And when I work out, my trainer normally has me do padwork towards the end of the workout- after rounds of jumping rope, shadowboxing, and the heavy bag. Sometimes its earlier, sometimes its later than that.
And what I’ve also found out is that it isn’t that I’m out of breath, even at this time. I run, but not like crazy- do about an 8 min. mile and try to run about twice a week, either that or sprints.
That little amount keeps me going through the whole workout- I never get out of breath.
What does happen, however, is that my muscles wear out, specifically my shoulders, triceps, and calves, and years of going for low reps and one rep maxes has made me have a hard time adjusting here. Now, I’m doing the best I can to up the reps and do more endurance work, but the more I train, the more i BOX, the better I’m getting at NOT getting exhausted. And the more sore I am, the shittier I do, leading me to believe that if I’m ever competitive, you won’t see me lifting more than MAYBE twice a week.
I agree, and very well said. I am stealing your description of “technical excellence work” since I feel it fits much better than just “skill work.”
Irish,
I was always on the same page. It amazes me how when you say something like “do more padwork and sparring to prevent gassing” people hear, “just fight bro” and try to attack you on it. I think that using pads and drills for specific conditioning is not only more effective and will prevent being too tired to realize technique, but gives an opportunity to get 100’s and 1000’s of quality reps in of decent technique. It makes “permanent”.
To anyone,
My real question/problem with this is trying to figure out the proper ratio of “technical excellence” to pressure testing.
If you spend too much time on “technical excellence” it is possible to have outstanding technique that is all but inaccessible in a crisis, I think far too many traditional martial artists and firearms trainers foster this condition.
On the other hand if too much time is spent pressure testing, training while exhausted, and ramping up intensity it is possible to spend all your time developing attitude and physical attributes and still have bad technique. I have seen quite a few reality based self defense guys fall into this trap, along with some traditional martial artists.
I have of course erred both ways, so I am not talking out my ass when it comes to the problems either extreme creates.
I agree, and very well said. I am stealing your description of “technical excellence work” since I feel it fits much better than just “skill work.”
[/quote]
Then give credit to Walt Lysak Jr. He’s the one who I got that specific term from (and I like it more than just skill work as well).
[quote]
Irish,
I was always on the same page. It amazes me how when you say something like “do more padwork and sparring to prevent gassing” people hear, “just fight bro” and try to attack you on it. I think that using pads and drills for specific conditioning is not only more effective and will prevent being too tired to realize technique, but gives an opportunity to get 100’s and 1000’s of quality reps in of decent technique. It makes “permanent”.
To anyone,
My real question/problem with this is trying to figure out the proper ratio of “technical excellence” to pressure testing.
If you spend too much time on “technical excellence” it is possible to have outstanding technique that is all but inaccessible in a crisis, I think far too many traditional martial artists and firearms trainers foster this condition.
On the other hand if too much time is spent pressure testing, training while exhausted, and ramping up intensity it is possible to spend all your time developing attitude and physical attributes and still have bad technique. I have seen quite a few reality based self defense guys fall into this trap, along with some traditional martial artists.
I have of course erred both ways, so I am not talking out my ass when it comes to the problems either extreme creates.[/quote]
Like I said, it’s gonna depend on the individual. Everyone needs some of both, but depending on one’s strengths/weaknesses some people will need more of one and others will need more of the other. I don’t think anyone can give you an exact formula for how much of each one must do and have it apply across the board.
Mwahahahah @ jake shields comment
i love how she sets up that fuck off right hand with that slapping left lol.
FI, too true. Weight training, conditioning exercises etc should be used when there are imbalances in a fighters body, not as a source of the primary conditioning.
Primary conditioning is about repeating the movements necessary as much as possible, as powerfully as possible and as often as possible to increase the efficiency of movement, the neuro-muscular connection and motor pathways needed to economize energy expenditure.
You could perform 100 pull ups in succession but it wont improve how you retract your punches. You could do a thousand push ups in one hit or separated in bunches of 10 with maximal power and it wont increase your punching power or your punching endurance if the systematic motor pathways have not been developed to perform the punches correctly.
I recently started a string based on the fact that I was starting training Muay Thai seriously, and I was scared that all my hard work with weights was going to be wasted. Basically I thought that the strenght and explosiveness would be melted away without hours of conditioning, pad word, bag work, sparring and shadow boxing.
