Split Routines Superior!

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
41

I had been doing total body style workouts for a while.

I suspect my ability to recover is less than my ability to trash a whole lot of muscle in one session.

However, I could only really make it to the gym 3 times a week, so it seemed to fit my schedule well and let me hit everything fairly well.

Now that I have more time, I’ll be going to the gym every day, warming up, doing sets of one serious compound and then related sets of one or two isolations.

This way, I suspect I’ll trash a smaller amount of muscle per workout and have muscles at various stages of recovery. I’ll see how it works… I’m not really concerned about what any guru says, and I’m looking forward to giving this a shot.

42

I have always been a big fan of the split routine. It allowed me to accrue 50lbs of pure muscle naturally when I first started training.

Nobody can say that I would, or wouldn’t, have seen better results using a full body w/out so conjecture or speculation provides no solution. However, if you look at the type of clients the writers on this site train, and the type of programmes they recommend, it may be possible to see a reason for their promotion of full body routines.

I don’t think that many people will argue that training movement patterns, not muscles, is superior for athletic performance. Now many of the writers here train athletes of various kinds, some of a very high calibre. The chances are that most of these athletes have superior genes and therefore when subjected to training that is sports specific (probably of a full body variety) they realise very positive improvements.

Would this not cause the said writers to look at full body workouts with a slightly subjective outlook? Whilst I appreciate that they are very well educated men, it is still possible for their vision to become blurred from experience.

CT is a very respected coach, yet if you kept an eye on Da Freak thread there was no mention of him changing Da Freak training routine to that of a full body variety, even though he often recommends them in his articles. Why not? I believe that it is because he realised in this case that a split routine was the most beneficial.

That is the crux of the matter, it’s horses for courses and why mend something that isn’t broken.

Conclusion - Splits for BBers and PLers and movements patterns for athletes and WLers. The general population may as well try both and see which works best!!

Wheels

43

[quote]Pound4Pound wrote:
So…will anyone EVER determine exactly how and why muscles grow and create a routine or set of guidelines to OPTIMALLY develope your phisyque as fast as possible??[/quote]

I do believe that scientist will come up with a complete understanding of why muscles grow, but I do not believe that will completely change how we workout.

Human beings, by our nature, are incredibly inquisitive and have come up with A LOT of differnet traning methodologies. Just looking through the training articles on this site will show 100’s of methods.

IMHO the real advances will come in how to improve protein synthesis and recovery without steroids.

I believe that is what CW was/is looking for with P10, maximum stimulation and recovery. However, it would be unrealisting for the whole body. Perhaps optimal training is specilization followed by mainteance work for the rest o the body. Of course, programs like P10 make sense for BBers more than a powerlifter, olympic lifter, or athlete. For most athletes, recovery manipulation of training manipulation is the next great frontier.

44

So what about the great gains people make off of GVT?

Day 1 - Chest & Back
Day 2 - Legs & Abs
Day 3 - Off
Day 4 - Arms & Shoulders
Day 5 - Off

45

I right now am going to share a little secret with you all (for just 29.99… j/k).

The reason why I beleive that has been a movement to full body routines is pretty simple:

When doing a full body routine, you go intot he gym, do squats, deads, bench, row… you’re freaking DONE after an hour. Your body just doesn’t want to do more, your CNS is ready to pack up and go home, so after you do 3-5 sets of each excercise, that’s what you do. GO HOME. To quote the 80’s “Stimulate, don’t An-eye-hilate”

OK, here’s the split routine: you walk into the gym, for arguments sake, it’s ARMS day on Friday, so that way when you go out that night, you have a great pump goin on and can flex the cannons and pick up all the hot bitches.

So you stroll into the gym and start nocking out some curls, tricep extensions, reverse curls, skull crushers, zottmans, kickbacks, hammers curls, whatever. After an hour, your arms have a hyuge pump going on, but hey, you can do more, you have that energy that you can An-EYE-hilate those arms.

So you do more arm work, after a total of two hours gym time, you leave because you realize you’ve got a life to live.

Same goes with Chest, legs, whatever.

I’ve seen countless people doing routines with body part splits, and almost all have the exact same repetitive pattern that they follow, which at first is OK (it’s all about progression).

they might have a 5 day a week body part split, and after they do a decent amount of work to stimulate muscle growth, they keep on doing more sets, drop sets, whatever.

Now, the occaisonal planned-for over-reaching is a good thing. If you take an off week or a light week then next, you can actually make some pretty good progress, but lets face it.

