Ya Power Movements such as Deadlift, Snatch, Clean and Jerk etc. are harder to work into a Split Routine- Because it works just about every muscle you have.
[quote]monteitis wrote:
I’ve done TBT for about a year with good results, but have recently switched to split training for something new. It’s definitely more fun and it’s nice knowing the muscles I targeted area fully blasted after a workout. Here is my split:
Day 1 - Legs & shoulders (heavy)
Day 2 - Chest & Tri’s (heavy)
Day 3 - Back & Bi’s (moderate)
Day 4 - Off
Day 5 - Legs & shoulders (moderate)
Day 6 - Chest & Tri’s (moderate)
Day 7 - Back & Bi’s (heavy)
Day 8 - Off
Day 9 - repeat[/quote]
Another interesting way to view a split. I like the consideration this program takes for varying intensities of training. A lot of people forget to vary intensities throughout their training.
[quote]norcal_BALLER wrote:
Most People here are saying Upper/Lower Split.
If I did that I wouldnt be able to work all the muscles that I would want to. My routine would be like this.
Upper- Bench Press, Inclined DB Press, Tricep Extensions, Rows, Bicep Curls, Dips, Pull ups, One Hand DB Rows, Upright Row.
Thats WAAAAY too much for me to work with in an hour.
[/quote]
Then do half of those movements on one upper body day, and half the other day. Something like this:
Day 1
Bench Press
Pull Ups
Tri Extensions
Upright Row
Day 2
Incline DB Press
Rows
Dips
DB Rows
And then do curls whenever you want.
I switch between whole body and upper/lower splits. Never really made progress with traditional bodybuilding splits.
[quote]kakugo wrote:
Maybe you shouldn’t make up a total body routine yourself? Follow one made by a person like Chad Waterbury who has put hundreds of people through his programmes and put together what he found was optimal. Run through his programmes a few times, then make up your own. Not only will you have the principles from reading about the programmes, but you might have a better understanding from following them and comparing your experiences with others on a similar programme.[/quote]
I would never take a Chad Waterbury program verbatim and follow it. They are way too limiting. If you know anything about lifting its the general theme of the program that makes it work and makes it different from others.
All those percentages of max dont hold up in my opinion, there are so many other variables to consider. I like some themes that CW uses but Im not going to go around like a zombie following his workouts because he made it. Christian’s stuff gives you more leeway to fit it in to using what you already know works for you.
[quote]disciplined wrote:
If someone has sore lats after benching, that is sad.
If someone has sore glutes after deadlifts, they have poorly conditioned glutes.
In my case, my hips are very high before the bar has even been raised off the floor. And my glutes have never been sore from deadlifts.
[/quote]
Disciplined,
I strongly disagree with your previous statements.
If you are benching with a more narrow grip and with your elbows in, like many notorious powerlifters advocate, your lats do get heavily involved.
The following days after a good bench session, my chest, shoulders, triceps and lats are equally sore; yet I don’t consider my lats weak. If you add my bodyweight and the weight of the plate hanging from my torso when I do pronated pull-ups, I almost lift the same on pull-ups as I do for bench-press.
Also, deadlifting with your hips stuck up high is not the standard method of deadlift. Whether using sumo or regular stances, most powerlifters and strength coaches worth their weight in sand will tell you to extend your knees, hips, and back simultaneously in a deadlift. That will definitely involve your glutes.
Don’t assume that just because someone has different reactions to a lift than you, they are wrong. I don’t know how many times I have had bodybuilding types tell me that I was benching wrong because I didn’t have my elbows flared. Hell, my quads and glutes are sore after a bench day, from driving them into the floor so hard. Does that mean I have weak quads and glutes?
I’m not trying to start a fued, I just wish people wouldn’t be so obtuse when making statements in this forum.
TBT 3x a week. All heavy compounds, but I’m starting to integrate more isolation exercises in.
On my off days I do calisthenics and jump rope for endurance.
[quote]Mike T. wrote:
Its been alot of debate of this. But my question is which do you use? Body-part, or total body. Ive been doing a body-part split for a long time( started going to the gym in may, thats when i really started to work out)(weighed in at about 165)( i was working out with a amature bodybuilder)( now i work out by myself) so i have seen very good results.
