Smells like....

"And I don’t want to hear about that whole USSR thing. We’re damned if we do, damned if we don’t, so I don’t want to hear that arguement. "

And wghat actually made you believe I or anyone else has any concern about what you want or not to hear? The truth is not nice saometimes, so what?

"I doubt many of those people would be the way they were if they actually had a life where they could actually achieve something, but instead the country is poor due to assholes running the place. Those people wouldn’t want you to hear about the people that came over here hating America, but started to like it because they could actually do something with their life. "

Fucking hell. This type of talking is what got most of the (thinking) world to look at americans as dumb arrogant ignorants. There’s plenty of places were people have much better life quality than the US, and a lot more equality of oportunities. Get a grip on yourself.

Lumpy –

There is so much inanity in this post that I must address that which I can address in a point-by-point fashion.

“The President LIED. Was he the origin of the lie? No, but he repeated a lie. That makes him a liar. He can try to pass it off on bad intelligence, but he said it. This is a speach that is worked on for months in advance, not something he throws together the night before. The CIA advised them to lose that Africa claim, and someone in the White House weasled it back in.”

– OK, so do you even know what Bush said in his speech? Let me provide the direct quote: “The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”

Now, Lumpy and Restless, riddle me this: Precisely which part of that statement isn’t true? The British government did say that it believed Saddam had sought African uranium. Is it possible that the British government was mistaken? Sure. Is it possible that Her Majesty’s government came by that belief based on an erroneous American intelligence report about a transaction between Iraq and Niger? Yes ? but British Prime Minister Tony Blair and members of his Cabinet say that’s not what happened.

Now, Lumpy, lets look at your other list o’ lies.

-Donald Rumsefeld claimed on Meet the Press that HE KNEW exactly where to find the WMDs a few days before the invasion.

–I actually don’t know the exact claim to which you’re referring, and I would have to see it in order to comment, but I didn’t want you to think I was avoiding anything you posted. If you care, provide a link to what you’re talking about and I’ll be happy to figure out if your claim has any merit.

-Condoleeza Rice claimed that Iraq’s aluminum tubes were specifically intended for creating WMDs, which is false. They can’t be used for creating WMDs.

–This one I do know about. You have the claim wrong. The claim was that the aluminum tubes could very well be used as a distribution system for WMD (some sort of cannon as I recall). And they could have been, but our intelligence seemingly overestimated Iraqi capabilities, just as it did Soviet capabilities back in the Cold War. Ms. Rice, however, was basing her assertion on intelligence, and was not lying.

-The two trailers which supposedly are bio-weapons labs. False.

–Firstly, the claim was that the trailers could have been bio-weapons labs. That’s why they were investigating the claims: to determine whether they had been. This has not been proved false actually. The latest reports I had read had not discounted the fact that those trailers had been used at some point for bioweapon production or transport.

-The staged rescue of Private Lynch was phoney.

–You’re right, it was phony. And it was perpetrated by the army, not the administration. No one has ever claimed the administration had anything at all to do with any of that.

-The toppling of the Saddam statue by “throngs of Iraqis” was staged for US television, and only a few dozen Iraqi misfits were there, not even a couple of hundred.

–Once again, how was the administration involved in this? Sounds more like something for the networks to me. Are there allegations the administration had this staged? I think not.

-That the post-attack costs would be 2 billion per month… they are DOUBLE that.

–Gee, an economic estimate is incorrect and something is more expensive than planned? That NEVER happens in the government… Ever hear of the Big Dig in Boston? Ever heard of the projected medicare and social security expenditures? I guess we’re just being constantly lied to by every facet of the government. It couldn’ t possibly be that, one, estimates are inherently guesses, and two, they had to add things when it came down to actually doing the operations that hadn’t been thought of in planning stages.

-That the Iraqis would welcome us with open arms.

–Many have. We’re encountering resistance that actually should have been predicted. Firstly, we didn’t kill the Republican Guard and Feyadeen (sp?) – instead we let them run away or surrender and then let them go. So we have a bunch of disaffected people out there. Now, add to that the Iranian and Syrian imports that are causing trouble.

Secondly, it’s quite common for occupying troops to face hostile reaction from a segment of society. U.S. troops in post-WWII were attacked in Germany and Japan for years after the end of the war. These small number of attacks (percentage-wise) do not indicate anything about whether the majority of the population was glad to have us overthrow Saddam.

