So It Seems I'm a Snob

Off Topic
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[quote]MattyXL wrote:
I guess we will agree to disagree on some of your points beans, My dogs at times sleep in my bed, and they know their boundaries, If I say off, they get off,shit one of my dogs will on command pee when I tell him to. but for the most part I enjoy taking a nap with my dogs and having pack animal attributes I dont see any issue with this. I also dont think every dog can be treated the same, most dogs have been bred as companion animals even some working or guardian breeds have had some non marketable attributes weened out because it was not to human kinds liking, many if not most breeds thrive on companionship, affection and being part of the family, I would be remiss if I didnt do more than throw my dog a piece of jerky and say that is all the affection he or she is gonna get. As far as the food control thing goes, that could go for every living thing, I wouldnt love my mom if she didnt feed me, but I believe my dogs are loyal not only for feeding them but from a bond that we have created. I firmly believe that a dog can be in tune with your mood, and feel the Human dog relationship goes further than food, though it obviously has something to do with it.

All in all I feel Humans have for the most part created the dog, There are no wild papillons and dobermans as far as I know and its our responsibility as owners to uphold the bond and the breeds we have created.

NOW on the other hand, all of my dogs will know when I mean business, and know their role, totally agree with being the first in and out, not treating dog with affection when its acting out or out of sorts. A smack in the ass is not out of the question in my book.

my bad, what was this thread about?[/quote]

Outside of the sleep in bed part, we are very much on the same page. I just don’t see as much romance in this whole relationship. This pup rescued me as much as I rescued him, but he is a god, and is 1,000 times happier than when we first got him.

This particular dog I have now could never be allowed to be on the bed, I will let him on the couch when I’m leaving the house or going to bed and he jumps up before I’m out of the room. But he is so quick to “play leader” if we slip it isn’t even funny. I do get down with him, but he doesn’t have the option of getting up with me.

It took me 8+ months to break his separation anxiety, and all 3 trainers we interviewed talked about how surprised they were at how much we had bonded in such a short time when we first got him. This dog loves the shit out of me, and I return the favor. But when it comes to food, I don’t fuck around.

I think people are reading my posts like I neglect my dog and don’t give him enough love, like I beat on him and shit… Love, you bastards should see my wife with this mutt, and he would rip the face off a motherfucker that went at her, lol.

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[quote]Dahollow wrote:
Apparently weighing 230lbs of solid muscle between the three of us does not hold anyone back. [/quote]

More realistic

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[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]MattyXL wrote:
I guess we will agree to disagree on some of your points beans, My dogs at times sleep in my bed, and they know their boundaries, If I say off, they get off,shit one of my dogs will on command pee when I tell him to. but for the most part I enjoy taking a nap with my dogs and having pack animal attributes I dont see any issue with this. I also dont think every dog can be treated the same, most dogs have been bred as companion animals even some working or guardian breeds have had some non marketable attributes weened out because it was not to human kinds liking, many if not most breeds thrive on companionship, affection and being part of the family, I would be remiss if I didnt do more than throw my dog a piece of jerky and say that is all the affection he or she is gonna get. As far as the food control thing goes, that could go for every living thing, I wouldnt love my mom if she didnt feed me, but I believe my dogs are loyal not only for feeding them but from a bond that we have created. I firmly believe that a dog can be in tune with your mood, and feel the Human dog relationship goes further than food, though it obviously has something to do with it.

All in all I feel Humans have for the most part created the dog, There are no wild papillons and dobermans as far as I know and its our responsibility as owners to uphold the bond and the breeds we have created.

NOW on the other hand, all of my dogs will know when I mean business, and know their role, totally agree with being the first in and out, not treating dog with affection when its acting out or out of sorts. A smack in the ass is not out of the question in my book.

my bad, what was this thread about?[/quote]

Outside of the sleep in bed part, we are very much on the same page. I just don’t see as much romance in this whole relationship. This pup rescued me as much as I rescued him, but he is a god, and is 1,000 times happier than when we first got him.

This particular dog I have now could never be allowed to be on the bed, I will let him on the couch when I’m leaving the house or going to bed and he jumps up before I’m out of the room. But he is so quick to “play leader” if we slip it isn’t even funny. I do get down with him, but he doesn’t have the option of getting up with me.

It took me 8+ months to break his separation anxiety, and all 3 trainers we interviewed talked about how surprised they were at how much we had bonded in such a short time when we first got him. This dog loves the shit out of me, and I return the favor. But when it comes to food, I don’t fuck around.

I think people are reading my posts like I neglect my dog and don’t give him enough love, like I beat on him and shit… Love, you bastards should see my wife with this mutt, and he would rip the face off a motherfucker that went at her, lol.