The general gym population doing body part split routines is over-reaching every fucking time they go into the gym. The typical gym nut can actually be seen walking around the gym trying to find a new chest exercise because they’ve just not “An-eye-hilated” their chest or whatever they’re working.

Hello Mike Mentzer. Here’s a dude who saw this and decided to come up with a training philosophy TOTALLY asinine and backwards of what people in gyms were doing, and golly gee, it actually worked a little (remember, most people using split routines over reach all the time, they need less volume to recover, this just all makes sense now, right?)

here we are now with full body routines, and people are making more progress with them than they have for the last few months/years of using split routines, probably for the one simple reason that instead of spending 10-15 hours a week in a gym mutilating their muscle tissue, they are there for 3-6 hours a week, allowing the body to recover a little.

Now, am I saying one is better than the other? NO, but I prefer working the whole body, it works better for me.

46

[quote]steelwheels wrote:
I have always been a big fan of the split routine. It allowed me to accrue 50lbs of pure muscle naturally when I first started training.

Nobody can say that I would, or wouldn’t, have seen better results using a full body w/out so conjecture or speculation provides no solution. However, if you look at the type of clients the writers on this site train, and the type of programmes they recommend, it may be possible to see a reason for their promotion of full body routines.

I don’t think that many people will argue that training movement patterns, not muscles, is superior for athletic performance. Now many of the writers here train athletes of various kinds, some of a very high calibre. The chances are that most of these athletes have superior genes and therefore when subjected to training that is sports specific (probably of a full body variety) they realise very positive improvements.

Would this not cause the said writers to look at full body workouts with a slightly subjective outlook? Whilst I appreciate that they are very well educated men, it is still possible for their vision to become blurred from experience.

CT is a very respected coach, yet if you kept an eye on Da Freak thread there was no mention of him changing Da Freak training routine to that of a full body variety, even though he often recommends them in his articles. Why not? I believe that it is because he realised in this case that a split routine was the most beneficial.

That is the crux of the matter, it’s horses for courses and why mend something that isn’t broken.

Conclusion - Splits for BBers and PLers and movements patterns for athletes and WLers. The general population may as well try both and see which works best!!

Wheels[/quote]

CT never completely disregarded the split routine for bodybuilders. He has said that the ‘optimal’ changes depending on how far out from the competition, and that split routines are appropriate some of the time.

47

Man am I ever glad I posted this! there have been some good, insightful, well-written posts! Great job guys!

I guess it all boils down to the fact that as long as you strive to progressively overload the muscles, don’t overtrain and follow and closely monitor your nutritional intake, it probably doesn’t make much difference whether you do a full-body, 2, 3, 4, or 5 day split!!

48

[quote]CU AeroStallion wrote:
here we are now with full body routines, and people are making more progress with them than they have for the last few months/years of using split routines, probably for the one simple reason that instead of spending 10-15 hours a week in a gym mutilating their muscle tissue, they are there for 3-6 hours a week, allowing the body to recover a little.[/quote]

powerlifters typically spend 3-6 hours a week working out in the gym doing a split type routine…

olympic weight lifters typically spend 10-15 hours a week working out in the gym doing full body workouts…

both systems work for their given sport specific needs…

for a fitness ‘guru’ to emphatically state that only one system works and that if someone makes gains off of a different system they must be genetically gifted or on massive amounts of AAS or both is pure horseshit…

49

[quote]DPH wrote:
CU AeroStallion wrote:
here we are now with full body routines, and people are making more progress with them than they have for the last few months/years of using split routines, probably for the one simple reason that instead of spending 10-15 hours a week in a gym mutilating their muscle tissue, they are there for 3-6 hours a week, allowing the body to recover a little.

powerlifters typically spend 3-6 hours a week working out in the gym doing a split type routine…

olympic weight lifters typically spend 10-15 hours a week working out in the gym doing full body workouts…

both systems work for their given sport specific needs…

for a fitness ‘guru’ to emphatically state that only one system works and that if someone makes gains off of a different system they must be genetically gifted or on massive amounts of AAS or both is pure horseshit…[/quote]

Powerlifters aren’t doing bodypart splits, though. Both olympic lifters and powerlifters are training movements; what Cosgrove and others think is stupid is bodypart splits which force you to do isolation exercises because it’s “such and such” day.

Cosgrove doesn’t dislike bodypart splits becasue they aren’t fullbody workouts, he dislikes them because all exercises worth a crap involve more than one muscle group.

50

[quote]Mr. Bear wrote:
Powerlifters aren’t doing bodypart splits, though.
[/quote]

squats on one day, bench on another day, and deadlifts on yet another day is not a type of split routine?

it sure as hell isn’t a full body workout each day!