I have now been at this particular gym (which is by far the best I have ever had the privilege to train at) for a little while now. Without a a doubt, fighting Irish is 100% correct.
I’ve spent years lifting weights, and running in order to increase my workload capacity. It’s not that I don’t benefit from the strength I have developed over the years, becasue I do, but when it came down to actually fighting, I would run out of steam pretty damn quickly. So unless I knock the guy out in the first 45 seconds, MY way of training (weight lifting, running, skill work) was only effective at building up strength, and maintaining a basic striking ability.
After a relatively brief period of submitting to the training methods practiced at my gym, I have seen a massive improvement in not only my skills, but my work capacity.
Without repeating everything FightingIrish has said, the way to improve yourself in your particular discipline, is to practise that discipline. Extra weight training and running, WILL show you benefits, but make no mistake, this should come second.
Sorry to burst your bubble guys. In the most frequently cited classical source, “The Polity of the Lacedaemons,” Xenephon insists that the Spartans were not homosexual in the manner of the Boetians and Eleians:
[quote]
I ought, as it seems to me, not to omit some remark on the subject of boy attachments, it being a topic in close connection with that of boyhood and the training of boys.
We know that the rest of the Hellenes deal with this relationship in different ways, either after the manner of the Boeotians, where man and boy are intimately united by a bond like that of wedlock, or after the manner of the Eleians, where the fruition of beauty is an act of grace; whilst there are others who would absolutely debar the lover from all conversation and discourse with the beloved.
Lycurgus adopted a system opposed to all of these alike. Given that some one, himself being all that a man ought to be, should in admiration of a boy’s soul endeavour to discover in him a true friend without reproach, and to consort with himâ??this was a relationship which Lycurgus commended, and indeed regarded as the noblest type of bringing up. But if, as was evident, it was not an attachment to the soul, but a yearning merely towards the body, he stamped this thing as foul and horrible; and with this result, to the credit of Lycurgus be it said, that in Lacedaemon the relationship of lover and beloved is like that of parent and child or brother and brother where carnal appetite is in abeyance. [/quote]
We know how much the Law meant to Spartans. I’d rather listen to an actual contemporary of the Spartans (Xenophon was damn near an honorary Spartan as he was given property unlike their slave-class) rather than some much later off-hand remark from Phillip II of Macedon or rival/Athenian historians.
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
Sorry to burst your bubble guys. In the most frequently cited classical source, “The Polity of the Lacedaemons,” Xenephon insists that the Spartans were not homosexual in the manner of the Boetians and Eleians:
I don’t have any citations handy, but my understanding was that the Spartans shunned the institutional pederasty common in the other city states because they felt that it debased the boy. That was something that was contrary to their societal goals. However, they still practiced homosexual sex for recreation. Just that it was more “equal” in standing between parties. In that light I read Xenophon quote as a condemnation of the sexual roots of the teaching model used in the other city states.
I was always on the same page. It amazes me how when you say something like “do more padwork and sparring to prevent gassing” people hear, “just fight bro” and try to attack you on it. I think that using pads and drills for specific conditioning is not only more effective and will prevent being too tired to realize technique, but gives an opportunity to get 100’s and 1000’s of quality reps in of decent technique. It makes “permanent”.
[/quote]
I agree.
Which is why you should burn the candle by both ends. I think we’re confusing skill work and energy systems work. Do some “technical excellence” training, and other times train when you’re tired. It’s going to depend on your athlete. But There’s a reason damn near every wrestling coach ever uses the conditioning-first method. Most coaches do this because it settles guys the fuck down. At a certain point the coach is just frustrated as fuck and wants to say “we get it you can hit the pad/bag/your partner really fucking hard.” But most skill and technique work requires you calm the hell down and go at a slower pace. No one wants to do that. Most of the time the only (or at least the most efficient) method to slow guys down (ie, EGO-LESS TRAINING) is for the coach to blast them with conditioning work first then to let them get to the technique training.
Thaiboxers here know the difference between a good plumb and the typical american-rough over-muscling plumb. You pull that shit in thailand and they’ll go “ohh good you verrrrry strong…go hit bag…thumbs up you strong!” and then they go about actually learning shit while you stroke your ego on the bag.
