Here’s the deal. If you are training hard in whatever fashion you desire to and go to failure/almost then you need to be safe. Either sk for a spot from someone you trust, train in the power rack, or pick a replacement exercise that allows you to train the desired muscle without putting yourself in danger.
Everyone on this site likes to sound real cool and say FREE WEIGHTS ONLY DAWG!! but when you look at the biggest guys some use machines, some use the smith, some train with free weights. But the bottom line is they are training very hard(and have been for a long time, can’t learn that by reading sorry) and I would be willing to bet they are a hell of a lot stronger on that movement(whatever it is) now than they were when they were smaller.
How many of you guys have seen someone smith incline 4-6 plates a side for 6+ reps in good form who had a small chest? Or how about the type of guys who have to manufacture extensions for the hammer strength press machines because the normal machine can’t hold any more 45s for their top sets, are their chests ever small?
You know who’s chest is small and isn’t improving anytime soon? The guy pressing 135-185 who is using the same weight for approximately the same reps he has been for weeks-months-years. And some of those guys lovvvvvvve to come on websites to yell and scream about free weights being better, who are you going to listen to?
I would say yes, lowering your weight for strength sucks. But then we’re letting out this* article in which the pl’ers lift at 60% of their 1rm. That is pretty low. True they don’t go up in the reps. For a powerlifter I was wrong on that take. For a bodybuilder the point is valid.
I’ll choose my words a lot more careful next time. Live and learn;).
It’s not directly the weight, it’s the change in weights. Look at Joe Weider for example, one of his principles is to change the reprange very often to get the maximum gains.
By the way, big (as in muscular) is usually not the same as strong and vice versa.
Given the choice I wouldn’t depend on the Smith as my only or probably even main setup for anything. That said, I also believe that it is far from useless in the right hands and NOT given the choice much progress can be made with it’s proper use. Almost no piece of equipment is entirely useless if utilized with brains and balls.
[quote]GeneralIx wrote:
It’s not directly the weight, it’s the change in weights. Look at Joe Weider for example, one of his principles is to change the reprange very often to get the maximum gains.
By the way, big (as in muscular) is usually not the same as strong and vice versa.[/quote]
By the way, big (as in muscular) is usually not the same as strong and vice versa.[/quote]
I hope this is a joke. Based on your avatar, I have a feeling you’re young, so I don’t want to bust your balls too much, but I’ve seen this become somewhat of a “general consensus,” and it makes me wonder what kind of gyms you guys train at. Or, at the very least, the kind of guy you aspire to be.
[quote]GeneralIx wrote:
It’s not directly the weight, it’s the change in weights. Look at Joe Weider for example, one of his principles is to change the reprange very often to get the maximum gains.
By the way, big (as in muscular) is usually not the same as strong and vice versa.[/quote]
if you bench press 225 every workout for a year do you expect to get bigger?
[quote]anonym wrote:
GeneralIx wrote:
Also more experienced does not equal more knowledgeable. And therefore your argument is flawed. I know guys who’ve trained longer than me, are bigger than me, but know half of what I know.
Seems to me like they only bothered to learn the “half” that produces results.[/quote]
Ah! But this time I chose my words very very carefully. Read back and look at “usually”.
When taking usually into account it translates into this:
Most powerlifters have less muscle mass than most bodybuilders, and that most powerlifters are stronger than most bodybuilders.
[quote]GeneralIx wrote:
It’s not directly the weight, it’s the change in weights. Look at Joe Weider for example, one of his principles is to change the reprange very often to get the maximum gains.
By the way, big (as in muscular) is usually not the same as strong and vice versa.[/quote]
Weider has a valid place in the history of this game, but the “weider” principles are something one could do fine without ever learning the existence of. Weider was a good businessman/promoter, but not much of a training guru in my opinion.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
anonym wrote:
GeneralIx wrote:
Also more experienced does not equal more knowledgeable. And therefore your argument is flawed. I know guys who’ve trained longer than me, are bigger than me, but know half of what I know.
Seems to me like they only bothered to learn the “half” that produces results.
LOL. Classic![/quote]
AMEN!!! LOL!!! I missed this. I don’t mean to pound on this kid, but he just won the “Tiribulus saved this in a document for future illustration” award. If this does not exemplify so much of the debate that goes on around here I don’t know what does.
www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=699538
For some reason, this guy has MUCH MORE mass in his erectors than any other bodybuilder. Wonder why, since he doesn’t train BB-style… maybe it’s because he can DEADLIFT SO FUCKING MUCH?? Maybe its because SIZE AND STRENGHT IS VERY MUCH ALIKE, WHEN EATING ENOUGH
[quote]GeneralIx wrote:
Ah! But this time I chose my words very very carefully. Read back and look at “usually”.
When taking usually into account it translates into this:
Most powerlifters have less muscle mass than most bodybuilders, and that most powerlifters are stronger than most bodybuilders.[/quote]
Sorry but you really should have chosen your words even more carefully. Your statement that “big is usually not the same as strong” is a complete misunderstanding, and one that seems to have become rampant in the fitness industry.
If bigger doesn’t equal stronger, then why are there weight classes in powerlifting/olympic lifting? Because the bigger (more muscular) guys are stronger than the smaller (less muscular) guys.
Perhaps you might want to go search the archives for an article titled “The Dave Tate Project”. That should give you an idea of the kind of muscle a lot of powerlifters are sporting under their insulation.
