don’t speak for themselves), then you should probably ask yourself why you feel compelled to do this at all.

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[quote]mr popular wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
mr popular wrote:
Although I think there is a part of the program where your body is trained three times a week, I don’t believe any of the BBB guys are actually back squatting heavy three times a week.

And again, no one ever said there is anything wrong with squatting more often if all you care about is squatting, but for BODYBUILDING it is not a useful idea.

Sweet mother…

The guys over at Intense Muscle have SS posted as an appropriate newbie template, and it is.

The whole point of the graph Elano posted is that you train your muscles as often as you can while still allowing them to recover fully. The stronger you get, the more you must periodize your routine so that you can train your muscles as often as possible but still recover fully. Hence, beginners can squat 3x/week because they can recover fully from lifting small poundages with only a full day of rest in between.

Intermediates need a different template (the Texas Method, etc) because they can’t squat 3x/week - their muscles can’t recover from lifting those poundages with only one full day of rest in between. They need a heavy day and a volume day, or whatever the template calls for (Max effort/dynamic effort, etc).

Rippetoe’s SS program is great. If you use it and eat a calorie surplus, you will gain weight. It will only work while you’re a beginner, hence the name “Starting Strength.”

Please stop creating a dichotomy between powerlifters and bodybuilders. A good chunk of the really successful bodybuilders started off in powerlifting (Arnold, Franco, Ronnie Coleman, etc). There’s a reason those guys get the biggest; they get the strongest.

Most beginning and intermediate bodybuilders would do well to start off in powerlifting. Learning how to add weight to a heavy deadlift takes you a lot further than dicking around in the gym, talking on your cell phone, making no progress for many years, and then trying gear because you have not learned how to gain weight naturally.

Show me the small man who squats 405 for reps. I’ve yet to see one. I do see a lot of small men in gyms, but I also see them moving small weight. The biggest guys on this forum move big weight.

You can TALK about this bullshit all you like, but I have never seen these amazing results to back any of it up.

And I’m not interested in creating a dichotomy between powerlifting and bodybuilding, I think Starting Strength and all these other minimalistic programs are lousy for bodybuilders AND powerlifters… And since when does being a powerlifter mean you can only do 6 exercises and HAVE to edit your training so much just so you can squat three times a week… where is the benefit over just training NORMALLY again?

And I don’t understand why you’re trying to make some convoluted point about great bodybuilders starting as powerlifters, as if that pertains to why squatting 3x a week is a good way to train… NONE of them trained that way, furthermore I don’t understand why you think everybody has to follow these exact programs as they pass through different “levels”.

Some of you guys are so pathologically bitter about highschoolers that text in the gym, and the bench&curls crowd, that you’ve created this entire internet community as a way to rebel against those “fools”… the trouble is, squatting three times a week and hardly doing anything else, is just as idiotic as bench&curls three times a week (except the bench&curls guys usually look better than you do).

Nothing beats normal, traditional training… if you need charts and graphs to justify why you train a certain way (because your results don’t speak for themselves), then you should probably ask yourself why you feel compelled to do this at all.[/quote]

But now you’re opening the huge kettle of fish of what is “normal training”. I’m guessing you’re talking about a generic bodybuilding split, but you’re lying if you’re saying that that’s how everyone has always trained. It’s a good way to train, but I wouldn’t go so far as to describe it as “normal” or “traditional” training.

Also you’re making an assumption that this shit doesn’t work (in your last paragraph) and that everyone who trains this way is just sitting around trying to justify to you why they train. The Texas method mentioned earlier is about as simple as it gets and pretty much anyone can make good progress on it. You’re not only squatting 3 times a week, you’re also benching/pressing 3 times a week, deadlifting once a week or every 2 weeks, doing some back work and doing any necessary assistance work. Starting Strength and the Texas Method do both work. Fantastically. I think it’s important to modify as necessary to adjust them to you’re goals, but a rank beginner can make excellent progress on SS as written and can learn to work hard and move heavy weights.

If a beginner wanted to be bigger everywhere I’d tell them to do SS with some extra chins until they have some time under the bar and SS stops working. Then they can go off and do whatever they want, but they’ll have experienced straining to complete that last rep of that final set and knowing that in 2 days you’ll be doing this again with a heavier weight. It hammers home the idea of progression and working hard to someone new to the game and that’s why I like it. Also it makes people a lot better at squatting :slight_smile:

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[quote]mr popular wrote:
You can TALK about this bullshit all you like, but I have never seen these amazing results to back any of it up.