Performing technique work while you’re tired is actually very important. Any competitive fighter is aware of the adrenaline dump you get before a fight. This is a large reason why coaches train you after fatigue as well. The adrenaline dump is HARD to simulate. It takes a lot of experience and mental strength to control. Fact is you will fight after that adrenaline dump the same way that you fight after you’re already tired. I can’t emphasize this enough. You WILL resort to whatever your most base instinct is… I’ve seen guys who wrestled get in muay thai bouts and when tired to the point of delusion shoot for a double leg. It’s their most practiced response and THAT is what you will have. I firmly believe that the most overlooked component of this is that most guys don’t shadowbox enough, nor do they shadowbox correctly… But that’s a whole other thing.
Anyway the way I see it (which could be completely fucking wrong btw) is that there’s 3 things you’re really training…
Technical Excellence (Skillwork)
This work should not exceed your GPP level. If you have to go stop, catch your breath to continue then do it. It shouldn’t be blasting yourself into the ground. BUT you should be pushing enough that you are eventually getting into the 80-90% exertion level without breakdowns in your technique.
Energy Systems work
Trained various ways. Basically whatever best emulates the energy demands of your sport. Of course in fighting that basically means EVERYTHING for 3-5 minutes. Most people go straight to tabatas but, you need considerable anaerobic aerobic endurance. Working pads and bags should make up the bulk of this training. Hell I consider anything BUT pad/bag work just GPP.
A good coach or training partner should be there to slap the fuck out of you if your form starts to breakdown. Good training cues are what’s important. It’s like someone telling you “chest up, spread the floor” while you squat. With fighting its too complex/hard to do by yourself and this is why it’s important to have a good coach watch you often.
It’s important to have this so you know at what point in your conditioning your form breaks down, and how tired you need to push yourself in your other energy systems work/gpp. But keep in mind this isn’t necessarily skillwork/technical excellency work. And I wouldn’t push your most complex techniques right now. You don’t do axe kicks for time. A tabata round of Left Hook, right straight for 20 seconds on HARD on the bag, and 10 seconds of straight punches (air, not on the bag as an active rest) will allow you to push your conditioning to the red-line faster than doing 20 spinning back elbows. As a matter of fact videotaping your last round of a conditioning circuit such as the above will tell you a LOT about yourself and how you will REALLY fight when you’re pushed.
Here’s one way to approach and train to exceed your “technical excellence” capacity I’ll give a simple example and you all can extrapolate this to apply it how you like. After your other skillwork:
10 Thai kicks (5 each side, quick)
Sprint 30-40yards
10 Straight Punches
Continue till form starts to breakdown then substitute punches with plyo pushups, and kicks with tuck jumps or jumping lunges. Continue for the rest of the round.
GPP
This is basically EVERYTHING else. If you need more conditioning work, aerobic work, etc this is all gpp. All your bodyweight circuits, olympic lifts, all the crazy “caveman” crossfit shit is all just GPP. Yes you heard me right. All that crazy shit is basically what sled drags are to a powerlifter. Let that sink in. So really whatever you need to do will be VERY individual. And a generally you won’t need a lot of it because you can get what you need from the aforementioned training. All of this should come AFTER the first two things and really, unless you have a glaring weakness or area that needs to be improved I’d venture to say that you may not need GPP at all. BUT it’s the rare case that someone doesn’t have a weak area they need improved or an imbalance that needs correcting. So this is where GPP comes in.
Identify your weak attribute and correct it. Period.
Anything other than that and you’re just dicking around. As much as it hurts my heart to say it, push pressing might not improve your punching power nearly as much as you think. Surely there’s some spillover but again it’s just GPP. As complex as the kinetic linking in a punch is (and identifying the many different kinds of punches, angles, etc) you’d be better served becoming much more efficient at using the strength/power you already have (ie, improve your technique). GPP is time for you to do a shitload of rows because you spend so much time punching… etc.
Another point. And this is something I had to bang into my own head. Strength training is strength training. Don’t get caught up in just lifting weights. You can accomplish your goal a myriad of ways (pistols and box jumps or whatever). I’d venture to say their are more efficient methods but if you’re progressing and getting stronger then I really can’t talk shit. It really doesn’t fucking matter as long as it gets the training effect. You’re a fighter. Overhead squat, pistol, back squat, high bar, low bar, box squat, blah blah. Guess what doesn’t mean fuck-all. Technically as a fighter (especially if you’re not in the UFC or similar level) you probably don’t need that complex of a program anyway. Strength training is a PART of the culture of being a fighter not all of it. it’s much much more complex than just gettin jacked.