-That Saddam has some of the “most lethal WMDs” known to man, according to Bush. The most lethal WMDs are nukes, and nobody claims that Saddam had nukes now that we are in Iraq. The idea that Iraq might have actually had a nuke is laughable now.

–Now Lumpy, lets look at that construction, shall we. “Some of the most lethal WMDs” – that can also be read as some of the group of the most lethal WMDs, which obviously could include biological and chemical weapons. He didn’t claim Saddam had nukes – only that he was trying to attain them. Which, of course, he was.

Now, Restless, Lumpy, and M.Quebec, let’s recall that we did not pin the entire invasion on Saddam’s possession of nuclear weapons, which in fact was never claimed. Besides the human rights and geopolitical implications, we did make an important part of the equation ridding the world and ourselves of Saddam’s WMDs.

Everyone who is serious about national security ? British intelligence, U.S. intelligence, even Dominique de Villepin ? recognizes that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction (WMD). He used chemical WMDs against his own people; he admitted to having biological WMDs; and he intended to reconstitute his nuclear WMD program. To do that, uranium was required. Where does a rogue dictator shop for uranium? Impoverished African countries are recommended. The British believe that’s why Saddam sent a “trade delegation” to Niger in 1999. That may even explain the forged documents: Apparently, an African official understood that there were Europeans and Americans who would pay good money for documentary evidence that Saddam’s trade delegation had successfully completed its mission.

Suffice it to say that even if the claims weren’t perfect, the intelligence was there, and, together with the other considerations for going in, we were justified in making a preemptive military move to defend our national interests.

“It was one goddamn thing he said in one fucking speech he gave out of a thousand speeches and a thousand things he said. You are the idiot restless. You make no valid points on anything you ever have to say. Where were the questions when Clinton blew up an aspirin factory? Where were the questions when Clinton sent cruise missiles into Iraq? Where were the questions when democrats like Gephardt and Kerry in 98, said that Saddam had been given too much time and all the evidence was there that he had WMD’s? Why dont you admit that this is all political and if Bill Clinton had been president and done the same thing, you would have been all for it.”

With all his defects Cliton was at least a bit more of a diplomat and I suspect he’d actually be a little more concerned with the rest of the world’s opinions. Then again maybe not. I don’t give a fuck about the USA political system, I care about the impact this has on the rest of the world and with the killing of innocents. I won’t admit anything because your supposuitions are all completely wrong. I don’t like Bush because I don’t think any retard should have that much power. I have criticised the USA actions since vietnam and I don’t know and couldn’t care less about which political faction was in power then. There’s nothing political about this.

RESTLESS:

Fucking hell. This type of talking is what got most of the (thinking) world to look at americans as dumb arrogant ignorants. There’s plenty of places were people have much better life quality than the US, and a lot more equality of oportunities. Get a grip on yourself.

OK. Enought with vague assertions. Show us your list of top countries. I am waiting… My guess is that they`re all more socialist and/or communist biased than the US. And before you shell it out, this bias is not an improvement of standards of living at all. It is willingly slowing down the increase of the standards of living of everybody at the price of the few that cannot contribute more. Bad tradeoff, long-term.

“There’s plenty of places were people have much better life quality than the US, and a lot more equality of oportunities. Get a grip on yourself.”

Bullshit.

Unless you’re looking at meaningless statistics.

I think it’s Sweden or one of them countries is “better” because it has better healthcare. What the hell? So having bigger government involvement in healthcare makes it BETTER? I don’t think so.

Go ahead and look at your silly stats thinking that it makes those countries better than the US. It doesn’t work that way. And you want to tell everyone here to get a clue. lol

“Unfortunately it didn’t seem to be enough.”

It’s fucks like you that reinforce America’s beliefs of why what we’re doing is right.

“With all his defects Cliton was at least a bit more of a diplomat and I suspect he’d actually be a little more concerned with the rest of the world’s opinions.”

Bwahahahahaha. What was that incident where thousands of people were massacred and Clinton did nothing? Then when Clinton appologized for not doing anything, he was applauded. Hahaha, you talk a lot about people getting a clue, so take your own advice.

