Spidey: Back in Black

Training Training Logs
481

As I am newer to lifting than you Spidey, I won’t venture any advice regarding your programming and such. What I will say is that having a log of ones training online that people can follow and comment on offers both advantages and disadvantages. One the one hand a person can receive quite a bit of excellent advice. On the other hand one can receive quite a bit of excellent advice.

I believe that this community absolutely allows someone to progress further and with less errors than if they only had access to books or a local gym environment. Think crowd sourcing for weights.

I also think that the feedback changes how we might normally progress or train. For example, once I started logging my training my training changed. I sometimes push harder than I should so that I can report good progress online. This can be good or bad.

My only comment to you Spidey is that even with this community and all the great feedback and knowledge it represents we still have to ‘own’ our training plans. So whether you use a trainer or not, follow a certain program or piece of advice or not, in the end you are the sovereign of your own training and I think you should ultimately decide what to do without regard to others approval. Take in all the advice but make a decision, see how it works for you and progress from there.

Cheers,
Needa

482

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Thank you everyone, I seriously appreciate all advice and help. Somethings I’ve decided are:

*I get rattled when I get a new weight I’ve never handled before in my hands. I know that’s everyone, but I hadn’t benched over 200 lbs for about 4-5 weeks, so even un-racking 230 felt heavy.
*I’m going to talk to Omar, but my DL goes up no matter what I do. Squat and Bench went up the most when using multiple rep ranges frequently. Not that these were strong numbers, but I could Squat 275x17 and Decline Bench 255x6 when doing basically nothing but a few big movements. However, I’d always burn myself into the ground, so that’s where Omar would be great.
*Benching, MAY go back to heels off the ground, at least on these low poverty benches. At least I can get some leg drive then. [/quote]
275x17?! Wow, that’s nothing to sneeze at Spidey! I’m not familiar enough with Omar to have an opinion on him (not that any of the posters in this thread are questioning him as a coach), but this is YOUR training and passion, so do whatever you feel best about. While I agree that Whiteflash’s minimalist approach does have it’s merits, don’t let anyone make you feel like you’re an idiot for paying for programming. I pay for coaching through The Strength Guys, and have never made better progress

483

[quote]pwolves17 wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Thank you everyone, I seriously appreciate all advice and help. Somethings I’ve decided are:

*I get rattled when I get a new weight I’ve never handled before in my hands. I know that’s everyone, but I hadn’t benched over 200 lbs for about 4-5 weeks, so even un-racking 230 felt heavy.
*I’m going to talk to Omar, but my DL goes up no matter what I do. Squat and Bench went up the most when using multiple rep ranges frequently. Not that these were strong numbers, but I could Squat 275x17 and Decline Bench 255x6 when doing basically nothing but a few big movements. However, I’d always burn myself into the ground, so that’s where Omar would be great.
*Benching, MAY go back to heels off the ground, at least on these low poverty benches. At least I can get some leg drive then. [/quote]
275x17?! Wow, that’s nothing to sneeze at Spidey! I’m not familiar enough with Omar to have an opinion on him (not that any of the posters in this thread are questioning him as a coach), but this is YOUR training and passion, so do whatever you feel best about. While I agree that Whiteflash’s minimalist approach does have it’s merits, don’t let anyone make you feel like you’re an idiot for paying for programming. I pay for coaching through The Strength Guys, and have never made better progress [/quote]

I hope my comments didn’t come across as dismissive or degrading to Spidey, or even Isuf. Hadn’t heard of him 'til this log, but have seen a few of his vids. Seems like a cool guy, pretty strong and sounds knowledgeable. But, sometimes people aren’t the right fit for one another. And, continually paying someone to provide something that isn’t the right fit is silly when there are hundreds of free alternatives. I’ve told Spidey for months he has killer potential, and everything he’s been doing is in now way a waste as long as he learns from it, I just hate to see him constantly spin his wheels on overly complicated shit when there are much, much easier ways.

484

Thank you everyone who commented, has helped straighten me out, a lot, seriously.

Omar has been awesome, really helped with diet (reverse dieting particularly) more than anything, and got me back to lifting ‘heavy’ again. I’ve made some decent gains with him (back to 200 lbs and leaner than ever before being).

I will likely move on, though, simply because I’ve hired him for about 6 months now, and it’s time I moved on anyways. Will go back to what has worked in the past for me. Will likely do Big Beyond Belief again, though it’s 6 days a week which is always hard for me to gain on (the 4x a week plan for BBB I just don’t like). I made a solid 5-day BBB style thing before, liked it, but never gave it much of a shot. Will post that in the next day or so for ya’ll to see I suppose. I think I make the most progress with high frequency, and get stronger through volume and density manipulation, not just ‘adding weight to the bar’.

