[quote]Atomic Dog wrote:
And lastly, at the last minute, I decided against getting that “Muscle and Fitness” logo tattooed on my ass.
[/quote]
Yeah, dude. That picture of Arnold doing his side chest shot was a MUCH better choice for your ass. 
[quote]Atomic Dog wrote:
No one here thinks M & F is evil. No one thinks they’re guilty of corrupting youth. As far as we know, they are not funding anti-American activities or supporting terrorists. They do not fund pornography.
[/quote]
WHAT?!? You are implying those who fund pornography is evil?!?
[quote]Ajax wrote:
And what in the world were you doing reading Muscle and Fitness in the first place? [/quote]
Anytime someone mentions that they read M&F comments like the above usually follow. This is evidence that T-Nation does not simply categorize M&F as “softcore”, they actually incourage people against reading M&F. “He said my small brain and big teeth made me the perfect candidate since I could chew through 1000+ pages of BS every month and my tiny brain wouldn’t get bored by the sheer drudgery of it”. this quote was taken form the ghost wolf column in which magazines such as M&F are reviewed. This is evidence that both the readers and the writers of T-Nation oppose magazines such as M&F.
I still dont agree with the fact that Biotest is supporting magazines which they say are full of BS. There are other ways to “convert” M&F readers. There are other ways to increase the Biotest revenue, M&F is not the only way.
Does no one else agree that this ad is hypocritical?
Correct me if I am wrong… but doesn’t the advertisement link to Biotest.net and not T-Nation.com?
We want more Grow! flavors, we want Prime Time, we want free articles, we want double-tap… this stuff costs $$$… let’s be thankful we don’t have to pay for it!
Hell, if T-Nation started charging membership most of us would pick up the tab to still have access to this place. Would you rather pay a membership fee here or have them advertise?
Lastly, what do you think allows us to have access to all the cooler versions!!
[quote]vroom wrote:
Glad,
Selling out is not spending money to advertise your business.
Now, if T-Nation starts sporting a big M&F logo and accepts money for displaying it and then starts writing articles about how great M&F is, then you might have something to talk about.
How about letting Biotest operate as a business so we can continue to have this little playground they provide?[/quote]
You are right selling out is not spending money to advertise your business. But they are giving money to a publication which they constantly criticize and which they claim constantly gives erroneous advice.
Would you agree that giving erroneous advice is a problem? Then are they not aiding the problem.
I am in now way saying that T-Nation is the problem, I realize how valuable this site is and I hold it in very high regard. I am not complaining about how Biotest runs their business. I am simply questioning a decision they made. A decision which i agree will benefit them greatly. However I still believe it is hypocritical and it is in no way related to the betterment of the weightlifting society as some of you have argued.
[quote]TriGWU wrote:
We want more Grow! flavors, we want Prime Time, we want free articles, we want double-tap… this stuff costs $$$… let’s be thankful we don’t have to pay for it!
[/quote]
We are paying for it… do you think that T-Nation runs out of the goodness of their heart? It is our money that we spend on products that pays for the forum… The forum is one huge marketing tool that happens to be a wonderful asset for all parties, but a marketing tool none the less.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
I saw a 4 pg ad about Spike in Muscle and Fitness. I understand this is a business but why would the people at T-Nation, many of who always criticize this magazine, want to give them financial support in return for add space?
I guess on one side Biotest products will become more mainstream and T-Nation will profit financially from that. On the other hand the T-Nation readers whom have constantly been taught to laugh at these sort of publications are now left to wonder why T-Nation has sold out.[/quote]
Why were you reading M&F in the first place. We’re suppose to laugh at these publications remember?
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
I saw a 4 pg ad about Spike in Muscle and Fitness. I understand this is a business but why would the people at T-Nation, many of who always criticize this magazine, want to give them financial support in return for add space?
I guess on one side Biotest products will become more mainstream and T-Nation will profit financially from that. On the other hand the T-Nation readers whom have constantly been taught to laugh at these sort of publications are now left to wonder why T-Nation has sold out.[/quote]
As long as they never shut down this website or make us start paying for it, or fire all of the contributors they can advertise their products anywhere they friggin want.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
vroom wrote:
Glad,
Selling out is not spending money to advertise your business.
Now, if T-Nation starts sporting a big M&F logo and accepts money for displaying it and then starts writing articles about how great M&F is, then you might have something to talk about.
How about letting Biotest operate as a business so we can continue to have this little playground they provide?