[quote]
Cosgrove doesn’t dislike bodypart splits becasue they aren’t fullbody workouts, he dislikes them because all exercises worth a crap involve more than one muscle group. [/quote]

and yet powerlifter do things like tricep ext, hammer curls, band leg curls, ect… for assistance type exersizes all the time…I guess they’re not worth a crap under any circumstances because some ‘guru’ proclaims it?

51

[quote]DPH wrote:
CU AeroStallion wrote:
here we are now with full body routines, and people are making more progress with them than they have for the last few months/years of using split routines, probably for the one simple reason that instead of spending 10-15 hours a week in a gym mutilating their muscle tissue, they are there for 3-6 hours a week, allowing the body to recover a little.

powerlifters typically spend 3-6 hours a week working out in the gym doing a split type routine…

olympic weight lifters typically spend 10-15 hours a week working out in the gym doing full body workouts…

both systems work for their given sport specific needs…

for a fitness ‘guru’ to emphatically state that only one system works and that if someone makes gains off of a different system they must be genetically gifted or on massive amounts of AAS or both is pure horseshit…[/quote]

I’m not talking about powerlifters, I’m not talking about Weightlifters (Oly). I’m talking about the average Joe Gymgoer. Most spend WAY too much time in the gym to put on a lot of mass when using a BODYPART split routine.

Also, as far as movements vs bodyparts… NOT THE SAME THING.

Which brings up another important factoid I’ve gathered. Most powerlifters I’ve met train both upper and lower body each day they do work (bodyparts). This may mean only pressing and squatting one day, and pulling and rowing another (singled out movements wich invariably target the majority of the body).

Same goes for Weight (Oly) Lifters. You can’t do an oly lift without using THE WHOLE BODY. It’s impossible. You can target weak spots, do different exercises, such as drop snatch, power/hang cleans/snatches, front squats, one armed… the list goes on, but in general, they train the whole body every time.

Now, to say that you have to be on a boatload of drugs or ‘genetically gifted’ to succede on one form of training or another is horseshit, you’re right.

But realistically, to use a volume as high as the ‘pro’ bodybuilders use, you DO need to be on a boatload of drugs. This goes for whether or not their using a split or full body routine.

52

[quote]Mr. Bear wrote:
DPH wrote:
CU AeroStallion wrote:
here we are now with full body routines, and people are making more progress with them than they have for the last few months/years of using split routines, probably for the one simple reason that instead of spending 10-15 hours a week in a gym mutilating their muscle tissue, they are there for 3-6 hours a week, allowing the body to recover a little.

powerlifters typically spend 3-6 hours a week working out in the gym doing a split type routine…

olympic weight lifters typically spend 10-15 hours a week working out in the gym doing full body workouts…

both systems work for their given sport specific needs…

for a fitness ‘guru’ to emphatically state that only one system works and that if someone makes gains off of a different system they must be genetically gifted or on massive amounts of AAS or both is pure horseshit…

Powerlifters aren’t doing bodypart splits, though. Both olympic lifters and powerlifters are training movements; what Cosgrove and others think is stupid is bodypart splits which force you to do isolation exercises because it’s “such and such” day.

Cosgrove doesn’t dislike bodypart splits becasue they aren’t fullbody workouts, he dislikes them because all exercises worth a crap involve more than one muscle group. [/quote]

very well said.

53

[quote]CU AeroStallion wrote:
I’m not talking about powerlifters, I’m not talking about Weightlifters (Oly). I’m talking about the average Joe Gymgoer. Most spend WAY too much time in the gym to put on a lot of mass when using a BODYPART split routine.
[/quote]

really? you’ve met them all and know this for a fact?

from what I’ve seen of the average gym goer most spend WAY too much time yapping their mouths and exersizing hardly at all…

could you translate to a simpleton like myself exactly what you mean by this?

I’ve met ALOT of powerlifters and I’ve never met one that typically trains bench and squats on the same day…

what powerlifters are you refering to?

[quote]
Now, to say that you have to be on a boatload of drugs or ‘genetically gifted’ to succede on one form of training or another is horseshit, you’re right.

But realistically, to use a volume as high as the ‘pro’ bodybuilders use, you DO need to be on a boatload of drugs. This goes for whether or not their using a split or full body routine.[/quote]

the same could be said for elite level athletes of all kinds…olympic lifters, pro bodybuilder, powerlifter, gymnasts, pro strongmen, ect…

the volume that these athletes do at elite levels is staggering…

54

First point:

You’ve also met every gymgoer out there and know that they spend way too much time yapping instead of lifting, right? haha… ok, in reality now:

That’s my observation, I think it holds valid otherwise I would’ve have mentioned it.