I have noticed I’ve been irritable and tired last week or so, and I haven’t had a deload in some time. Did some light shit the last few days, will likely do that for the end of the week, and then start on a new plan.

Thank ya’ll for keeping me in check, though.

485

So BBB, I made a ton of progress in regards to reps. But when I was hitting 275x17, I still couldn’t get 315 for more than a single. So I still need to ‘tweak’ it to match my strength goals. Also, I never Benched, OHP, and DL’ed on it. I did variations of those lifts, but not all of them. Having to tweak and adjust things.

If ya’ll want I can post what I’m thinking, but I’m not sure if it’s a good idea. ‘Too many chefs in the kitchen’ idea. All I know is this time I’m doing what I think works for me, and having confidence in my own ability to program.

486

"All I know is this time I’m doing what I think works for me, and having confidence in my own ability to program. "
Gains will come

487

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
So BBB, I made a ton of progress in regards to reps. But when I was hitting 275x17, I still couldn’t get 315 for more than a single. So I still need to ‘tweak’ it to match my strength goals. Also, I never Benched, OHP, and DL’ed on it. I did variations of those lifts, but not all of them. Having to tweak and adjust things.

If ya’ll want I can post what I’m thinking, but I’m not sure if it’s a good idea. ‘Too many chefs in the kitchen’ idea. All I know is this time I’m doing what I think works for me, and having confidence in my own ability to program. [/quote]

Why don’t you run 5/3/1, or designer athletes by Robertson, or max strength, minimal equipment by Gaglione, or any number of the awesome pre-set free programs on here? That would eliminate all of your “anxiety” and let you focus on just getting in the weightroom and working.

488

@ Chobbs: Thanks man

@WF: Well all 3 of those programs are quite similar to what Omar had me on, which while solid, didn’t seem to get me as far as I’d like. the Gaglione one has more lifts then I would like (basically going to be cutting everything down to 2 lifts per BP), and 5/3/1 and DA seem to lack the frequency I would like. MaazerSmiit made a really good point that stuck with me:

I was making a good deal of progress last year. I stopped because I got told by others i needed to use Mountain Dog if I wanted to be to get big. One consistent thing, whether it’s been my Squat earlier, or even when working with Jake this summer, I make progress on hitting something 3x a week, with less exercises. I’m getting back to my ‘roots’ I guess I would say, which is a Big Beyond Belief/DC style of workout that is about 45 minutes, consists of 2-3 large movements for a lot of volume, 1-2 ‘pump’ lifts, and then hitting that body-part again in 48 hours.

Just trying to let ya’ll see where my mind is right now.

489

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
@ Chobbs: Thanks man

@WF: Well all 3 of those programs are quite similar to what Omar had me on, which while solid, didn’t seem to get me as far as I’d like. the Gaglione one has more lifts then I would like (basically going to be cutting everything down to 2 lifts per BP), and 5/3/1 and DA seem to lack the frequency I would like. MaazerSmiit made a really good point that stuck with me:

I was making a good deal of progress last year. I stopped because I got told by others i needed to use Mountain Dog if I wanted to be to get big. One consistent thing, whether it’s been my Squat earlier, or even when working with Jake this summer, I make progress on hitting something 3x a week, with less exercises. I’m getting back to my ‘roots’ I guess I would say, which is a Big Beyond Belief/DC style of workout that is about 45 minutes, consists of 2-3 large movements for a lot of volume, 1-2 ‘pump’ lifts, and then hitting that body-part again in 48 hours.

Just trying to let ya’ll see where my mind is right now. [/quote]

Makes total sense. I just threw out some strength focused programs from the site. The difference in those vs what you’ve been doing is straight sets vs ramping to one top set (minus 5/3/1 obviously). The top set thing never made sense to me and I’ve always gotten smaller and weaker doing it. If you know what works and enjoy doing it, knock it out. Don’t feel obligated to try any program just 'cause someone you “look up to” told you it’s the bee’s knees.

490

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

Makes total sense. I just threw out some strength focused programs from the site. The difference in those vs what you’ve been doing is straight sets vs ramping to one top set (minus 5/3/1 obviously). The top set thing never made sense to me and I’ve always gotten smaller and weaker doing it. If you know what works and enjoy doing it, knock it out. Don’t feel obligated to try any program just 'cause someone you “look up to” told you it’s the bee’s knees.
[/quote]

I’m with ya on the top set thing. I need more volume than that, or at least that’s what has worked for me in the past.

