Split Routines Superior!

Training Bodybuilding
61

[quote]buffalokilla wrote:
wressler125 wrote:
And not every powerlifter uses a split. I know many. And what about russia? almost their whole national team uses total body training.

And they kick ass in IPF meets. A lot of Chinese lifters train 2 or 3 of the powerlifts every session too. They usually dominate the lower weight classes (though there’s been more competition recently). Just as a side note, I’d like to see a comprehensive review of injury rates among the majority of US powerlifters and lifters from other countries who tend to train everything very often (though not always intensely). I would bet they get hurt a lot less often and have fewer nagging injuries.

Just goes to show that someone was right way back in this thread when they mentioned it depends on your goals… SAID principle…
-Dan[/quote]

Dan,

somehow I doubt that the US lifters hold a monopoly on injuries…

62

[quote]DPH wrote:
Dan,

somehow I doubt that the US lifters hold a monopoly on injuries…[/quote]

Oh, I doubt that too. I just think it’d be interesting to see how those who tend to work everything more often (though less intensely sometimes) fare against those who train more intensely (so to speak) but less often. Seems like the common sense answer would be those who will do a squat type movement on a bench day and a press on deadlift day, for example, would have fewer issues with tight IT bands, glutes, and internal rotators since they’d be taken through a full ROM more often.

Don’t know if that actually is what happens a majority of the time, though.

-Dan

63

You guys got way off track here.

IMO total body training such as done by Russians is WAY better for strength, general conditioning and avoiding injuries.

However, my point was that for pure bodybuilding/hypertrophy purposes, split routines (bodypart splits, not movement splits) simliar to those of the pros only with toned down volume ARE superior!!

Look at all natural, amateur and professional bodybuilders. They all use these routines. The proof is in the pudding my friends!

64

Yes, I believe you are right. Physique-geeks don’t need as much functional training, and as such, splitting the body into muslces/muscle groups instead of movements isn’t a problem, since they don’t need to use their body as one unit. Others lifters, on the other hand, do. And I will bet most people on this site are a combination of both–they want to be hyooge, of course, but they don’t want to be “all show and no go,” as it’s been put.

Also, to whoever said this a while ago, yeah, powerlifters do tricep kickbacks or other such exercises that are isolation or can be considered part of a muscle-split-body routine, but they do them as supplementary exercises, not because they’re splitting their body into parts. They’re just supplementing their main lift.

65

[quote]Pound4Pound wrote:
You guys got way off track here.

IMO total body training such as done by Russians is WAY better for strength, general conditioning and avoiding injuries.

However, my point was that for pure bodybuilding/hypertrophy purposes, split routines (bodypart splits, not movement splits) simliar to those of the pros only with toned down volume ARE superior!!

Look at all natural, amateur and professional bodybuilders. They all use these routines. The proof is in the pudding my friends![/quote]

Just because everyone uses them does not make them superior. Almost everyone who works out, not just BBers, uses a bodypart split. It doesn’t make it superior, it just makes it the way that they train.

66

[quote]Mr. Bear wrote:
Pound4Pound wrote:
You guys got way off track here.

IMO total body training such as done by Russians is WAY better for strength, general conditioning and avoiding injuries.

However, my point was that for pure bodybuilding/hypertrophy purposes, split routines (bodypart splits, not movement splits) simliar to those of the pros only with toned down volume ARE superior!!

Look at all natural, amateur and professional bodybuilders. They all use these routines. The proof is in the pudding my friends!

Just because everyone uses them does not make them superior. Almost everyone who works out, not just BBers, uses a bodypart split. It doesn’t make it superior, it just makes it the way that they train. [/quote]

Once I see a couple people…just a couple…win contests with full-body routines I’ll agree.

67

[quote]Mr. Bear wrote:
DPH wrote:
CU AeroStallion wrote:
here we are now with full body routines, and people are making more progress with them than they have for the last few months/years of using split routines, probably for the one simple reason that instead of spending 10-15 hours a week in a gym mutilating their muscle tissue, they are there for 3-6 hours a week, allowing the body to recover a little.

powerlifters typically spend 3-6 hours a week working out in the gym doing a split type routine…

olympic weight lifters typically spend 10-15 hours a week working out in the gym doing full body workouts…

both systems work for their given sport specific needs…

for a fitness ‘guru’ to emphatically state that only one system works and that if someone makes gains off of a different system they must be genetically gifted or on massive amounts of AAS or both is pure horseshit…

Powerlifters aren’t doing bodypart splits, though. Both olympic lifters and powerlifters are training movements; what Cosgrove and others think is stupid is bodypart splits which force you to do isolation exercises because it’s “such and such” day.

Cosgrove doesn’t dislike bodypart splits becasue they aren’t fullbody workouts, he dislikes them because all exercises worth a crap involve more than one muscle group. [/quote]

Exactly! I’ve never said anything about training the whole body in 1 day. We’re not really talking about TBT, we’re talking about the difference of splitting up movements rather than splitting up random muscles. Train with movements and the muscles will take care of themselves.

I gotta admit that if you’re used to the same split, whether it be bodypart or movement, nearly anything half challenging will bring about a positive result.

So… training biceps for 30 sets or whatever may actually have a positive effect if you’re used to only doing 4 sets of rows for 3 months.

68

[quote]Pound4Pound wrote:
Mr. Bear wrote:
Pound4Pound wrote:
You guys got way off track here.

