[quote]ironmanzvw wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Ironman - do you have a log where you’ll be documenting the “lean gains”?
You’re already a fairly big dude, it could be cool to follow along. [/quote]
No I don’t, but I will start one if enough people are interested in following it man.[/quote]
Would follow.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Obviously small incremental changes will allow you to maintain a better handle on where things are going, but with me, even when I’m raising #s, I still keep a few lower intake days during the week. I like to think that the cyclical approach keeps a bit more metabolic movement, and can possibly have some preventative effect with your metabolic rate actually increasing and making things more difficult.
Also, adding the higher macros to meals that are easier in terms of your schedule (if you carry food around like I do, it’s not always easy to eat certain meals while going about your daily activities), as well as having a positive effect on your training (ie. pre gym) are always good ideas.
S[/quote]
Hey Stu,
So I’m in the reverse dieting stage from my recent prep. I currently train M-F, but take weekends off. Would you recommend a calorie drop on weekends? And if so, by about what % of my weekly numbers?
If you’re healthy and your body has enough reason to grow then you should be able to gain weight by keeping protein at 1.5 grams per pound and eating when you’re hungry
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]ironmanzvw wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Ironman - do you have a log where you’ll be documenting the “lean gains”?
You’re already a fairly big dude, it could be cool to follow along. [/quote]
No I don’t, but I will start one if enough people are interested in following it man.[/quote]
Would follow. [/quote]
Good to know, thanks man.
I’ll offer some of my own experience on the matter if I may. I’ve made many mistakes on the way, so I’ve had plenty to learn from. I have finally zeroed in on certain principles that work for me to continue to make gains, but not have 2 different sets of jeans depending on the time of year…
Lean gains, if done right, are NO faster/slower than “dirty gains” … Except at the end you dont have a bunch of fat to strip off
Basically, once you are done cutting, you scale back the cardio a bit and/or increase the calories a bit. I really do believe its about this simple. Once you find the balance where you start to maintain your weight or even start to soften up A LITTLE BIT, you are right about where you need to be.
Depending on how advanced you are, your weight may not increase that much while you are doing this. Think of someone like Stu who “only” gains 2-5 pounds of muscle per contest (over the course of a year)… You think he is going to be gaining a pound a week? Very, very doubtful. In muscular weight, this is MUCH less than a pound a month… Its really not even measurable to any meaningful degree.
Focus on performance at the gym. If your numbers are consistently ticking their way up, you are likely feeding your body well enough for growth.
Since we don’t have a scale to rely on, Have an “indicator measurement” that lets you know if you are gaining too much fat. For me, its my love handle area. We can trick ourselves into seeing a six pack… But the tape measure doesn’t lie.
“Easy” ways to boost calories intelligently are in your Peri-workout stuff (pre, during, post workout meals/drinks). If you train 4 days a week, adding in 200-300 calories on those days is really all you need to do. This gives your body the food it needs at the right time, and it adds up to thousands of calories over the course of the month.
Do not entirely drop cardio. This is kind of an individual thing, but I’m going to guess that the fact you are asking about this means you are not naturally prone to staying lean. I’m a fatty by nature, and I find that keeping in 2-4 sessions a week really makes a huge difference.
In my experience and those I have talked to, the HARDEST part is consistently staying on your “diet” even though you are bulking. TREAT THIS EXACTLY THE SAME AS A CUT. Its so, so, so easy to eat a few more spoons of peanut butter, to eat second helping of moms cooking, to have just one slice of pizza in the break room at work when you are “gaining” … After all, “heck, the calories might even help since I’m gaining now!” - Nope, once you have figured out your calories/macros that allow you to lean gain, adding more food on top of that does not accelerate your gains, only your waist line
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
I’ll offer some of my own experience on the matter if I may. I’ve made many mistakes on the way, so I’ve had plenty to learn from. I have finally zeroed in on certain principles that work for me to continue to make gains, but not have 2 different sets of jeans depending on the time of year…
Lean gains, if done right, are NO faster/slower than “dirty gains” … Except at the end you dont have a bunch of fat to strip off
Basically, once you are done cutting, you scale back the cardio a bit and/or increase the calories a bit. I really do believe its about this simple. Once you find the balance where you start to maintain your weight or even start to soften up A LITTLE BIT, you are right about where you need to be.