You are right selling out is not spending money to advertise your business. But they are giving money to a publication which they constantly criticize and which they claim constantly gives erroneous advice.
Would you agree that giving erroneous advice is a problem? Then are they not aiding the problem.
I am in now way saying that T-Nation is the problem, I realize how valuable this site is and I hold it in very high regard. I am not complaining about how Biotest runs their business. I am simply questioning a decision they made. A decision which i agree will benefit them greatly. However I still believe it is hypocritical and it is in no way related to the betterment of the weightlifting society as some of you have argued. [/quote]
This reminds me of those anti-drug ads they used to run that would trace your purchase from the drug-dealer all the way to anti-American terrorists.
Do you know that some of your tax money went to that troop that abused the war prisoners. Do you support abusing war prisoners?!
OMG, I can’t speak to you. Sell out.
Let’s be realistic…
What magazine would you like them to advertise in!?
[quote]TriGWU wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong… but doesn’t the advertisement link to Biotest.net and not T-Nation.com?
We want more Grow! flavors, we want Prime Time, we want free articles, we want double-tap… this stuff costs $$$… let’s be thankful we don’t have to pay for it!
Hell, if T-Nation started charging membership most of us would pick up the tab to still have access to this place. Would you rather pay a membership fee here or have them advertise?
Lastly, what do you think allows us to have access to all the cooler versions!![/quote]
I am very thankful T-Naiton is free. I feel very privaledged to have found this site. I am not saying Biotest should not advertise. Everyone seems to think that advertising in M&F is the only way to spread the word about this great site and its great products.
Biotest made a good move for their company. If M&F is worthy of Biotest’s money than why is not worthy of their praise.
I only started this thread because I thought it would be a good discussion, I am against neither T-Nation or M&F.
Something else that confuses me is why M&F actually let Biotest adveritse in their magazine. They must have no clue how their magazine is perceived here at T-Nation.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
vroom wrote:
Umm, sounds to me like it is called advertising.
Apparently, if you advertise, people might hear about your products and purchase them.
Yes I too have heard of this. That is why I wrote that I understand T-Nation is a business. However, it would be hard to argue that placing an ad in Muscle and Fitness is not hypocritical. For me T-Nation stood for a no bullshit, testosterone driven website with morals. T-Nation is still a great website and it has a lot of valuable information but this act of hypocracy has let me down a bit. I know a lot of people will defend and maybe a few will feel as i do.[/quote]
The hard-core market is their target. That is why the majority of their advertising, especially on their website is geared towards that demographic.
A business cannot simply ignore changing trends because they don’t want to by hypocritical, that’s a good way to go out of busines.
They realize the market is changing as fitness becomes more mainstream in society and as that demographic (40-50yr old, overweight) grows and at a considerable rate because we’re talking about the baby-boomer generation, you have to find a way to tap into that market. You can bet your a*? that you’re competitors are.
Besides, does Biotest have to offer this website to us? Do they have to offer it for free? Do they have to pay for pictures of all the hot women? No. Why the website, because it keeps us coming back and ordering more of their products.
It does have other benefits at the same time and we all take full advantage of it and definitely appreciate. The main strength driving Biotest, Marketing.
And They Are Good At It
gladiatorsteer,
If M&F claimed financial hardship and Biotest or T-Nation made a donation to help support it, then I’d be wondering along the same lines you are. But a fair exchange of money for publishing the ad is hypocritical? Nonsense.
Think of it as dropping pro-democracy pamphlets over Taliban-ruled Afghanistan. Did we do it because we supported the ruling party? No. We did it because we wanted to show their followers that there was a better way.
Or think of it as Jesus among the sinners, if you like. The Biotest message must go where it is needed.
Now, read what I wrote a second time (because I am sure you just skimmed it and were already trying to think of a response rather than absorbing the message), and then think on this: How would YOU increase business and bring more traffic to this site and your products? You’d go to a large pool of people interested in these topics, like the readers of the widely circulated M&F.
Now, would you seriously tell your individual writers to stop poking fun at M&F, because you are buying ad space there? Why worry? M&F obviously doesn’t mind; your mockery is public, they could find it easily, and yet they publish your ads anyway. If M&F doesn’t care, why should you? Besides, TC’s and Ghost Dog’s/Wolf’s columns are written by guys who don’t speak the official party line for Biotest.
On many levels, your fears of hypocrisy are groundless.