And I’m not interested in creating a dichotomy between powerlifting and bodybuilding, I think Starting Strength and all these other minimalistic programs are lousy for bodybuilders AND powerlifters… And since when does being a powerlifter mean you can only do 6 exercises and HAVE to edit your training so much just so you can squat three times a week… where is the benefit over just training NORMALLY again?

And I don’t understand why you’re trying to make some convoluted point about great bodybuilders starting as powerlifters, as if that pertains to why squatting 3x a week is a good way to train… NONE of them trained that way, furthermore I don’t understand why you think everybody has to follow these exact programs as they pass through different “levels”.

Some of you guys are so pathologically bitter about highschoolers that text in the gym, and the bench&curls crowd, that you’ve created this entire internet community as a way to rebel against those “fools”… the trouble is, squatting three times a week and hardly doing anything else, is just as idiotic as bench&curls three times a week (except the bench&curls guys usually look better than you do).

Nothing beats normal, traditional training… if you need charts and graphs to justify why you train a certain way (because your results don’t speak for themselves), then you should probably ask yourself why you feel compelled to do this at all.[/quote]

Is it more beneficial for a beginner to add 5-10 lb to the bar every workout (3x per week) or 5-10 lb per week (“normal training”)? Over a 2 month period the 3x/week BEGINNER will have added 60-120 lbs verses the 20-40 he would have added only squatting once per week.

Also you mention benching and curling 3x per week is idiotic but I’m willing to bet a beginner who does it all out and adds 5 pounds per workout will initially make faster progress than the guy who does it once per week. Of course progress will stop as soon as the lifter is able to stress himself more than he can recover from between workouts. That is the whole point of the first graph. It’s funny how you quote the performance levels like they’re just some made up shit that has nothing to do with how a person should train. The FACT is that recovery is not the same for everybody. A guy who squats 405x5 isn’t going to recover for it as easily as a guy who squats 135x5.

If you want explain to us why a “traditional” split routine is better for beginning powerlifters and bodybuilders then please do but don’t justify it with “because that’s how x trained” or “because it’s tradtitional”, get technical with it and tell us WHY it works better. Then please go on and tell us why it works better than another weekly progression program such as the “texas method” mentioned above.

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SS is simply, easy to implement, usually comes with a description and instructions on some of the basic lifts, some basic dieting advice… It’s nice to point beginners that way if you’re sick of explaining stuff to them.

And that’s about it imo…

If I could go back in time, I’d probably squat twice a week unless I wanted to bring my legs up compared to the rest of me…

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When I say normal training, I mean splitting the body up logically to suit your needs, and training every muscle group with a focus on progressive overload. That IS the way every successful lifter has trained. Why do you think a beginner can’t “learn to work hard and move heavy weights” by doing this?

Normal training (whether it is bodybuilding or powerlifting) means not neglecting a whole lot of important shit just for the sake of making faster progress on one arbitrary exercise…

I’ve said it before, if you want to look like a spider with a big butt and create detrimental imbalances in your lifts and your physique, do Starting Strength… otherwise, if you actually want to be strong and look good, train all of your muscle groups equally.

I mean COME ON, you think they should just do some “extra chins” for even development, until they have some “time under the bar and SS stops working”?

Why do you believe this is the best way to “hammer home the idea of progression and working hard” to a beginner?

How is this any better than having a beginner do bench&curls three times a week, with progressive overload? Please, explain to me what the real difference is. Why shouldn’t people just keep adding weight to their bench&curls until it “stops working” before moving on to a balanced program?

And in my experience it doesn’t make anyone “better at squatting”, it reinforces whatever imbalances or bad habits beginners already have when doing squats, by forcing them to squat their heaviest 5 rep max every other day without ample time to learn good technique.

“Traditional” training is traditional because it actually produces results. With all the talk about the magic of these minimalistic programs, you’d think there would actually be hoards of people getting big and strong, but instead what we see every other day is “hi i’ve been doing starting strength but now my back hurts and my bench won’t go up and my arms are still 13 inches and i look like a spider with a big butt… should i add in some more chins? Help!”