Depending on how advanced you are, your weight may not increase that much while you are doing this. Think of someone like Stu who “only” gains 2-5 pounds of muscle per contest (over the course of a year)… You think he is going to be gaining a pound a week? Very, very doubtful. In muscular weight, this is MUCH less than a pound a month… Its really not even measurable to any meaningful degree.
Focus on performance at the gym. If your numbers are consistently ticking their way up, you are likely feeding your body well enough for growth.
Since we don’t have a scale to rely on, Have an “indicator measurement” that lets you know if you are gaining too much fat. For me, its my love handle area. We can trick ourselves into seeing a six pack… But the tape measure doesn’t lie.
“Easy” ways to boost calories intelligently are in your Peri-workout stuff (pre, during, post workout meals/drinks). If you train 4 days a week, adding in 200-300 calories on those days is really all you need to do. This gives your body the food it needs at the right time, and it adds up to thousands of calories over the course of the month.
Do not entirely drop cardio. This is kind of an individual thing, but I’m going to guess that the fact you are asking about this means you are not naturally prone to staying lean. I’m a fatty by nature, and I find that keeping in 2-4 sessions a week really makes a huge difference.
In my experience and those I have talked to, the HARDEST part is consistently staying on your “diet” even though you are bulking. TREAT THIS EXACTLY THE SAME AS A CUT. Its so, so, so easy to eat a few more spoons of peanut butter, to eat second helping of moms cooking, to have just one slice of pizza in the break room at work when you are “gaining” … After all, “heck, the calories might even help since I’m gaining now!” - Nope, once you have figured out your calories/macros that allow you to lean gain, adding more food on top of that does not accelerate your gains, only your waist line [/quote]
Great post, especially that bottom paragraph.
Thank you for taking the time to share all this info.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
I’ll offer some of my own experience on the matter if I may. I’ve made many mistakes on the way, so I’ve had plenty to learn from. I have finally zeroed in on certain principles that work for me to continue to make gains, but not have 2 different sets of jeans depending on the time of year…
Lean gains, if done right, are NO faster/slower than “dirty gains” … Except at the end you dont have a bunch of fat to strip off
Basically, once you are done cutting, you scale back the cardio a bit and/or increase the calories a bit. I really do believe its about this simple. Once you find the balance where you start to maintain your weight or even start to soften up A LITTLE BIT, you are right about where you need to be.
Depending on how advanced you are, your weight may not increase that much while you are doing this. Think of someone like Stu who “only” gains 2-5 pounds of muscle per contest (over the course of a year)… You think he is going to be gaining a pound a week? Very, very doubtful. In muscular weight, this is MUCH less than a pound a month… Its really not even measurable to any meaningful degree.
Focus on performance at the gym. If your numbers are consistently ticking their way up, you are likely feeding your body well enough for growth.
Since we don’t have a scale to rely on, Have an “indicator measurement” that lets you know if you are gaining too much fat. For me, its my love handle area. We can trick ourselves into seeing a six pack… But the tape measure doesn’t lie.
“Easy” ways to boost calories intelligently are in your Peri-workout stuff (pre, during, post workout meals/drinks). If you train 4 days a week, adding in 200-300 calories on those days is really all you need to do. This gives your body the food it needs at the right time, and it adds up to thousands of calories over the course of the month.
Do not entirely drop cardio. This is kind of an individual thing, but I’m going to guess that the fact you are asking about this means you are not naturally prone to staying lean. I’m a fatty by nature, and I find that keeping in 2-4 sessions a week really makes a huge difference.