Second Point:

Movements vs. Bodyparts…

Curls is a movement, bicep is a bodypart. Simple enough. So lets say it’s ARMS day (bodypart) you do different movements to stimulate growth for the arms.

Lets say it’s bench and squat day (movements). You work the tris, pecs, shoulders, quads, hammies, glutes, abs (all of which can be, for the sake of this argument BODYPARTS)… get the idea?

3rd Point:

I’ll be honest, I don’t know any world class powerlifters, it’d be great if I did as I could pick their brains, and even name drop them right here for your own amusement. I have however met some local ones when I was in school. They usually stuck to a split that was similar to max effort, dynamic effort split. It wasn’t uncommon to watch these guys bench 400 and squat 600 on triples. Their reasoning for doing both on the same day, as I was curious… “to switch things up.” Sorry though, I can’t give “famous names.” I can however tell you one was named Terrance (with that kind of name, you can see why he got into lifting iron) and the other guy was named John, or J-Dub.

Now as for your last comment:

You’re sidestepping my comment and making a generalization over to other sports. All I said was that the pro-BBers are using tons of drugs and that’s pretty much the reason they get the results that they do with the gross amounts of overtraining and huge volumes that they use.

Now, many athletes do use lots of volume, lots of practice, that is obvious… but their goals aren’t to become HUGE or really pack on some mass like that of a bodybuilder trying to get big (or a pro trying to STAY big).

55

[quote]CU AeroStallion wrote:
Movements vs. Bodyparts…

Curls is a movement, bicep is a bodypart. Simple enough. So lets say it’s ARMS day (bodypart) you do different movements to stimulate growth for the arms.
[/quote]

you do realize that it’s impossible to isolate the biceps to exersize them right?

for example, when I do hammer curls I’m using my forearms, biceps, front delts, and traps, not to mention shit load various stabilizing muscles over a good part of my entire body…

how is doing hammer curls so far different form doing GHR’s to stimulate my hamstrings, calves, and lowerback?

why are GHR’s a ‘good’ exersize while a supposed isolation exersize like hammer curls a ‘worthless’ exersize?

sounds like Terrance and J-Dub are having a good time…

still…99.99% of powerlifter (especially the ones that are at the elite levels) don’t typically squat and bench on the same day if they are not at a meet…

you know what this mean? let me explain it to you…

POWERLIFTERS DO NOT SQUAT AND BENCH PRESS IN THE SAME WORKOUT…quit acting as if they do in a lame ass attempt to prove your incorrect point…

[quote]
Now as for your last comment:

You’re sidestepping my comment and making a generalization over to other sports. All I said was that the pro-BBers are using tons of drugs and that’s pretty much the reason they get the results that they do with the gross amounts of overtraining and huge volumes that they use.

Now, many athletes do use lots of volume, lots of practice, that is obvious… but their goals aren’t to become HUGE or really pack on some mass like that of a bodybuilder trying to get big (or a pro trying to STAY big).[/quote]

no, you are side stepping MY point…

my point, in case you failed to get it, is that if a typical non-performance enhanced gym goer attempted to workout like ANY elite athlete (whether they use a split routine or otherwise) they would quickly become over-trained…

so why just point this out as concerns to bodybuilders? if a typical gym goer tried to workout with the same huge volume that an elite level gymnast, strongman, olympic weightlifter, ect…they would fall apart within a few weeks…

you may not know this but elite level gymnast, strongman, olympic weightlifter, ect. use performance enhancing drugs to recover from the huge weekly workload that their level of competition requires too…

56

[quote]DPH wrote:
Mr. Bear wrote:
Powerlifters aren’t doing bodypart splits, though.

squats on one day, bench on another day, and deadlifts on yet another day is not a type of split routine?

it sure as hell isn’t a full body workout each day!

Cosgrove doesn’t dislike bodypart splits becasue they aren’t fullbody workouts, he dislikes them because all exercises worth a crap involve more than one muscle group.

and yet powerlifter do things like tricep ext, hammer curls, band leg curls, ect… for assistance type exersizes all the time…I guess they’re not worth a crap under any circumstances because some ‘guru’ proclaims it?[/quote]

Powerlifters do not use bodypart splits. Just because it is not a full body workout doesn’t mean it is a “bodypart” split. The topic of the thread is which method is better for hypertrophy training. There is no powerlifter who is going to attribute his large hamstrings or triceps to band leg curls or tricep extensions before squats, GMs, and bench variations.