It’s not like M&F is going to say “No we don’t want your money because you are mean to us.”. They don’t care. And advertisimg there is not selling out, its buying an audience. Given M&Fs sales of mags it’s a good buy too.
[quote]TriGWU wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
vroom wrote:
Glad,
Selling out is not spending money to advertise your business.
Now, if T-Nation starts sporting a big M&F logo and accepts money for displaying it and then starts writing articles about how great M&F is, then you might have something to talk about.
How about letting Biotest operate as a business so we can continue to have this little playground they provide?
You are right selling out is not spending money to advertise your business. But they are giving money to a publication which they constantly criticize and which they claim constantly gives erroneous advice.
Would you agree that giving erroneous advice is a problem? Then are they not aiding the problem.
I am in now way saying that T-Nation is the problem, I realize how valuable this site is and I hold it in very high regard. I am not complaining about how Biotest runs their business. I am simply questioning a decision they made. A decision which i agree will benefit them greatly. However I still believe it is hypocritical and it is in no way related to the betterment of the weightlifting society as some of you have argued.
This reminds me of those anti-drug ads they used to run that would trace your purchase from the drug-dealer all the way to anti-American terrorists.
Do you know that some of your tax money went to that troop that abused the war prisoners. Do you support abusing war prisoners?!
OMG, I can’t speak to you. Sell out.
Let’s be realistic…
What magazine would you like them to advertise in!?[/quote]
I do not directly get to chose where my tax money goes. Biotest chose to buy that add space. Perhaps sell out is too strong of a phrase. I did not mean it in the general sense. I did not mean that Biotest/T-Nation has become commercially soft-core.
The best explanation i have read is that T-Nation is a big marketing tool. I know understand this and i should have know better than to believe T-Nations primary purpose was to provide useful information.
You have it slightly wrong…T-Nation’s primary purpose IS to provide useful information… That is how it is such a successful marketing tool… When people trust a company and believe in it, they will support it…
It is not a marketing tool that provides information, it is an information provider that serves as a marketing tool… A subtle but important difference.
Let me take a shot at this.
Everyone (individuals and companies) must make a value-judgement before every decision. When judging people/companies there are usually aspects of both good and bad - however from the point of view of the valuer, the total sum is always either good or bad - it can’t be exactly in the middle and it can’t shift back and forth without new aspects.
So when Biotest did a value-judgement for advertising in M&F it came up positive. When you do it it comes up negative. Maybe each is basing his judgement upon different facts - but the point is that each has different standards of what gives value to himself.
So now that your standards are revealed to be different then Biotest you must now reassess your judgement. If it’s bad enough you will no longer read T-mag or support Biotest. It’s obvious that most readers agree with Biotest’s decision - though that doesn’t make yours wrong as each of us has different standards.
For example - I think the U.S. is the best country in the world, does that mean it can’t be improved - no, but until my value-judgement ceases to be positive I will live here. I know some people have moved to the north, as based on their standards that is necessary.
Expressing disagreement and trying to reason and convince others is perfectly acceptable - if most of T-Mag thought your way and were willing to stop buying Biotest because of it, Biotest might rethink its decision. But that is not the case.
So I guess my point is that from your standards it is hypocritical, but from just about everyone else, it isn’t. That doesn’t make you wrong, just your standards are different. So you are entitled to your opinion and are allowed to act upon it as you see fit. But I don’t find their action hypocritical.
A big deal out of nothing. T-Nation is free, Biotest isn’t. Now pay your bills.
Gladiatorsteer,
Thanks for the thread. Very interesting thoughts throughout. I don’t know about the rest of the country(s) but I can now go down to my local Wal Mart (which is not to far from Biotest Labs) and pick up a bottle of Fahrenheit for women or HOT-ROX. There was no advertising except the product itself.
My first thoughts were twofold: One was that this is a good thing because hopefully the general public will figure out that there is a better product available and two I thought how nice it would be to have such access to other Biotest products like TRIBEX, M, Spike and the products.
Also, in the quest to make a profit, that’s exactly where I’de be selling my product, right next to the Weider, the Eas, the hydroxycut and the other stuff.
Sheesh. It’s just business. If this is the most controversial business decision Biotest makes they won’t even make a footnote in the Aggresive Businessman’s Strategies Monthly.
Gladiatorsteel,
Just wanted to drop you a line and see how everything is going in fucking LaLa-Land.
Advertising in a magazine does not equal endorsement. If I take out an ad for someone to buy my car, am I endorsing the paper that the ad is in? No. Use your head.