In my experience and those I have talked to, the HARDEST part is consistently staying on your “diet” even though you are bulking. TREAT THIS EXACTLY THE SAME AS A CUT. Its so, so, so easy to eat a few more spoons of peanut butter, to eat second helping of moms cooking, to have just one slice of pizza in the break room at work when you are “gaining” … After all, “heck, the calories might even help since I’m gaining now!” - Nope, once you have figured out your calories/macros that allow you to lean gain, adding more food on top of that does not accelerate your gains, only your waist line [/quote]
Good post. I’ve been slowly coming to a lot of the same conclusions.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
I’ll offer some of my own experience on the matter if I may. I’ve made many mistakes on the way, so I’ve had plenty to learn from. I have finally zeroed in on certain principles that work for me to continue to make gains, but not have 2 different sets of jeans depending on the time of year…
Lean gains, if done right, are NO faster/slower than “dirty gains” … Except at the end you dont have a bunch of fat to strip off
Basically, once you are done cutting, you scale back the cardio a bit and/or increase the calories a bit. I really do believe its about this simple. Once you find the balance where you start to maintain your weight or even start to soften up A LITTLE BIT, you are right about where you need to be.
Depending on how advanced you are, your weight may not increase that much while you are doing this. Think of someone like Stu who “only” gains 2-5 pounds of muscle per contest (over the course of a year)… You think he is going to be gaining a pound a week? Very, very doubtful. In muscular weight, this is MUCH less than a pound a month… Its really not even measurable to any meaningful degree.
Focus on performance at the gym. If your numbers are consistently ticking their way up, you are likely feeding your body well enough for growth.
Since we don’t have a scale to rely on, Have an “indicator measurement” that lets you know if you are gaining too much fat. For me, its my love handle area. We can trick ourselves into seeing a six pack… But the tape measure doesn’t lie.
“Easy” ways to boost calories intelligently are in your Peri-workout stuff (pre, during, post workout meals/drinks). If you train 4 days a week, adding in 200-300 calories on those days is really all you need to do. This gives your body the food it needs at the right time, and it adds up to thousands of calories over the course of the month.
Do not entirely drop cardio. This is kind of an individual thing, but I’m going to guess that the fact you are asking about this means you are not naturally prone to staying lean. I’m a fatty by nature, and I find that keeping in 2-4 sessions a week really makes a huge difference.
In my experience and those I have talked to, the HARDEST part is consistently staying on your “diet” even though you are bulking. TREAT THIS EXACTLY THE SAME AS A CUT. Its so, so, so easy to eat a few more spoons of peanut butter, to eat second helping of moms cooking, to have just one slice of pizza in the break room at work when you are “gaining” … After all, “heck, the calories might even help since I’m gaining now!” - Nope, once you have figured out your calories/macros that allow you to lean gain, adding more food on top of that does not accelerate your gains, only your waist line [/quote]
This is great.
In terms of gaining consistently and slowly, do you believe there is any rationale in cycling the gaining during a “lean bulk” period? In other words, if you have deload weeks (5/3/1 for instance), could you “lean bulk” for three weeks, then “cut” during the deload week? This would just mean scaling back calories, increasing cardio, and altering macros slight. It would be like taking a few steps forward, one back, then repeating.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
I’ll offer some of my own experience on the matter if I may. I’ve made many mistakes on the way, so I’ve had plenty to learn from. I have finally zeroed in on certain principles that work for me to continue to make gains, but not have 2 different sets of jeans depending on the time of year…
Lean gains, if done right, are NO faster/slower than “dirty gains” … Except at the end you dont have a bunch of fat to strip off
Basically, once you are done cutting, you scale back the cardio a bit and/or increase the calories a bit. I really do believe its about this simple. Once you find the balance where you start to maintain your weight or even start to soften up A LITTLE BIT, you are right about where you need to be.
Depending on how advanced you are, your weight may not increase that much while you are doing this. Think of someone like Stu who “only” gains 2-5 pounds of muscle per contest (over the course of a year)… You think he is going to be gaining a pound a week? Very, very doubtful. In muscular weight, this is MUCH less than a pound a month… Its really not even measurable to any meaningful degree.
Focus on performance at the gym. If your numbers are consistently ticking their way up, you are likely feeding your body well enough for growth.
Since we don’t have a scale to rely on, Have an “indicator measurement” that lets you know if you are gaining too much fat. For me, its my love handle area. We can trick ourselves into seeing a six pack… But the tape measure doesn’t lie.
“Easy” ways to boost calories intelligently are in your Peri-workout stuff (pre, during, post workout meals/drinks). If you train 4 days a week, adding in 200-300 calories on those days is really all you need to do. This gives your body the food it needs at the right time, and it adds up to thousands of calories over the course of the month.