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[quote]elano wrote:
Is it more beneficial for a beginner to add 5-10 lb to the bar every workout (3x per week) or 5-10 lb per week (“normal training”)? Over a 2 month period the 3x/week BEGINNER will have added 60-120 lbs verses the 20-40 he would have added only squatting once per week. [/quote] You are assuming that the beginner can’t simply add more weight per workout while training “normally”… Also, the only lift you do three times a week in SS is the squat, isn’t it? What about the rest?
And why can’t I, assuming I’m a beginner again, just train everything, say, twice a week on a 3-way or so? Is that going to give me worse results than doing every lift three times a week, or starting strength?

[quote]

Also you mention benching and curling 3x per week is idiotic but I’m willing to bet a beginner who does it all out and adds 5 pounds per workout will initially make faster progress than the guy who does it once per week. Of course progress will stop as soon as the lifter is able to stress himself more than he can recover from between workouts. That is the whole point of the first graph. It’s funny how you quote the performance levels like they’re just some made up shit that has nothing to do with how a person should train. The FACT is that recovery is not the same for everybody. A guy who squats 405x5 isn’t going to recover for it as easily as a guy who squats 135x5.

If you want explain to us why a “traditional” split routine is better for beginning powerlifters and bodybuilders then please do but don’t justify it with “because that’s how x trained” or “because it’s tradtitional”, get technical with it and tell us WHY it works better. Then please go on and tell us why it works better than another weekly progression program such as the “texas method” mentioned above.[/quote]

Good point. Fuck real world results, everyone who has success with a training method I don’t like is genetically gifted or whatever, after all. Let’s get technical and only give theoretical arguments!
Fuck proof, that’s too… Practical.

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[quote]mr popular wrote:
When I say normal training, I mean splitting the body up logically to suit your needs, and training every muscle group with a focus on progressive overload. That IS the way every successful lifter has trained. Why do you think a beginner can’t “learn to work hard and move heavy weights” by doing this?

Normal training (whether it is bodybuilding or powerlifting) means not neglecting a whole lot of important shit just for the sake of making faster progress on one arbitrary exercise…[/quote]

Don’t bitch about normal training when you only define what you consider it to be after I posted.

How long do you think SS will work for? 3 months of neglecting other bodyparts is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

[quote]I mean COME ON, you think they should just do some “extra chins” for even development, until they have some “time under the bar and SS stops working”?

Why do you believe this is the best way to “hammer home the idea of progression and working hard” to a beginner?[/quote]

Because squats and deadlifts are hard. You can’t not work hard adding weight to your squat 3 times a week. Kurls are a lift that I had to learn to be intense on, what I would have called working hard when I started out would have done nothing for my arm development.

[quote]How is this any better than having a beginner do bench&curls three times a week, with progressive overload? Please, explain to me what the real difference is. Why shouldn’t people just keep adding weight to their bench&curls until it “stops working” before moving on to a balanced program?

And in my experience it doesn’t make anyone “better at squatting”, it reinforces whatever imbalances or bad habits beginners already have when doing squats, by forcing them to squat their heaviest 5 rep max every other day without ample time to learn good technique.[/quote]

If you do the program properly you are starting with just the bar. This gives you a period of a few weeks to nail down form as you try to maintain it with the heavier work. Anyway, by makes you better at squatting I meant makes you stronger at squatting. It does this a lot better than a conventional split. If you think bench & Kurls will have the same effect then all you have to do is see the progress people have made doing SS and compare it to the bench & Kurl crowd in the same time period.

Again with the traditional stuff, the TM is about as traditional as lifting gets AFAIK. There are plenty of people with good results, almost none of them into bodybuilding. Look up the dude from Grayskull training, he’s a pretty good example of SS and milk. I agree that it’s not optimum as a long term program for a bodybuilder, but for a complete beginner to lifting I don’t think you can do much better. I think some people forget how far they’ve come since they started and can’t appreciate how shit they once were.

If someone has done nothing but one run of SS and that is their entire exposure to lifting then of course they are going to have small arms. Once they’ve stalled out (in a small number of months usually) then they can Kurl and CGBP all day if they want. There’s nothing stopping you from doing some Kurls during the SS program (what I said about modifying it to your goals earlier), so that’s not a huge issue anyway.

I really don’t care to get into this as it won’t affect my lifting one iota, but I’ll post again if this is still going in a day or 2.