“I don’t like Bush because I don’t think any retard should have that much power. I have criticised the USA actions since vietnam and I don’t know and couldn’t care less about which political faction was in power then. There’s nothing political about this.”

Of course, Bush is the only guy who makes the decisions. LOL

So what’s your stance on WWI and WWII?

"Bullshit.

Unless you’re looking at meaningless statistics. "

LOL. You really are true masters in denial. NAything that doesn’t suits your carefully manipulated and controled line of thinking and endangers the idiotic beliefs your life stands on instantly becomes meaningless. Since they’re meaningless, I won’t tell you where is your ranking in the development index (not sure it’s trhe correct term in English).It’s not first, it’s ok but it certainly doesn’t justify such arrogance and your looking down on other less developed cultures.

"Bwahahahahaha. What was that incident where thousands of people were massacred and Clinton did nothing? Then when Clinton appologized for not doing anything, he was applauded. Hahaha, you talk a lot about people getting a clue, so take your own advice. "

Didn’t I say “then again maybe not”?

"So what’s your stance on WWI and WWII? "

Completely diferent scenario, there’s no comparison between what was happening then and the ridiculous exploitation of your delirious paranoical fear of a terrorist treath ,which you have been bringing upon yourselves for a long time now. You got even for 9/11 by killing the same amount of innocents in Iraq, let’s see what happens now.

"Yes, thank you so much for posting yet again on this beaten-to-death subject. "

No problem, glad I could be of some assistance.

“You know, you used to post quite intelligently on a whole host of training-related topics. Now you’re exclusively over here ranting against Bush, the Iraq deal, everything except training.”

I think you deserve a reply to this. Since this is an american based forum I sacrificed my role in it in order to be able to speak my mind against the pro war voices that got raised as the war aproached. Since there was no tolerance for a different opinion, (may I remind you of Avoid Roids attempt to descredit me at the HST forum by taking my posts over there and calling me a terrorist and the HST board a terrorist supporting board?) as my anger rose and since the dynamics between me and many other forum members got irreperably damaged I chose to take my limited traning and nutrition knowledge elsewhere and keep this place the forum of election to vent all my angers against what I believe to be wrong in this world.

“If you really feel this strongly about things, go find a political board and post on it. It should be obvious to you by now that no one is changing anyone else’s mind about any of this, and all of you people who get so worked up about this sort of thing are wasting your time.”

I have no illusions regarding the results of any of this, it’s just something that I feel I should do and I won’t be silenced.

restless and mon quebec, we didn’t get enough of our medicine on Sept. 11th? You animals have gone off the deep end.

restless,
I’m glad we have the power and you have none. Are you happy that September 11th happened? Yes or no will do nicely.
By the way, I’m glad that everyone on this forum is beginning to see your true colors. As you know, I’ve recognized your evil nature from day one. You have never fooled me. I remember the, “you don’t want to know what I did” comment. I caught it. I can guess what you did. I’ll bet it was something cowardly against an innocent. Probably in a group.
Oh, trust me, our soldiers are well trained in hand to hand combat. We are just as lethal one on one. Some of us are better trained and more lethal than others. We don’t need mechanized ANYTHING to defend ourselves. I wish you ill will.

restless,
One more thing. You said, “I have no illusions regarding the results of any of this, it’s just something that I feel I should do and I won’t be silenced.”
If we were 1/100th as bad as you say we are, you would not be allowed to make your hate filled comments. We would tolerate no dissent from anyone. However, we are America and we practice what we preach. Therefore, even you can speak.

You’ve gotta love the
My country is better than your country inanity.

Frankly, there is no such thing as a “greatest country in the world”.
Certainly there is a “most powerful” country in the world, which at present is the USA. That doesn’t make the USA any better than anyone else, nor does it make it any worse, it just is.

NeilG, here’s a newsflash, not everyone wants to live in the USA [and having done so I’m not completely speaking out my butt]; but then I don’t want to live in Sweden either. I imagine there’s good adn bad things in both countries which eitehr recommend or discommend [heh neologism] each country.

Personally, I think NZ is the greatest place on the planet, doesn’t make it so, and my belief doesn’t delude me into thinking that my country is perfect or infallible.