I dont have before pic’s so i have posted any at all. I just got up to 210 pounds. I have not updated my profile thing in months and months though. I just swicthed to a total body split a week or so ago, because im not having as much time for the gym. I am doing a 3 a week program, simular to Chad’s TBT. I was wondering what everyone was doing, and how there results were.[/quote]
Im currently doing a routine by Alwyn Cosgrove called Undulating Periodisation. Its calls for an upper/lower split training mon-tues-thurs-fri. Only done one week of the cycle so far, and i think its gona be a good one.
[quote]J.W. wrote:
Disciplined,
I strongly disagree with your previous statements.
If you are benching with a more narrow grip and with your elbows in, like many notorious powerlifters advocate, your lats do get heavily involved.
The following days after a good bench session, my chest, shoulders, triceps and lats are equally sore; yet I don’t consider my lats weak. If you add my bodyweight and the weight of the plate hanging from my torso when I do pronated pull-ups, I almost lift the same on pull-ups as I do for bench-press.
Also, deadlifting with your hips stuck up high is not the standard method of deadlift. Whether using sumo or regular stances, most powerlifters and strength coaches worth their weight in sand will tell you to extend your knees, hips, and back simultaneously in a deadlift. That will definitely involve your glutes.
Don’t assume that just because someone has different reactions to a lift than you, they are wrong. I don’t know how many times I have had bodybuilding types tell me that I was benching wrong because I didn’t have my elbows flared. Hell, my quads and glutes are sore after a bench day, from driving them into the floor so hard. Does that mean I have weak quads and glutes?
I’m not trying to start a fued, I just wish people wouldn’t be so obtuse when making statements in this forum.[/quote]
Hi J.W.,
If you feel like it, you can view some of my benching vids in my personal profile. You can view for yourself what type of technique I’m using I bench. I bench with a powerlifting style. I arch, always keep my butt and upper back on the bench, and my feet don’t move (I don’t get much leg drive due to my toes touching the ground and not my heels, watch my vids and you’ll see for yourself).
That being said, I know what it’s like to lift with a powerlifting style.
Now, I still stand by my statement that if your lats are sore after a bench workout, your lats are poorly conditioned. I do not disagree that the lats are involved in the bench press exercise when performed with an arch and the elbows tucked in (that’s how I bench), but they are not heavily involved.
If we were to do some EMG testing on powerlifting be benchers, we’d see that the lats don’t get nearly the same stimulation during this lift as the tris, pecs, and delts.
Now, after reading your post I did reconsider something and will rephrase something: I imagine it is possible that among a small segment of the population can get a significantly higher degree of lat activation that most of us (again, I’m still exclusively talking about powerlifting-style benching), but that will be the exception to the ‘rule’.
Regarding deadlifts, you can read Dave Tate’s articles (and I think Mike Robertson or Eric Cressey wrote an article about deadlifting… I’ll post the link soon to the article I’m thinking about), they both advocate starting with the hips far from the bar, and high, while maintaining the straightness of the lower back.
That being said, you’re never gonna pull a lot of weight if you don’t have your hips as high as possible (as your flexibility allows) before initiating the lift. All I’m trying to say is that, as with lat activation during benching, glute activation during deadlifts isn’t too high, and if your glutes are getting sore from deadlifting your glutes are probably in poor condition.
Ok I found it:
http://www.T-Nation.com/findArticle.do?article=295prec2
Here is a quote from the article illutrating what I’m trying to get at regarding the deadlift set-up:
4. Hips High: This may seem awkward to some, but when you pull you want your chest up and your hips high at the same time. I use this example for lifters struggling with the concept: Is it easier to do a half-squat or a full squat? This example usually gets the wheels turning and they realize what I?m talking about. The body is in a more biomechanically efficient position if the hips are high from the start. We aren?t doing reverse squats here; we’re trying to pull heavy weights, right?
This isn’t to say that a trainee can’t start with the hips TOO high. We don’t want you to have your knees locked out before the bar has even moved an inch! What you want is to have your hips as high as possible prior to initating the lift while MAINTAINING proper posture.