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[quote]mr popular wrote:
When I say normal training, I mean splitting the body up logically to suit your needs…

…if you actually want to be strong and look good, train all of your muscle groups equally…

…“Traditional” training is traditional because it actually produces results…

…With all the talk…[/quote]

Speaking of all the talk…

Show us what four years of ‘normal training’ did for your physique

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[quote]JayPierce wrote:
mr popular wrote:
When I say normal training, I mean splitting the body up logically to suit your needs…

…if you actually want to be strong and look good, train all of your muscle groups equally…

…“Traditional” training is traditional because it actually produces results…

…With all the talk…

Speaking of all the talk…

Show us what four years of ‘normal training’ did for your physique[/quote]

I don’t have a recent picture, but here is what I looked like from late 2006 up until about a year ago since you’re curious.

To see what I look like now, use your imagination to picture the last shot with more muscle and less fat lol

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[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
You are assuming that the beginner can’t simply add more weight per workout while training “normally”… Also, the only lift you do three times a week in SS is the squat, isn’t it? What about the rest?
And why can’t I, assuming I’m a beginner again, just train everything, say, twice a week on a 3-way or so? Is that going to give me worse results than doing every lift three times a week, or starting strength?
[/quote]

Dante has discussed this.

Will a beginner be able to tax his muscles enough squatting that he needs a full week’s rest before training again, or will his stress/adaption/supercompensation cycle be over in about a couple of days because of the light poundages he’s been using in his workout?

If it’s the latter (and it probably is for a beginner), why wouldn’t you want to stimulate your muscles more often to induce more stress/adaptation/supercompensation cycles?

Not to belabor the point, but didn’t a lot of bodybuilders start off in powerlifting? I’ve heard Dante talk about the merits of powerlifting for beginners/intermediates. He’s talked about powerlifters dieting down and beating bodybuilders “time and time again” in one of his threads.

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Not bad. You really can’t see much except your arms, though. In that last pic, you look to be about 18%, which would put your LBM around 165 (if I’m right). If you’re @ ~12% now (smooth, but can still see abs), that puts your LBM around 175? So, I’d say you gained about 50lbs of mass in four years. Not terrible, but I’d expect more from four years of serious training, especially as a teenager. No offense.

I’ve gained 35lbs and lost some fat in the last year and a half, and I haven’t even been training for size. I turned 31 this year. I really wish I’d taken ‘before’ pics, but current ones are in my profile.

I started with starting strength. I think it’s a good program for newbies, but I think that once the trainee hits the first wall, it’s time to switch. I then went to a push/pull split and kept making gains. I tried a couple of programs that weren’t for me, and then I switched to a BB-style split. I still do not follow the normal 8-12 rep hypertrophy range, though.

So, you’ve proven that your method works. But I’ve proven that it can be done by other methods, as well. And there’s probably a better way of doing it than either one of us used…

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[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Good point. Fuck real world results, everyone who has success with a training method I don’t like is genetically gifted or whatever, after all. Let’s get technical and only give theoretical arguments!
Fuck proof, that’s too… Practical.

Not to belabor the point, but didn’t a lot of bodybuilders start off in powerlifting? I’ve heard Dante talk about the merits of powerlifting for beginners/intermediates. He’s talked about powerlifters dieting down and beating bodybuilders “time and time again” in one of his threads.

[/quote]
Some did. But I have not heard of even a single one who did starting strength or even full body 3-4 times a week (except for yates, who did that for a month or so at first before switching to a 2-way… He didn’t powerlift though, unless I’m mistaken… )

Some guys beginning at westside have crazy fast gains, but no full-body, 3-times a week or anything like that is used.

Powerlifting is more than just doing the big 3, or even just “compound movements”. While there are powerlifters who probably do that, most don’t restrict themselves like that… Not even at the beginning.

The main advantage powerlifters may have and thus may beat your average bodybuilder when dieted down (but let’s face it, many don’t…): They usually focus on getting stronger and don’t restrict their nutrient intake unless they want to stay in a weight-class. Now, sensible bodybuilders do that too, of course, but plenty don’t…
Many “bodybuilders” still don’t get that if you have average genetics and want to have big tris, you’ll have to put up big numbers on a few key tri exercises rather than doing 5 pushdown variations for lots of sets each.
And in order to be able to put up big numbers for reps, you can’t just obsess over your abs all year long and eat like a figure girl while training according to crappy internet-article info and slowing down the reps while feeling the burn or whatever.