[/quote]

I remember you talking about him at first and how he had food aggression and would walk all over your wife. I know you had to do some serious training with him to get him to understand the people in your house are in charge and he is not. I know you were really worried about him and if you couldn’t fix his issues you were going to have to take him back and that about broke your heart. Wasn’t he returned a couple of times before you got him? That’s pretty traumatic for an animal.

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2816×2112 1.67 MB

[quote]Grneyes wrote:
Wasn’t he returned a couple of times before you got him?
[/quote]

Yeah, and he was going down if we didn’t keep him.

He has some pretty serious scaring the vet said, so someone fucked with this dog pretty bad at some point.

He’s a good mutt though, all he needed was some direction, and my wife’s foot up his ass. (Funny that worked for me too.)

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There’s more than one way to train a dog, it depends a lot on your competence at whatever you do and how the dog is motivated by it.

I have spoken up when I’ve seen dogs mistreated, “I used to have that problem, can I tell you what worked for me?” If you say it like they’re an idiot and you’re awesome, it won’t work.

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The problem here is not with people who comment on others’ inappropriate or unjustified public behavior, the problem is with the “NOT IN MY BACKYARD” tight-asshole American attitude that immediately and without question goes on the defensive as if there was no possibility the way they were acting was wrong.

Either think about what you did and own up to it, or simply move on. That goes for all the people who bashed the OP. He was the only person in that situation who acted reasonably. This whole “DON’T TELL ME HOW TO RAISE MY KIDS” bullshit makes me laugh. Maybe if people actually knew how to raise their kids, they wouldn’t feel the need to get defensive about it?

To the OP: You were right to walk away. It would have made you no better than them if you had engaged in violence or a verbal tirade.

Look, folks. Don’t beat your dog in public. Don’t smack your kid in the restaurant. And if somebody like the OP comes along and tells you to stop, lose the ego. There’s actually other (more important) things in the world than the 3 or 4 living things in your “family.”

The only “snob” is the person who acts as if the public arena is just a wide expansion of his or her personal living room and willingly fails to accept the difference. I.E. most people

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hahaha push

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[quote]MattyXL wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:
Anyone that’s has any real experience with dogs, KNOWS that BG and Beans are absolutely spot-on with their posts. Especially, BG.

[/quote]

I want to make it clear that before conversations with BG, and seeing and loving the dog I have, I would have thought BG and myself were fucking asshole loonys too…

I’m without a doubt the biggest bleeding heart, animal loving MF’er you’ll ever meet, but I’ll never disrespect a good mutt by not treating it like a dog again.

[/quote]

Just curious as to what treating a dog as a dog entails, as this could mean many things, as we always here negative connotation with “being treated as a dog” such as “worked me like a dog” “why are you treating like a dog” and the such. Being the owner of 3 dogs and many dogs before that I consider myself an experienced dog owner with my own strong opinions. Treating a dog like a dog could let a person get away with a lot of what I consider abuse when using a blanket statement like that.

BG btw, someone did reply on this thread to the perceived mistreatment of the dog as “its just a dog” which again can play into the whole treat a dog like a dog statement.[/quote]

To clarify treating a dog like a dog, dogs are not people and shouldn’t be afforded the privileges of such. There are boundaries that should be established and a pecking order. It doesn’t mean “ill treatment”. We may cherish our pets, they may even be considered “family”, but they should not share the same rank and privileges.

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[quote]Dahollow wrote:
So it seems my story is leading it’s own life??

Ok for the record:

1° The dog was on the ground, while the GF tried to pick it up. The dog was on his back playing hard to get, as little young dogs do.

2° The guy picked up the dog en threw it very hard and aggressively in a HARD PLASTIC basket on the front of his bike. The poor dog hit his head on the sides. It was very rough (my friends agreed).

3° at that point I happened to walk there (I did NOT approach him) and said “Dude, can’t you put the dog in that basket in a normal manner?”. Nothing more, nothing less.

4° Then he and his GF went berserk at me.

I have a dog myself and i’ve NEVER hurt him like that. You don’t get to be a dog’s “pack leader” by physically hurting him.

And fuck it, maybe my damn ego got hurt by him not being scared by my size and the fact I had 2 friends with me.

Minding your own business is something you fucking emo bitches love, don’t you?

And yeah I eat lots of meat. Do you need to be a veganist in order to care about animals? I buy my chicken and beef from a BIO store, so at least the animals had some outside life and a humane ending.

Thanks to the few supporters of my action.

[/quote]

EMO bitches? LOL. Yup, you definitely have issues dude.

Judging by the things you write, I’m not sure you’re a reliable historian.