Did a workout today to just see where I was with higher-ish reps. Workout was very quick, but an example of that I’ll be doing.

Flat BB: 2 mins rest
175x2x8
165x7
155x8

Chins: 2 min rest
BWx4x8-10

OH Rope Extension: 45s rest
4x12-15

Hercules Curls: 45s rest
4x15

Face Pulls: 45s rest
4x15

Boom, done. Quick, simple effective. I’ll type up the whole ‘plan’ I have in a bit. It looks complicated, but it’s more so because I don’t think most have done Big Beyond Belief and know what the idea of the ‘Ramp’ is. But overall it’s very simple.

491

Day 1: Upper Power
Push: 5 sets of 4-7 reps, 90s rest
Pull: 5 sets of 4-7 reps, 90s rest
Triceps: 5 sets of 8-11 reps, 30s rest
Biceps: 5 sets of 8-11 reps, 30s rest

Day 2: Lower Power
Squat Variation: 5 sets of 4-7 reps, 90s rest
Hamstring: 5 sets of 4-7 reps, 90s rest
Delts/Chest Iso: 5 sets of 8-11 reps, 30s rest
Abs + Calves

Day 3: Off

Day 4: Upper Hypertrophy
Push: 4 sets of 8-11 reps, 120s rest
Pull: 4 sets of 8-11 reps, 120s rest
Triceps: 4 sets of 12-15 reps, 45s rest
Biceps: 4 sets of 12-15 reps, 45s rest

Day 5: Lower Endurance
Squat Variation: 4 sets of 12-15 reps, 150s rest
Hamstring: 4 sets of 12-15 reps, 150s rest
Delts/Chest Iso: 4 sets of 15-10 reps, 60s rest
Abs + Calves

Day 6: Upper Endurance
Push: 3 sets of 12-15 reps, 150s rest
Pull: 3 sets of 12-15 reps, 150s rest
Triceps: 3 sets of 15-20 reps, 60s rest
Biceps: 3 sets of 15-20 reps, 60s rest

Day 7: Off

Week 2:
Add one more working set to each lift, reduce rest times by 30 seconds on major lifts, 15s on minor lifts

Week 3:
Add one more working set to each lift

Week 4+:
Drop every rep range down:
Power: 2-4
Hypertrophy: 5-7
Endurance: 8-10
Also, add 60s to every rest period and drop 2 working sets from each lift. Do this until progress stalls.

Workout Days:

Upper A:
Flat BB
Chins
OH Rope Extensions
Hercules Curls

Upper B:
OHP
Row variation (not positive yet)
Neutral Grip Incline DB Press
Rope Curls

Lower A:
Front Squat:
Hamstring
Flies
Calves + Abs

Lower B:
Back Squat
Hamstring
Laterals/Swings
Calves + Abs

NOTES on Hamstring: Will likely just keep Deadlifts on â??Powerâ?? Day no matter what, and use SLDLâ??s for endurance days. However, Front and Back Squats will be alternated to it both rep ranges.
Also, face pulls on every upper body day.

Will basically rotate upper body days A/B/A/B etc. Lower body A/B/B/A/A/B so they both Squat variations get hit in different rep ranges.

This is similar to BBB in a lot of ways. I did have the idea of lower rest times further and ‘ramping’ for one more weak, but 30 seconds rest between big movements would be like a large cluster/rest-pause set, which I do like, but I feel will kind of shit on recovery too much.

492

I like the reverse pyramid on teh bench

493

I used to train BBB, and I have some thoughts on moving forward from it:

First, I think BBB works up until around the 400lb squat range for most. I know it did for me: after that, doing 3x/week was too much for me to make progress (although I admittedly increased volume over the prescribed parameters).

I currently train what I guess most would call “Mountain Dog Style.” To me, this has only come to mean, at least on these boards, incorporating certain volume, sequencing, and intensity parameters to a normal bodybuilding split. JM did great branding, but I don’t think he would say that he’s reinventing the wheel either.

IMO at your strength levels, you could probably still run a BBB-type program like you currently are and make great progress if you eat enough.

I think that, at least for me though, the biggest step I’ve made in training “Mountain Dog Style” is to focus on training like an actual bodybuilder insofar as I focus on working individual muscles in particular ways. That said, I’m of the view (and in the clear minority) that folks should achieve some certain level of strength development before moving to that “MMC” style of lifting, if for no other reason than that getting fairly strong is a pretty good proxy for understanding one’s body and how it works–both biomechanically and in terms of growth. I recall a few years back a guy named Lonnie was on these boards who’d been lifting for like 10 years and had never cracked a 300 squat because he spent so much time and energy trying the “next latest and greatest” thing that came up on these boards, then went on to compete as a bodybuilding competition at less than 165lbs at 6’ tall. IMO that’s just a huge waste of time and energy.