Can we all please give the “rah rah Country X” a rest.

iscariot,
Rah Rah United States. I couldn’t resist!!!
Do you agree with restless, iscariot? Do you think we got “our medicine” on September 11th?
Even though you called us terrorists, I can’t believe EVEN YOU would agree with his suppositions. I suppose I could be wrong.

mon quebec: You make some good points.

The tragic events that took place on Sept. 11th were most likely a result of this governments foreign policy - especially in the mid-east. It had nothing to do with them hating us because we are so good or the rest of the out and out lies spewed forth by the current crop of criminals in power.

This country’s naked use of military force to achieve any desired ends was bound to come back and haunt us. Imperialism will never make you friends unless you are going to recieve some of the spoils.

While I mostly blame this country’s political elite the population as a whole should shoulder some of the blame. Americans are too wraped up in sports mania and talk shows to truly pay attention to what is going on arond them. Everyday we loose more of our civil liberties under the banner of “protection” and no one seems to notice or care. As long as that is the case the status quo will continue to desimate what is left of our constitution. Truly sad.

After everyone has recieved their daily indoctrination of the major news sources try geting on-line and read through a few foreign papers and then ask yourself why they report the same stories but the content is different. You will begin to see the propaganda at work.

US=GG, give me a fucking break about the ‘terrorist thing’ everyone except you is sick of your tired denunciations.
Anyway, to the question at hand.

Do I think the USA deserved Sept 11? Of course not - no one, from any country deserves that.

Let’s turn the question around and ask that if it happened to a proclaimed enemy of the US would that make it alright in your eyes. [My guess is yes].

Was I surprised about what happened on Sept 11 - Not really, something of that nature was going to happen sooner or later. Find enough fanatics witha convenient target/ ‘great Satan’ , which
the US is for a lot of people and something is bound to happen.

Then again, a lot of US security analysts were expecting an attack at some point too.

What took me by surprise was the scale.

Then again, Bin Laden et al may be fanatics, but they’re not stupid fanatics as bespoke by the logisical co-ordination of the attack.

“If we were 1/100th as bad as you say we are, you would not be allowed to make your hate filled comments. We would tolerate no dissent from anyone. However, we are America and we practice what we preach. Therefore, even you can speak.”

HAHAHA

  1. You don’t tolerate dissent from anyone! When was the last time a hardline dissenter was invited on one of the major US networks & given enough time to explain their position? They can’t because they’ve only got a couple of minutes between commercials to say what they’ve got to say. When you’ve only got a couple minutes between commercials you can only repeat conventional thoughts. If I go on TV & say OBL is a terrorist, Saddam gassed his own people, etc I don’t need to back it up. Everybody just nods. But if say that the USA is a terrorist state & rogue state & that every postwar US president would be hanged if the Nuremburg laws were applied I’d sound crazy if I didn’t have enough time to explain it all. If the major US networks were smarter, ie better propagandists, they would let dissenters on more, but make sure they only get 1-2mins so they can’t expliain more & they really would sound nuts. There’s no bludgeon over the dissenters’ heads, so the best people can do is ignore them. They don’t even get a chance to get their views out there.

  2. You do NOT practice what you preach, for reasons given on other threads RE democracy, totalitarianism, double standards, etc. I’ll be happy to give examples if you don’t feel like looking.

M. Quebec –

What precisely about the concept “toleration” do you not understand? Firstly, as I have pointed out many times previously, the concept of toleration of dissent as a Constitutional right applies only to the freedom to air your views without the fear of governmental prosecution (which, BTW, many people in Europe do not enjoy). Toleration of dissent does not mean that every whacko with a dissenting viewpoint is entitled to network TV time, which is a privately owned resource (well, approximately privately owned anyway – suffice it to say it’s a regulated private resource). Toleration of dissent means you can buy your own TV network and broadcast your views 24-hours a day, 7-days a week without fear of having your station confiscated and your ass thrown in jail for subversion.

It is not the responsibility of the majority to give all the minority viewpoints platforms with which to broadcast their dissents. If a dissenting individual or group has a viewpoint it wishes to air, getting it out is that group or individual’s responsibility. Tolerance simply means no one will be able to use the power of the government (incarceration, confiscation, etc.) in order to stop you from expressing yourself. We practice what we preach. The problem, apparently, is that you do not grasp what exactly it is we are preaching.