What’s more likely? The dude that is a “solid 230lbs”, that can fit 2 men inside of him, with his two friends (oh the gay imagery), who expects smaller people to fear him (is that what they told you and/or you hoped for when you started lifting weights?) blah blah blah, or the two people that went “berserk” because you made the polite statement you allege. You sound like a dick here, and I bet you’re a dick in person.

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[quote]countingbeans wrote:
It loves food more than you. [/quote]

You bet your ass.

Anyone doesn’t believe this, and thinks their dog would die of some broken heart if it ever had to transfer ownership, and I have a nice friendly bet for you; I’ll take your dog, feed him every day and he won’t even miss you. Reality.

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[quote]roguevampire wrote:
do you think for one second any little dude would dare open his mouth to a much bigger guy if he knew nobody could help him.[/quote]

Yup, I personally know of no shortage of “little dudes” that would slit your fucking throat or shoot you.

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[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]MattyXL wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]Dahollow wrote:
Hi there,

Yesterday I went to town with some friends to grab a drink when I saw a young couple with a little dog (6 months old or something). When we passed by, the dog was not listening to it’s owners. Suddenly the guy grabbed the dog and handled it in a rough manner.

The animal friend in me forced me to say something about it, so I said he shouldn’t do that.

I was shocked to see the damn tree hugger (he could fit in me twice easily) going at me, calling me a snob and that I should mind my fucking business. Even his girlfriend starting going berserk at me…

I didn’t react to their insulting and after giving him the look, I just turned and walked away.

Sure, it’s the smartest thing to do. I didn’t want to risk a criminal record over such a silly fight.

But still, it’s eating at my ego. Apparently weighing 230lbs of solid muscle does not hold anyone back. The thing is, when I see a buffed guy, not a hair on my head would think about bad mouthing him.

So there you have it: defending animal rights is for snobs! [/quote]

dude, good for you for speaking up about animal abuse. I would have said something also. nothing angers me more than people abusing animals. and we humans are fucking savages when it comes to abusing, killing animals. just ask all the whales and grizzly bears we hunted by the millions. that is a true holacaust in my view. why no memorial for them, hmmmmmm? this is a real pet peeve for me.

You should have reminded them that animal abuse is illegal and they might not like it if someone “bigger” than them, started to abuse them. say it with a smile. lol. [/quote]

For clarification purposes when you state “a true holocaust” is there a false holocaust in your eyes? [/quote]

no, there was a holocaust, but why no mention of the millions and millions of whales that were killed over the last many hundreds of years. and please, dont’ say “well, they aren’t humans.” they are living beings, humans are not better than them and don’t deserve any greater sympathy. why no memorial for all the tortured and slaughtered animals. [/quote]

Do you eat meat? Wear leather? Yes? Then SPARE US THIS RAVING STUPIDITY.

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[quote]MattyXL wrote:
I guess we will agree to disagree on some of your points beans, My dogs at times sleep in my bed, and they know their boundaries, If I say off, they get off,shit one of my dogs will on command pee when I tell him to. but for the most part I enjoy taking a nap with my dogs and having pack animal attributes I dont see any issue with this. I also dont think every dog can be treated the same, most dogs have been bred as companion animals even some working or guardian breeds have had some non marketable attributes weened out because it was not to human kinds liking, many if not most breeds thrive on companionship, affection and being part of the family, I would be remiss if I didnt do more than throw my dog a piece of jerky and say that is all the affection he or she is gonna get. As far as the food control thing goes, that could go for every living thing, I wouldnt love my mom if she didnt feed me, but I believe my dogs are loyal not only for feeding them but from a bond that we have created. I firmly believe that a dog can be in tune with your mood, and feel the Human dog relationship goes further than food, though it obviously has something to do with it.

All in all I feel Humans have for the most part created the dog, There are no wild papillons and dobermans as far as I know and its our responsibility as owners to uphold the bond and the breeds we have created.

NOW on the other hand, all of my dogs will know when I mean business, and know their role, totally agree with being the first in and out, not treating dog with affection when its acting out or out of sorts. A smack in the ass is not out of the question in my book.

my bad, what was this thread about?[/quote]

There is no real debate about what is appropriate here. Just because you do your own thing, as many people do, and get by with it, doesn’t mean it’s the best way to go about things. You may think your boundaries are fine, when in fact you just tolerate certain poor behaviors without knowing it. I’m not stating I never “broke the rules” - I have. But there is no real debate about why some of these “privileges” lead to problems. And once you create a problem, you very well may have ruined the dog.