Make sense?
[quote]disciplined wrote:
Ok I found it:
http://www.T-Nation.com/findArticle.do?article=295prec2
Here is a quote from the article illutrating what I’m trying to get at regarding the deadlift set-up:
4. Hips High: This may seem awkward to some, but when you pull you want your chest up and your hips high at the same time. I use this example for lifters struggling with the concept: Is it easier to do a half-squat or a full squat? This example usually gets the wheels turning and they realize what I?m talking about. The body is in a more biomechanically efficient position if the hips are high from the start. We aren?t doing reverse squats here; we’re trying to pull heavy weights, right?
This isn’t to say that a trainee can’t start with the hips TOO high. We don’t want you to have your knees locked out before the bar has even moved an inch! What you want is to have your hips as high as possible prior to initating the lift while MAINTAINING proper posture.
Make sense?
[/quote]
One problem alot of people have when taking advice is looking at the context it is given. For instance. Dave Tate is telling you the best way to pull alot of weight. Not the best way to strengthen the muscles involved in the lift if that makes sense. A textbook deadlift is not found at powerlifting meets. If you want to powerlift than by all means follow what Dave Tate says because he really knows his shit. However, he is usually not talking about strengthening glutes and lower back with perfect deadlift form, he is talking about how to build yourself up to be able to do as much weight as possible. Now if someone wants to lift for football or basketball, IMO they should be doing textbook deadlifting where your hips are as low as they can be with most the stress on the glutes.
There is a point where you have a maximal amount of stress on the glutes and this is usually as low as you can go and maintain a neutral back. Below this point either your back will round or your knees will come forward, usually a little of both. I would recommend deadlifting at that maximal glute level which is really low because it mimics explosive sport positions better. You will usually get pretty sore glutes and adductors from this…
But Disciplined is right, if you are powerlifting as you get stronger and stronger your form will usually deteriorate into a Romanian Deadlift. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it is still technically a deadlift but it is definitely really shitty form if you are expecting a standard deadlift, but the name of the game in powerlifting or (lift as much as you can with the shittiest form allowable lifting) is simply bringing the bar from the floor to a full standing position. If you want to see the guys with picture perfect form deadlifting a decent amount of weight you are probably going to look at the Clean portion of Olympic lifts, sure its not a deadlift because its explosive but they do much better standard deadlifts than powerlifters do…
Hi Shadow,
Maybe I was being unclear. I will be the first person to admit that powerlifting requirements for a legitimate lift are easier to achive than actual proper and safe technique. As you’ve said, when you go to a meet you’ll see a lot of ugly lifts, but they are still legit.
I am NOT recommending compromising safety or style for the sake of lifting maximal weight. I maintain proper posture even with my hips high. You don’t need to have your butt and hips low prior to initiating a lift in order to maintain the proper, safe, and natural alignment of the lower back.
If you are unable to maintain proper posture with your hips high before initiating the lift, it is an issue of flexibility. Probably inflexible hamstrings and glutes.
Let me just say again that I am NOT recommending raising the hips so high so as to cause an unsafe rounding of the back even before initiating the lift. I am NOT endorsing the style of lifting that you see at many powerlifting meets (ugly knee movement, rounding backs, etc).
Having the hips high, as in a stiff-legged deadlifts, allows you to most efficiently perform the exercise.
Also, my understanding of stiff-legged deadlifting does NOT iunclude a rounded back. I ALWAYS maintain proper posture on every single repetition of every single lift. Whether it’s a stiff-legged deadlift, a front squat, a rack pull or a push press, I ALWAYS maintain proper posture.
And Dave Tate, as far as I know, doesn’t recommend shitty technique when it comes to training. If he endorses rounding the back as part of a training regimen I’d find that strange, unless it’s a very light exercise.
Im not saying anything about powerlifters or Dave Tate and back rounding. Im talking about powerlifting deadlifts which when you get up to maximal weight isnt a standard deadlift, its a romanian deadlift. You were talking about glutes not being sore and this and that. I think that is not an issue of unconditioned glutes but doing a real standard deadlift.