Basically if you get brutally strong (to the best of your abilities) on two or whatever key exercises per muscle-group, you’ll be one thick mofo.

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[quote]mr popular wrote:
JayPierce wrote:
mr popular wrote:
When I say normal training, I mean splitting the body up logically to suit your needs…

…if you actually want to be strong and look good, train all of your muscle groups equally…

…“Traditional” training is traditional because it actually produces results…

…With all the talk…

Speaking of all the talk…

Show us what four years of ‘normal training’ did for your physique

I don’t have a recent picture, but here is what I looked like from late 2006 up until about a year ago since you’re curious.

To see what I look like now, use your imagination to picture the last shot with more muscle and less fat lol[/quote]

If you want, head over to my training thread and post your current stats, routine, diet etc, let’s see if there’s anything that can be improved.

Lats need to come out more, might be your posing though (lats are a bitch for most people to bring out in poses…)… Good job on getting your arms bigger. I remember what it was like to start with skinny-ass arms at 120 lbs looking like the guy in “the machinist” (though the movie didn’t exist back then) :slight_smile:

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[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Not bad. You really can’t see much except your arms, though. In that last pic, you look to be about 18%, which would put your LBM around 165 (if I’m right). If you’re @ ~12% now (smooth, but can still see abs), that puts your LBM around 175? So, I’d say you gained about 50lbs of mass in four years. Not terrible, but I’d expect more from four years of serious training, especially as a teenager. No offense.

I’ve gained 35lbs and lost some fat in the last year and a half, and I haven’t even been training for size. I turned 31 this year. I really wish I’d taken ‘before’ pics, but current ones are in my profile.

I started with starting strength. I think it’s a good program for newbies, but I think that once the trainee hits the first wall, it’s time to switch. I then went to a push/pull split and kept making gains. I tried a couple of programs that weren’t for me, and then I switched to a BB-style split. I still do not follow the normal 8-12 rep hypertrophy range, though.

So, you’ve proven that your method works. But I’ve proven that it can be done by other methods, as well. And there’s probably a better way of doing it than either one of us used…
[/quote]

That’s because I haven’t been training seriously for 4 years. lol

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[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Not bad. You really can’t see much except your arms, though. In that last pic, you look to be about 18%, which would put your LBM around 165 (if I’m right). If you’re @ ~12% now (smooth, but can still see abs), that puts your LBM around 175? So, I’d say you gained about 50lbs of mass in four years. Not terrible, but I’d expect more from four years of serious training, especially as a teenager[/quote] To be fair, super-skinny guys tend to have trouble gaining weight fast as teenagers… Becomes much easier past 20 y.o. for most of my “trainees” over here, so I’m betting it’s the same for him. [quote] No offense.

I’ve gained 35lbs and lost some fat in the last year and a half, and I haven’t even been training for size. I turned 31 this year. I really wish I’d taken ‘before’ pics, but current ones are in my profile.

I started with starting strength. I think it’s a good program for newbies, but I think that once the trainee hits the first wall, it’s time to switch. I then went to a push/pull split and kept making gains. I tried a couple of programs that weren’t for me, and then I switched to a BB-style split. I still do not follow the normal 8-12 rep hypertrophy range, though. [/quote] When ramping, that only works ok if you use big weight jumps between sets anyway… And straight sets for such high reps are imo only worth doing on PL assistance work (if even, wouldn’t be my choice, but then again I’m not a powerlifter).[quote]

So, you’ve proven that your method works. But I’ve proven that it can be done by other methods, as well. And there’s probably a better way of doing it than either one of us used…
[/quote]
Both of you probably did not do everything right anyway, within your chosen method even. But good job with the gains, each of you.

My offer to mr.popular goes for you as well if you like… Since you’re now training with a split, I may be able to give you a few pointers.

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[quote]mr popular wrote:
That’s because I haven’t been training seriously for 4 years. lol[/quote]

Well, you are doing that now. Wouldn’t be surprised if, over the course of the next 4 years, you went up to 260+, provided that no major set-backs occur (injury, military, whatever).

59

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Good point. Fuck real world results, everyone who has success with a training method I don’t like is genetically gifted or whatever, after all. Let’s get technical and only give theoretical arguments!
Fuck proof, that’s too… Practical.