As for “creating the dog”, we created breeds. We domesticated the dog with food and food is the most powerful bond. I don’t think anyone here advocated withholding affection for no good reason. I don’t think anyone here denied you can establish a bond with their dog either. But give your dog to me and let me feed him for a while - he’ll “bond” with me too :slight_smile:

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[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

no, there was a holocaust, but why no mention of the millions and millions of whales that were killed over the last many hundreds of years. and please, dont’ say “well, they aren’t humans.” they are living beings, humans are not better than them and don’t deserve any greater sympathy. why no memorial for all the tortured and slaughtered animals. [/quote]
[/quote]

You’re being very economical. I’m loving it.

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Dog meat is gamey.

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[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Also, hitting a dog is pointless and counterproductive. We’ve taken in abused dogs who cower and piss themselves everytime you raise your voice, hand or pick up something like a newspaper or stick. Some recovered, some never did.[/quote]

Classical correlation/causation fallacy above.

The biggest problem with animal husbandry as it concerns dogs is the pet market, which perpetuates poorly bred animals and the biggest problem is not “physical beauty”, because that’s all most breeders breed for - the problem is one of poor nerves. And this has infected the “working dog” market too such that’s it difficult with some working breeds to get a specimen that will actually perform adequately .

The dogs you describe could have had bad nerves and been a nightmare for any owner hence, “some recovered, SOME NEVER DID”. I’ll say it again (and I have a long working dog background), PROPER physical corrections have their place, but “proper” is usually “sparingly” and “surgical”.

A proper physical correct to a working dog can be the difference between LIFE AND DEATH. For example, you don’t break your hunting dog from chasing cattle, and you will have a dead dog because some farmer WILL shoot your dog, and he’ll be in his legal rights to do so.

Some people confuse physical corrections with a training methodology itself as opposed to a tool in your toolbox if training methods. Some people use harsh physical corrections every time a dog does something objectionable, or doesn’t follow a command. Of course, this is incorrect.

Physical corrections (and there are a wide range of “physical corrections”, ranging from a sharp tug on the leash to restricting air by that same leash) are a tool in your training tool box. With some breeds, there is no room for error when it comes to some behaviors, and therefore “harsh” corrections have their place as well.

It was once said by a very famous and successful trainer that one good harsh correction (when necessary) is less cruel than a lifetime of “nagging” corrections and I agree.

You have described (to the extent your correlation fallacy was accurate) abuse, not proper training, and not proper physical corrections. A properly administered harsh physical correction is not abuse.[/quote]

You’re talking about using a choker collar. I’m talking about people who regularly bash their dogs till they have broken broken bones and internal injuries. One of our dogs lost an eye from a beating she had taken.

Not sure what you mean by ‘poor nerves’ infecting the breeder market. Poorly bred mongrels infect the pet market. Poorly bred(i.e. selected for appearance) thoroughbreds have been a problem for centuries. The modern bulldog is a classic example. When it was no longer used in bull baiting breeders began selectively breeding for appearance.

See comparison in wikipedia between a working bulldog from 1790(oil painting) and a modern bulldog.

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The thing that irks me about “Save The Whales” and “Save The Redwoods” is that the hippies only think about those two things because they’re really big.
Isn’t that Capitalist kind of thinking?

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[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]MattyXL wrote:
Just curious as to what treating a dog as a dog entails, [/quote]

to me, it means:

  1. The animal has clear and consistent boundaries. It is absolutely NOT allowed on the furniture when anyone is home, and NEVER under and circumstance on your bed, NEVER. Home or not. Certain rooms are off limits to the dog, and he is not to be invited into them.

  2. The dog is to be walked every morning, and given the appropriate avenues to allow him/her to exercise. Some lazy dogs will be good with a mile, some smaller dogs less even, but if your dog needs 3 miles a day (mine) and still runs on the lead like a mad man 3 nights out of 7… Well you do what cha gotta do. The dog should also be given the proper toys as to keep him from destroying your shit out of boredom.

  3. Unacceptable behavior is corrected immediately. Your dog does what you say.

  4. You do not, under any situation try and “comfort” a dog. It isn’t a fucking child. You will reinforce it’s panic or obsession. The animal is not to be treated like a person in any way.

  5. Affection & love should be treats, not just shitty cookies. “good boy” and “bad boy” should both be words it “understands”.

  6. Only calm behavior is rewarded. The calm has to last for more than 10 seconds. Thsi is why most people fail at trying to treat bribe a dog, IMO. They reward the dog before he has completely come out of it.

  7. Human walks through all door ways first. even if you have to call the dog back 7 times.

  8. Human dictates where and when you stop on a walk, where and when the dog shits and pisses.

  9. You have to calm, patient and empathic. It is a dog. It isn’t a human. If you lose your temper it will think you are crazy. But you need to light the dog up verbally now and again when it tests you. If you aren’t strong and consistent, it will test you.

  10. If you control the food, you control the dog. It loves food more than you. [/quote]

wehay we got the doy whisperer in the house - are you Cesar in disguise??