Overall point is to have a goal. A priority. There’s too many people worried about shit that doesn’t have fuck-all to do with being a better fighter, they post here, get flamed, and then wonder why.
I don’t have any citations handy, but my understanding was that the Spartans shunned the institutional pederasty common in the other city states because they felt that it debased the boy. That was something that was contrary to their societal goals. However, they still practiced homosexual sex for recreation. Just that it was more “equal” in standing between parties. In that light I read Xenophon quote as a condemnation of the sexual roots of the teaching model used in the other city states. [/quote]
puts fingers in his ears
LA-LA-LA I CAN"T HEAR YOU! SPARTANS AREN"T GAY (Not that there’s anything wrong with that…)
Lol, just messing around.
From my understanding a lot of the other references to gay-sex weren’t any contemporaries of the Spartans or they were historians outside of their own group, often times rivals. The only person who was a contemporary and actually accepted within their group explicitly makes a point that they’re against pederasty says a lot to me. I could be way the fuck off base cause it’s been quite some time since I’ve done any research on spartans been spending my free time on the other faygeleh… Alexander.
[quote]humble wrote:
Primary conditioning is about repeating the movements necessary as much as possible, as powerfully as possible and as often as possible to increase the efficiency of movement, the neuro-muscular connection and motor pathways needed to economize energy expenditure.
[/quote]
Thank you for the response. I am sure that took a while to type and I appreciate it. I get your point of working both, it is just the emphasis on what to work/teach and when is something I am never happy with. Thank you again for your post.
I will concede that even if the Spartans were gay, at least they werenâ??t all faggy about it like the Athenians. As to Alexander, if he was alive today he would be pissed Cher isnâ??t still touring.
I am pleased to see that my ill-informed and newbish post helped to initiate such a considered discussion of the relative levels of assclownery in ancient Hellenic cultures. I really didn’t see that coming, well done gentlemen.
I agree, and very well said. I am stealing your description of “technical excellence work” since I feel it fits much better than just “skill work.”
Irish,
I was always on the same page. It amazes me how when you say something like “do more padwork and sparring to prevent gassing” people hear, “just fight bro” and try to attack you on it. I think that using pads and drills for specific conditioning is not only more effective and will prevent being too tired to realize technique, but gives an opportunity to get 100’s and 1000’s of quality reps in of decent technique. It makes “permanent”.
To anyone,
My real question/problem with this is trying to figure out the proper ratio of “technical excellence” to pressure testing.
If you spend too much time on “technical excellence” it is possible to have outstanding technique that is all but inaccessible in a crisis, I think far too many traditional martial artists and firearms trainers foster this condition.
On the other hand if too much time is spent pressure testing, training while exhausted, and ramping up intensity it is possible to spend all your time developing attitude and physical attributes and still have bad technique. I have seen quite a few reality based self defense guys fall into this trap, along with some traditional martial artists.
I have of course erred both ways, so I am not talking out my ass when it comes to the problems either extreme creates.[/quote]
Just do some hard sparring with somebody above your level.You will soon realize if you need more power endurance or your technique is too slopy or both.
Performing technique work while you’re tired is actually very important. Any competitive fighter is aware of the adrenaline dump you get before a fight. This is a large reason why coaches train you after fatigue as well. The adrenaline dump is HARD to simulate. It takes a lot of experience and mental strength to control. Fact is you will fight after that adrenaline dump the same way that you fight after you’re already tired. I can’t emphasize this enough. You WILL resort to whatever your most base instinct is… I’ve seen guys who wrestled get in muay thai bouts and when tired to the point of delusion shoot for a double leg. It’s their most practiced response and THAT is what you will have. [/quote]
Just quoting this in case people who need to hear it missed it the first time. IMHO, my greatest advantage in all my fights has been that I’ve been training for 6 years to keep my damn hands up, keep my chin tucked, and punch with power no matter how dog tired I am. I’m going to wear you down, and I don’t need rope-a-dope to do it, I can drop bombs for three full rounds.