If you do a regular deadlift you will probably be sore in your glutes. I wasnt saying anything about back rounding in regard to powerlifters, just that doing the exercise with proper form for a standard deadlift is not the best way to lift the most weight and this is why glutes are not usually sore.
[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
Im not saying anything about powerlifters or Dave Tate and back rounding. Im talking about powerlifting deadlifts which when you get up to maximal weight isnt a standard deadlift, its a romanian deadlift. You were talking about glutes not being sore and this and that. I think that is not an issue of unconditioned glutes but doing a real standard deadlift.
If you do a regular deadlift you will probably be sore in your glutes. I wasnt saying anything about back rounding in regard to powerlifters, just that doing the exercise with proper form for a standard deadlift is not the best way to lift the most weight and this is why glutes are not usually sore.[/quote]
sigh
Ok, let me try this again… I never ever recommended rounding the back in order to pull more weight. When I talk about maximal weight, I mean within the context of GOOD PROPER TECHNIQUE, which is dependent on PROPER POSTURE. I seriously cannot be any clearer than that.
So, to recap, if you want to pull the heaviest weight possible with proper technique, have your hips as high as possible while MAINTAINING proper posture before initiating the lift.
I never ever said, and never ever WILL say that one should round his/her back in order to pull more weight.
Even Romanian deadlifts are not meant to be performed with a rounded back. At least, not the way I or anyone else I know performs them. When performing Romanian deadlifts you go to your knees, or just a little below, and maintain proper posture (by pushing the butt back and bending at the knees only as much as is necessary).
I do not know of ONE deadlift variation that is dependent on rounding the back. When I talk about conventional deadlfts, sumo deadlifts, rack pulls, pullthroughs, Romanian deadlifts, or stiff-legged deadlifts I am ALWAYS assuming that the lower back is kept in its safe and proper arched position: PROPER POSTURE.
I sure hope this clears up any confusion.
Finally, I want to reiterate that the most efficient way of pulling, for most people anyways, is to have the hips as high as possible while maintaining proper posture before initiating the lift. When performing deadlifts this way, the PROPER way, your glutes will get worked but not heavily taxed. If your glutes are getting sore from deadlifts your glutes are in poor condition, OR, you’re performing deadlifts in a strange way.
[quote]huey.ot wrote:
Shadowzz4 wrote:
Im not saying anything about powerlifters or Dave Tate and back rounding. Im talking about powerlifting deadlifts which when you get up to maximal weight isnt a standard deadlift, its a romanian deadlift. You were talking about glutes not being sore and this and that. I think that is not an issue of unconditioned glutes but doing a real standard deadlift.
If you do a regular deadlift you will probably be sore in your glutes. I wasnt saying anything about back rounding in regard to powerlifters, just that doing the exercise with proper form for a standard deadlift is not the best way to lift the most weight and this is why glutes are not usually sore.
sigh
Ok, let me try this again… I never ever recommended rounding the back in order to pull more weight. When I talk about maximal weight, I mean within the context of GOOD PROPER TECHNIQUE, which is dependent on PROPER POSTURE. I seriously cannot be any clearer than that.
So, to recap, if you want to pull the heaviest weight possible with proper technique, have your hips as high as possible while MAINTAINING proper posture before initiating the lift.
I never ever said, and never ever WILL say that one should round his/her back in order to pull more weight.
Even Romanian deadlifts are not meant to be performed with a rounded back. At least, not the way I or anyone else I know performs them. When performing Romanian deadlifts you go to your knees, or just a little below, and maintain proper posture (by pushing the butt back and bending at the knees only as much as is necessary).
I do not know of ONE deadlift variation that is dependent on rounding the back. When I talk about conventional deadlfts, sumo deadlifts, rack pulls, pullthroughs, Romanian deadlifts, or stiff-legged deadlifts I am ALWAYS assuming that the lower back is kept in its safe and proper arched position: PROPER POSTURE.
I sure hope this clears up any confusion.
Finally, I want to reiterate that the most efficient way of pulling, for most people anyways, is to have the hips as high as possible while maintaining proper posture before initiating the lift. When performing deadlifts this way, the PROPER way, your glutes will get worked but not heavily taxed. If your glutes are getting sore from deadlifts your glutes are in poor condition, OR, you’re performing deadlifts in a strange way.