I guess that’s all just a long way of saying that I think your going back to the BBB-type style is a good decision and one that, with proper recovery, will pay off in the future.

494

[quote]chobbs wrote:
I like the reverse pyramid on teh bench[/quote]

Is that what that is?

Basically, my ‘first’ set is the one I’ll try and set a PR on every time, but after that I just try to use as much weight as I can while staying in the rep range (it was 8-11 yesterday, as you saw only hit 7 with 165). Basically going to one rep shy of failure on every set.

495

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:
I used to train BBB, and I have some thoughts on moving forward from it:

First, I think BBB works up until around the 400lb squat range for most. I know it did for me: after that, doing 3x/week was too much for me to make progress (although I admittedly increased volume over the prescribed parameters).

I currently train what I guess most would call “Mountain Dog Style.” To me, this has only come to mean, at least on these boards, incorporating certain volume, sequencing, and intensity parameters to a normal bodybuilding split. JM did great branding, but I don’t think he would say that he’s reinventing the wheel either.

IMO at your strength levels, you could probably still run a BBB-type program like you currently are and make great progress if you eat enough.

I think that, at least for me though, the biggest step I’ve made in training “Mountain Dog Style” is to focus on training like an actual bodybuilder insofar as I focus on working individual muscles in particular ways. That said, I’m of the view (and in the clear minority) that folks should achieve some certain level of strength development before moving to that “MMC” style of lifting, if for no other reason than that getting fairly strong is a pretty good proxy for understanding one’s body and how it works–both biomechanically and in terms of growth. I recall a few years back a guy named Lonnie was on these boards who’d been lifting for like 10 years and had never cracked a 300 squat because he spent so much time and energy trying the “next latest and greatest” thing that came up on these boards, then went on to compete as a bodybuilding competition at less than 165lbs at 6’ tall. IMO that’s just a huge waste of time and energy.

I guess that’s all just a long way of saying that I think your going back to the BBB-type style is a good decision and one that, with proper recovery, will pay off in the future.[/quote]

The point about Squatting 3x a week is exactly why I knocked it down to 2x a week, and alternating back and Front Squats, so that as my numbers go up, I’ll have a while before I have to worry about it being to much. Plus, the only other thing about BBB I wasn’t great about is that I sacrificed progress on the other lifts for the Squat, and as ya’ll can see, legs are more developed than any part of my upper body.

I still treat arms and delts as ‘MMC’ muscles and hit them with lighter movements (as you can see in my split), but main focus is still the larger lifts. Lonnie actually still posts on here if it’s who I’m thinking of, and he’s very helpful and well-respected around here. But I do understand where you are coming from.

You’ve run BBB before, what do you think of my set-up? I feel it’s a bit more ‘difficult’ that BBB’s first ramp, but the extra rest day helps with that. Any input you have I’m all ears.

496

Lower Endurance

Back Squat: 3 mins rest. Fuck me this was hard. So out of shape, haven’t done Squats over 6 reps in roughly 6 months
255x15
225x12
185x15 lololol

SLDL’s: 3 min rest. Will only use straight weight with DL variations. DL is probably the lift I’m ‘least’ worried about, so will not push it (as much) and it’s variations as much as other lifts
205x3x12

Cable Flies: 60s rest
3x16-20

Abs + calves

Welp, this was difficult. Very tiring, about puked. Difficult to keep ‘tight’ for longer sets. I’ve also went to not really fully locking out most reps, at least the high rep stuff. I will on lower rep things, but I feel locking out kind of puts a bit of stress on my joints, so pressing and squatting sooooo many sets over the week, locking out every rep will kind of take it’s toll.

Also, ya’ll can see I’m alllll the slow twitch. lol. 255x15 was ‘hard’, but more cardiovascular wise, I could have widowmakered it to 20+ probably. But a 355 Squat was the hardest thing I ever. lol. Whatever.

I’m right around 200 lbs now. May up macros to 500/200/100 to stop the impeding damage these workouts are going to do to me lol

497

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

I was making a good deal of progress last year. I stopped because I got told by others i needed to use Mountain Dog if I wanted to be to get big. One consistent thing, whether it’s been my Squat earlier, or even when working with Jake this summer, I make progress on hitting something 3x a week, with less exercises. I’m getting back to my ‘roots’ I guess I would say, which is a Big Beyond Belief/DC style of workout that is about 45 minutes, consists of 2-3 large movements for a lot of volume, 1-2 ‘pump’ lifts, and then hitting that body-part again in 48 hours.