Not to belabor the point, but didn’t a lot of bodybuilders start off in powerlifting? I’ve heard Dante talk about the merits of powerlifting for beginners/intermediates. He’s talked about powerlifters dieting down and beating bodybuilders “time and time again” in one of his threads.

Some did. But I have not heard of even a single one who did starting strength or even full body 3-4 times a week (except for yates, who did that for a month or so at first before switching to a 2-way… He didn’t powerlift though, unless I’m mistaken… )

Some guys beginning at westside have crazy fast gains, but no full-body, 3-times a week or anything like that is used.

Powerlifting is more than just doing the big 3, or even just “compound movements”. While there are powerlifters who probably do that, most don’t restrict themselves like that… Not even at the beginning.

The main advantage powerlifters may have and thus may beat your average bodybuilder when dieted down (but let’s face it, many don’t…): They usually focus on getting stronger and don’t restrict their nutrient intake unless they want to stay in a weight-class. Now, sensible bodybuilders do that too, of course, but plenty don’t…
Many “bodybuilders” still don’t get that if you have average genetics and want to have big tris, you’ll have to put up big numbers on a few key tri exercises rather than doing 5 pushdown variations for lots of sets each.
And in order to be able to put up big numbers for reps, you can’t just obsess over your abs all year long and eat like a figure girl while training according to crappy internet-article info and slowing down the reps while feeling the burn or whatever.

Basically if you get brutally strong (to the best of your abilities) on two or whatever key exercises per muscle-group, you’ll be one thick mofo.
[/quote]

Right. The last point you made is what we’re getting at: get brootally strong in the key lifts and you can’t help but grow.

Anyways, the SS routine hasn’t been published for very long, so of course none of the pros would have used it. BDU did post it over at IM for a reason in the PP forum (I have to use all these acronyms b/c the mods will delete portions of my post if I don’t). It seems to me that he could have posted something else for beginners if he had wanted to that would have worked better.

But he didn’t.

But SS doesn’t even recommend only doing the big 3. It has assistance lifts (overhead press, pull-ups, chin-ups). You can throw in front squats on one of the squat days. Was anyone suggesting “only do the big 3” on this thread?

Neither is SS really “TBT.” It’s a split. A powerlifting split.

Again, the point is to get stronger and train your muscles as often as possible to set up the stress/adaptation/supercompensation cycle to gain as much as possible.

You see guys in the gym doing tons of sets with tons of different exercises and making very little progress. I wonder why? Seems like the whole things could be simplified. Dante simplified it. But you can’t use his routine until you’ve gained enough strength and mass on other programs.

60

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
You are assuming that the beginner can’t simply add more weight per workout while training “normally”…

[/quote]
I can’t really argue with you, since you’re more accomplished than I am. However I can answer those questions.

The idea of adding 15-30 lbs per week on the squat isn’t as practical as going up in smaller increments throughout the week. Reason being is that for the beginner to get stronger, he/she needs to stress the body enough that it overcomphensates to that particular stress. What I mean is that if they squat 135x5 on monday, since the beginner recovers so quickly, they might have only added enough muscle and neuro-efficiency to lift 145x5 a week later. The beginner can’t really stress themselves enough that it takes a week to recover since they are just not strong enough yet. Also since a beginner can recover within a single off day, it makes more sense to have them increase the weight whenever possible. 135 monday, 145 wed, 150 fri, etc. Going up weight weekly is only wasting time for the beginner.

The whole idea of this thread is (STRESS ON THE BODY) then (TIME NEEDED FOR RECOVERY). Thinking about this as a cylcle, for a beginner this whole process last just 2 days. For an intermediate lifter it is around 7 days, and for the advanced it can be 2 weeks or more to complete the whole stress/recovery “cycle” so that more weight can be added to the bar.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Also, the only lift you do three times a week in SS is the squat, isn’t it? What about the rest?
[/quote]
SS has the lifter alternate the bench and press, and alternate the power clean and deadlift. They can also add in accessory work if they want.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
And why can’t I, assuming I’m a beginner again, just train everything, say, twice a week on a 3-way or so? Is that going to give me worse results than doing every lift three times a week, or starting strength?
[/quote]

You can train that way and will likely get good results. For a beginner, everything works just some things work better than others. Once you (the beginner) hit the intermediate stage it’s time for different programming since recovery takes more time.