IMO total body training such as done by Russians is WAY better for strength, general conditioning and avoiding injuries.

However, my point was that for pure bodybuilding/hypertrophy purposes, split routines (bodypart splits, not movement splits) simliar to those of the pros only with toned down volume ARE superior!!

Look at all natural, amateur and professional bodybuilders. They all use these routines. The proof is in the pudding my friends!

Just because everyone uses them does not make them superior. Almost everyone who works out, not just BBers, uses a bodypart split. It doesn’t make it superior, it just makes it the way that they train.

Once I see a couple people…just a couple…win contests with full-body routines I’ll agree.
[/quote]

Ok, most bodybuilders (even the Olympia guys) still use extremely low fat diets in preparation for shows. Does this mean that diets very limited in fats are the best way to lose weight while maintaining muscle mass? Absolutely not; it just means that is the way most bodybuilders tend to diet before shows.

69

[quote]danmaftei wrote:
Too bad they’re inferior for functional training.

Unless you’re a complete physique-geek, listen to Cosgrove and split up your body in movements, not body parts. Horizontal pulling, horizontal pushing, vertical pulling, vertical pushing, quad-dominant leg, ham-dominant leg.

Because legs are half your body, I like to split into pull, push, quad-dominant, ham-dominant routines.[/quote]

so what your saying is, when training purely for looks/aesthetics splits are better

70

Hi guys,

Some good points made on both sides, and it really is an intriguing thought about “not being able to truly isolate a muscle”.

With that in mind, then it brings up the question of “why then would anyone even try to split their workouts into bodypart specific exercises”? The reason seems to be recovery. If you ask most newbies “why do you want to do a body part split?” they will reply that “it’s because if you train a muscle more than once a week, it’ll get overtrained and you won’t grow”. In other words this theory has really permeated the public’s mind.

This is where Waterbury’s articles really challenge the mainstream assumptions about what is optimal for building muscle. Does the body really need 7 days to recover? Is training so infrequently really optimal for building mass?

If it’s not, if perhaps someone says that 3 times per week (say a full body routine) is better, why? This also brings up the question of recovery abilities.

Many will claim that those who get good results from “doubles” and other high frequency routines are just “genetically gifted” in terms of recovery abilities. But, is it possible that others could drastically improve their recovery abilities and therefore make better progress from an increase in frequency? I personally think it is.

The question is then, what is the optimal frequency for training a muscle per week. Is it once a week, or as many as 8 times per week like Waterbury’s BNF routine. I think that ultimatley the individuals current levels of recovery ability, and training experience, as well as the duration of workouts and types of training protocol utilized all play a part in determining the answer to this question. That could be why splits work well for some while more frequent full body workouts work better for others.

Of course, many lifters who have always done splits and have gotten good results on them seldom are willing to open their minds and experiment with such radically different training protocols. And I really can’t blame them, after all “if it aint broke, don’t fix it”.

Finally, about the comment that (paraphrasing) “elite level gymnast, strongman, olympic weightlifter, ect. use performance enhancing drugs to recover from the huge weekly workload that their level of competition requires too…” I don’t believe this is true in many cases. Sure there are some elite level athletes who use performance enhancing drugs to speed recovery, but to make a gross generalization like that is wrong. And, at least according to Coach Christopher Sommer, “To my knowledge, there’s never been an incident of a gymnast testing positive for steroids. For a competitive gymnast, the extra size and bulk that steroids provide would be a decided disadvantage in a sport where the athlete with the highest relative strength (strength-to-bodyweight ratio) is often the one who comes out on top”.

Also, the fact that steroids often account for an increased risk of connective tissue injury, due to the fact that the connective tissues adapt at a much slower rate than do muscle fibers (especially when anabolics are involved), is another reason why I doubt gymnasts use steroids. Straight arm movements such as iron cross, planche, inverted cross, etc… place a tremendous strain on the connective tissues. If steroids were involved, elite level gymnasts would probably get hurt a lot more doing these movements.

Good training,

Sentoguy

71

Can anyone arguing here take a look at this article:Full Body vs. Split Training- Is One Really Better Than the Other? (by Joel Marion)
that should stop all the arguments.

I think both have benefit, i start as a beginner using Arnold’s 20set per bodypart split routines, and i make gains, later in my life i try some of the full body programs in T-Nation, i also make gains, BUT my arm size DECREASED!!! when i go back to bodypart splits, my arms get back to their previous size.

So for me, i’ll keep doing bodypart split until i make no gains, then i will do some full body training to shock the body.

72

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Good Stuff [/quote]

Dead On.

73

i read an article on dragon door promoting full body workouts rather then body splits. The guy that wrote it posed the arguement that the more muscles trained in a session the greater the endocrine reponse, and from what i understand this results in greater amounts of test being released by the body. Obviously in a full body split that includes movements like squats, deads, chins, etc. The endocrine response is going to be much higher then a chest and bi’s workout. The author also made the claim that body splits only really came into popularity around the same time as steroids started to come into use in bodybuilding (50s and 60s) and programs found in workout texts before that were all pretty much full body, i dont kow how accurate his dates are with steroid use as i dont know all that much about the history of steroid use in bb. Apparently with steroids one muscle group could be trained much harder then usual and recover faster etc, meaning that greater emhpasis could be put on particular body parts. i know ive read that arnie trained his calves 6 times a week while he was trying to bring them out, i’d like to see someone who wasnt juicing train them as hard as he was and that often.