Just trying to let ya’ll see where my mind is right now. [/quote]

Hey spidey,

I don’t post much but I have been sorta feeling the same way. Was thinking about going back to CTs indigo program but BBB sounds like something I’d enjoy. Do you have the PDF of it?

Joe

498

x2 on simpler programming… everyone gets so caught up in programming like it matters so much when really what matters is whats inside of you and what youre willing to do to reach the utmost level of success. although im deffinetely one of those 1 top set assholes lol. I feel like I can put 100% effort into one set and push beyond and just push reps and weight every time but when I do volume I get worn out and have to save myself a little just to do a few sets which is good for bodybuilding purposes but trying to get as strong as possible is DEFFINETELY intensity based IMO

499

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

You’ve run BBB before, what do you think of my set-up? I feel it’s a bit more ‘difficult’ that BBB’s first ramp, but the extra rest day helps with that. Any input you have I’m all ears. [/quote]

My honest opinion? I think your setup looks bad for the point you’re at. Couple of reasons why:

  1. You are mixing in a lot of themes and concepts that you are borrowing from various training protocols and methodologies, each of which serve different masters.

  2. This is more related to earlier posts about MD training, but as to technique, you have no use right now for things like Mountain Dog intensity techniques. I can remember being in a sort of similar situation to yours when I encountered the whole MD thing: I was doing my 13-15 sets in the 330s and thought I was ready to move on to the next thing.

Think of the MD-type and other advanced lifting techniques as tools that you can save for later when you’re actually ready to use them and they can serve a purpose. There are still certain techniques that I think make sense but that there is no reason for me to incorporate yet because I am still progressing with simpler protocols. For example, arms have always been a lagging point for me and are responding now to having their own day with some basic intensity techniques.

Now, I could include occlusion training at this point, but why would I do that? Frankly, I haven’t hit the advanced point yet where it would really serve the purpose it should.

These techniques are like cardio or taking out carbs in a diet: if your body can respond and adapt to simpler stimuli, you can keep those in your back pocket for when the time comes that they’re actually needed.

  1. You should do an honest assessment of what experience point you are at. I say this not in an attempt to demean but instead because I remember facing the realization at an earlier point and it sucking, frankly: I had to realize that I was still a beginner to barely-intermediate. Even your 275x17 squat high mark is still barely intermediate territory. I’m not saying there’s a hard cap on when someone has built that base of strength needed to utilize more advanced programming concepts, but if you’re using 155 pounds for legit bench press sessions and squatting 225…ever…, then you’re probably still a beginner.

That’s not a reason to get bummed out though. For me personally, I’m glad to know that I still have a somewhat defined set of training protocols (eg occlusion, bands and chains, etc) that I still haven’t even touched because, frankly, I haven’t really had to yet. Yesterday’s leg session, I just started including heel-elevated smith machine squats. That, combined with high rep back squats, sldls, and some leg press were enough to leave me smoked. So I have all those more advanced techniques for a later time, when I actually need them.

There’s a reason I think BBB is a perfect intermediate program: it teaches to work within the rep ranges of bodybuilding/hypertrophy while still focusing on moving heavy weight. The MMC stuff comes later, when you have enough understanding to know how to get strong in the first place, imo.

Just keep it simple man: you’re still at the point where you should just focus on lifting heavy, eating, and getting stronger. Marathon, not a sprint.

500

[quote]jmoney18 wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

I was making a good deal of progress last year. I stopped because I got told by others i needed to use Mountain Dog if I wanted to be to get big. One consistent thing, whether it’s been my Squat earlier, or even when working with Jake this summer, I make progress on hitting something 3x a week, with less exercises. I’m getting back to my ‘roots’ I guess I would say, which is a Big Beyond Belief/DC style of workout that is about 45 minutes, consists of 2-3 large movements for a lot of volume, 1-2 ‘pump’ lifts, and then hitting that body-part again in 48 hours.

Just trying to let ya’ll see where my mind is right now. [/quote]

Hey spidey,

I don’t post much but I have been sorta feeling the same way. Was thinking about going back to CTs indigo program but BBB sounds like something I’d enjoy. Do you have the PDF of it?

Joe[/quote]

Yeah I do man. Idk how I could really get it to you though, PM’s are disabled