Thus, I should have been more clear in stating that isolation exercises aren’t worth a crap for maximal hypertrophy. Certainly they have their place for prehab, rehab, as supplemental exercises, etc. I figured this would be implied by the nature of the thread.

I train using Westside methods, and am not some Cosgrove disciple, I was just stating that he has nothing against workouts which aren’t “full body,” just simply the designating of a “day” for different bodyparts.

As a side note: I really don’t understand the thinking displayed throughout this thread that one can only use bodypart splits or full body routines. Many programs for hypertrophy are organized by movement plane; and while these are not full body workouts, they aren’t the bodypart splits of which the writers here have been so critical.

57

[quote]Mr. Bear wrote:
DPH wrote:
Mr. Bear wrote:
Powerlifters aren’t doing bodypart splits, though.

squats on one day, bench on another day, and deadlifts on yet another day is not a type of split routine?

it sure as hell isn’t a full body workout each day!

Cosgrove doesn’t dislike bodypart splits becasue they aren’t fullbody workouts, he dislikes them because all exercises worth a crap involve more than one muscle group.

and yet powerlifter do things like tricep ext, hammer curls, band leg curls, ect… for assistance type exersizes all the time…I guess they’re not worth a crap under any circumstances because some ‘guru’ proclaims it?

Powerlifters do not use bodypart splits. Just because it is not a full body workout doesn’t mean it isn’t a “bodypart” split. The topic of the thread is which method is better for hypertrophy training. There is no powerlifter who is going to attribute his large hamstrings or triceps to band leg curls or tricep extensions before squats, GMs, and bench variations.

Thus, I should have been more clear in stating that isolation exercises aren’t worth a crap for maximal hypertrophy. Certainly they have their place for prehab, rehab, as supplemental exercises, etc. I figured this would be implied by the nature of the thread.

I train using Westside methods, and am not some Cosgrove disciple, I was just stating that he has nothing against workouts which aren’t “full body,” just simply the designating of a “day” for different bodyparts.

I really don’t understand the thinking displayed in this thread that one can only use bodypart splits or full body routines. Many programs for hypertrophy are organized by movement plane; and while these are not full body workouts, they aren’t the bodypart splits of which the writers here have been so critical. [/quote]

thanks for clarifying…

I agree with what you’re saying…

I would, however, like to change one sentance:“isolation exercises aren’t worth a crap for maximal hypertrophy.”

should read:“isolation exercises by themselves aren’t worth a crap for maximal hypertrophy.”

‘isolation’* exersizes can help to achieve maximal hypertrophy in conjuction with ‘multi-muscle group’ exersizes…

  • is there really such a thing as a true isolation exersize…for instance, not matter how hard I try, I’ve never been able to use just my bicep or just my tricep…do true isolation exersizes actually exist?
58

To the guys that keep saying powerlifters always use splits:
Yes. Most of them follow upper/lower splits, or squat/bench.
this is not a bodypart split.

And not every powerlifter uses a split. I know many. And what about russia? almost their whole national team uses total body training.

59

[quote]wressler125 wrote:
And not every powerlifter uses a split. I know many. And what about russia? almost their whole national team uses total body training. [/quote]

And they kick ass in IPF meets. A lot of Chinese lifters train 2 or 3 of the powerlifts every session too. They usually dominate the lower weight classes (though there’s been more competition recently). Just as a side note, I’d like to see a comprehensive review of injury rates among the majority of US powerlifters and lifters from other countries who tend to train everything very often (though not always intensely). I would bet they get hurt a lot less often and have fewer nagging injuries.

Just goes to show that someone was right way back in this thread when they mentioned it depends on your goals… SAID principle…

-Dan

60

[quote]wressler125 wrote:
To the guys that keep saying powerlifters always use splits:
Yes. Most of them follow upper/lower splits, or squat/bench.
this is not a bodypart split.

And not every powerlifter uses a split. I know many. And what about russia? almost their whole national team uses total body training. [/quote]

you are correct…I stand corrected…

the russian team members bench and squat in the same workout…and they are damn good lifters…

however, that is certainly not the norm in the US…and the US has produced some damn good lifters also (Ed Coen, Brian Siders for example)…

also, it should be noted, there are very impressive european lifters that do not bench and squat in the same workout…Ukrainian lifter Vitaly Papazov for example http://www.zyworld.com/powerlifting/papazov-training00.htm