[/quote]
Dude what the hell are you talking about did you read What I just said? I never said in any of my posts that you were advocating rounding of the back or that powerlifters or Dave Tate or anyone says rounding of the back is ok to do. I never said anything about you talking about the rounded back. I was saying usually your back will round if your hips drop below a certain point. Again, I was not referring to you. What I was saying is that a powerlifting deadlift when up near maximal weight will slowly deteriorate into a Romanian deadlift, not a textbook standard deadlift. But when you are really getting at maximal maximal weights I am pretty sure there is some back rounding. Again, I am not saying that you or anyone is saying back rounding is ok, but that powerlifting deadlifts at maximal weight is actually a romanian deadlift and alot of times the back will round a bit. I think Cressey mentions this somewhere.
Shadow & D,
I didn’t mean to start a debate and hijack the thread. The original point I was making was that having sore lats from benching and sore glutes from deadlifting does not indicate weak lats and glutes. I felt that the statements D made were a little obtuse and presumptuous, in that he did not allow for different body types and lifting styles in his thinking. Now that the subject has been picked apart, you can see my point even better.
I do standard deadlifts for the overall benefit of the lift- not for powerlifting meets. That leaves me with sore glutes (along with sore just about everything else, too)! My lats also get sore as hell from bench days. That does not, however, mean that I have weak glutes and lats.
Let us all just agree to disagree and let this thread return to its original purpose- TBT or Split training.
[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
Dude what the hell are you talking about did you read What I just said? I never said in any of my posts that you were advocating rounding of the back or that powerlifters or Dave Tate or anyone says rounding of the back is ok to do. I never said anything about you talking about the rounded back. I was saying usually your back will round if your hips drop below a certain point. Again, I was not referring to you. What I was saying is that a powerlifting deadlift when up near maximal weight will slowly deteriorate into a Romanian deadlift, not a textbook standard deadlift. But when you are really getting at maximal maximal weights I am pretty sure there is some back rounding. Again, I am not saying that you or anyone is saying back rounding is ok, but that powerlifting deadlifts at maximal weight is actually a romanian deadlift and alot of times the back will round a bit. I think Cressey mentions this somewhere.
[/quote]
Ok, but the only thing I endorse is that is your back ends ups rounding, it means you went past your maximal lift with good technique.
For example, a maximal bench press is a bench press that you can perform with good technique, not sloppy movements and uneven lifting.
I don’t like your language of ‘deterioration’ to a Romanian deadlift’. I don’t think that a deadlift performed with the hips high prior to initiating the lift is a deterioration of deadlifting. It’s improvement of technique, if you ask me. Mind you, proper posture must be maintained.
My own personal standards for lifting which I recommend to others are of a more stringent level than competitive powerlifting regulations for a legal lift.
[quote]J.W. wrote:
Shadow & D,
I didn’t mean to start a debate and hijack the thread. The original point I was making was that having sore lats from benching and sore glutes from deadlifting does not indicate weak lats and glutes. I felt that the statements D made were a little obtuse and presumptuous, in that he did not allow for different body types and lifting styles in his thinking. Now that the subject has been picked apart, you can see my point even better.
I do standard deadlifts for the overall benefit of the lift- not for powerlifting meets. That leaves me with sore glutes (along with sore just about everything else, too)! My lats also get sore as hell from bench days. That does not, however, mean that I have weak glutes and lats.
Let us all just agree to disagree and let this thread return to its original purpose- TBT or Split training.[/quote]
Fair enough, if performing deadlifts in a manner where the butt is low prior to initiating the lift, I can see someone’s glutes getting sore from that style of deadlifting.
I cannot see, however, someone’s lats becoming sore after a bench workout. To me, that says weak and poorly conditioned lats, no matter how you perform your bench pressing.
[quote]huey.ot wrote:
I cannot see, however, someone’s lats becoming sore after a bench workout. To me, that says weak and poorly conditioned lats, no matter how you perform your bench pressing.
[/quote]
OK, I guess a 200 lb guy who does pronated pull-ups with a 45 lb plate hanging has weak lats.