I know you’re just trying to argue your case, but seriously you’re only digging your hole deeper. The point others were trying to make is that anyone can read articles by experts and then regurgitate it back, that doesn’t imply true knowledge or wisdom about the subject. The real art is the application of that knowledge, which to be honest with only a year under your belt you simply don’t have enough experience to have mastered that art.
I realize that you were only trying to be helpful, which I don’t hold against you. But, your reaction to other more experienced guys trying to warn you to first get some considerable experience before you start giving advice to others is what I am addressing here.
[quote]GeneralIx wrote:
Most powerlifters have less muscle mass than most bodybuilders, and that most powerlifters are stronger than most bodybuilders.[/quote]
What is this bullshit? Have you actually gone off and measured the lbm of a load of powerlifters and bodybuilders and recorded your results? I hate the way people spout this type of crap.
[idiot]Powerlifters have less muscle but bodybuilders have fake muscle because they “take” whey and other steroids like creatine[/idiot]
[quote]
Sentoguy wrote:
Sorry but you really should have chosen your words even more carefully. Your statement that “big is usually not the same as strong” is a complete misunderstanding, and one that seems to have become rampant in the fitness industry.
If bigger doesn’t equal stronger, then why are there weight classes in powerlifting/olympic lifting? Because the bigger (more muscular) guys are stronger than the smaller (less muscular) guys.
Perhaps you might want to go search the archives for an article titled “The Dave Tate Project”. That should give you an idea of the kind of muscle a lot of powerlifters are sporting under their insulation.
I know you’re just trying to argue your case, but seriously you’re only digging your hole deeper. The point others were trying to make is that anyone can read articles by experts and then regurgitate it back, that doesn’t imply true knowledge or wisdom about the subject. The real art is the application of that knowledge, which to be honest with only a year under your belt you simply don’t have enough experience to have mastered that art.
I realize that you were only trying to be helpful, which I don’t hold against you. But, your reaction to other more experienced guys trying to warn you to first get some considerable experience before you start giving advice to others is what I am addressing here.[/quote]
Just one more thing before I raise my flag, strength is more of a cns issue than muscle. That is why bigger is not always stronger. (This was even more carefully chosen). Raises the white flag. I’ll read a lot more then. Thanks for the reply.
Dude, stop digging! granted bigger is not always stronger,may apply to average joe in the street, but stop applying that theory to power lifters v bodybuilding. its completely off topic and have you ever considered as a generalization that powerlifters often carry more fat that covers their huge muscles.
maybe a bigger powerlifter is stronger than a smaller powerlifter, a bigger body builder is stronger than a smaller bodybuilder. ever watched the worlds strongest man, those guys are huge.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Given the choice I wouldn’t depend on the Smith as my only or probably even main setup for anything. That said, I also believe that it is far from useless in the right hands and NOT given the choice much progress can be made with it’s proper use. Almost no piece of equipment is entirely useless if utilized with brains and balls.[/quote]
I wish more people could understand this. I train alone, and I train pretty damn heavy. I can’t go any heavier because - even with a power rack - I have it in my head that I will get pinned, or drop the weights on me.
I would love to have an angled Smith Machine to help break through this mental block. I want to put four wheels on a side and bench it for reps before I die.
I have a hip sled as well, and have put more size on my legs since getting it than I ever have with squats, and people here scoff at leg presses.
Sentoguy wrote:
Sorry but you really should have chosen your words even more carefully. Your statement that “big is usually not the same as strong” is a complete misunderstanding, and one that seems to have become rampant in the fitness industry.
If bigger doesn’t equal stronger, then why are there weight classes in powerlifting/olympic lifting? Because the bigger (more muscular) guys are stronger than the smaller (less muscular) guys.
Perhaps you might want to go search the archives for an article titled “The Dave Tate Project”. That should give you an idea of the kind of muscle a lot of powerlifters are sporting under their insulation.
I know you’re just trying to argue your case, but seriously you’re only digging your hole deeper. The point others were trying to make is that anyone can read articles by experts and then regurgitate it back, that doesn’t imply true knowledge or wisdom about the subject. The real art is the application of that knowledge, which to be honest with only a year under your belt you simply don’t have enough experience to have mastered that art.
I realize that you were only trying to be helpful, which I don’t hold against you. But, your reaction to other more experienced guys trying to warn you to first get some considerable experience before you start giving advice to others is what I am addressing here.
Just one more thing before I raise my flag, strength is more of a cns issue than muscle. That is why bigger is not always stronger. (This was even more carefully chosen). Raises the white flag. I’ll read a lot more then. Thanks for the reply.[/quote]
What’s wrong with you? What’s with all this pseudointellectual crap? Just because you read articles on training does mean you are now an expert… powerlifters have less muscle than bodybuilders? Wow, how many times have powerlifters leaned out, entered bodybuilding shows and totally dominated? You make no sense.
Not to be a doosh, but how many times has a PLer leaned out and dominated a BB contest? I’ve heard it written ancedotally that it could happen but I’ve never read about it actually happening.
I use a power rack at home. I wish the catch bars were about a half inch to one inch lower so I could get the a better ROM. The barbell hits the catches about a 1/2 inch above my chest. If I really arch my back I can just get the barbell to touch without the barbell hitting the safety bars. Oh well. That’s life.