Do not entirely drop cardio. This is kind of an individual thing, but I’m going to guess that the fact you are asking about this means you are not naturally prone to staying lean. I’m a fatty by nature, and I find that keeping in 2-4 sessions a week really makes a huge difference.
In my experience and those I have talked to, the HARDEST part is consistently staying on your “diet” even though you are bulking. TREAT THIS EXACTLY THE SAME AS A CUT. Its so, so, so easy to eat a few more spoons of peanut butter, to eat second helping of moms cooking, to have just one slice of pizza in the break room at work when you are “gaining” … After all, “heck, the calories might even help since I’m gaining now!” - Nope, once you have figured out your calories/macros that allow you to lean gain, adding more food on top of that does not accelerate your gains, only your waist line [/quote]
This should be a sticky…
Excellent information man, sincerely appreciate you taking the time to share it.
I like the idea of treating a “bulk” like a cut, instead of just going balls to the walls eat eat eat lol.
[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
I’ll offer some of my own experience on the matter if I may. I’ve made many mistakes on the way, so I’ve had plenty to learn from. I have finally zeroed in on certain principles that work for me to continue to make gains, but not have 2 different sets of jeans depending on the time of year…
Lean gains, if done right, are NO faster/slower than “dirty gains” … Except at the end you dont have a bunch of fat to strip off
Basically, once you are done cutting, you scale back the cardio a bit and/or increase the calories a bit. I really do believe its about this simple. Once you find the balance where you start to maintain your weight or even start to soften up A LITTLE BIT, you are right about where you need to be.
Depending on how advanced you are, your weight may not increase that much while you are doing this. Think of someone like Stu who “only” gains 2-5 pounds of muscle per contest (over the course of a year)… You think he is going to be gaining a pound a week? Very, very doubtful. In muscular weight, this is MUCH less than a pound a month… Its really not even measurable to any meaningful degree.
Focus on performance at the gym. If your numbers are consistently ticking their way up, you are likely feeding your body well enough for growth.
Since we don’t have a scale to rely on, Have an “indicator measurement” that lets you know if you are gaining too much fat. For me, its my love handle area. We can trick ourselves into seeing a six pack… But the tape measure doesn’t lie.
“Easy” ways to boost calories intelligently are in your Peri-workout stuff (pre, during, post workout meals/drinks). If you train 4 days a week, adding in 200-300 calories on those days is really all you need to do. This gives your body the food it needs at the right time, and it adds up to thousands of calories over the course of the month.
Do not entirely drop cardio. This is kind of an individual thing, but I’m going to guess that the fact you are asking about this means you are not naturally prone to staying lean. I’m a fatty by nature, and I find that keeping in 2-4 sessions a week really makes a huge difference.
In my experience and those I have talked to, the HARDEST part is consistently staying on your “diet” even though you are bulking. TREAT THIS EXACTLY THE SAME AS A CUT. Its so, so, so easy to eat a few more spoons of peanut butter, to eat second helping of moms cooking, to have just one slice of pizza in the break room at work when you are “gaining” … After all, “heck, the calories might even help since I’m gaining now!” - Nope, once you have figured out your calories/macros that allow you to lean gain, adding more food on top of that does not accelerate your gains, only your waist line [/quote]
Great post, especially that bottom paragraph.
Thank you for taking the time to share all this info.[/quote]
Hey Smashing, I’m gonna need you to change your avi. It’s making me feel like a fat little piece of shit. Thanks.
I’m so happy this post is here! I’ve recently dropped 18lbs and looking to drop maybe another 5 or 10 and then “lean bulk” also. My initial plan was to switch my training a little bit (probably 5/3/1 followed up hypertrophy type stuff) and start by taking Anaconda on training days. Every 2 weeks, I’ll reevaluate and add/subtract food as needed. I’m pretty excited about this post and following others who want to take this approach.
Maybe we should start our own Group? “Lean Gains FTW!”
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
I’m so happy this post is here! I’ve recently dropped 18lbs and looking to drop maybe another 5 or 10 and then “lean bulk” also. My initial plan was to switch my training a little bit (probably 5/3/1 followed up hypertrophy type stuff) and start by taking Anaconda on training days. Every 2 weeks, I’ll reevaluate and add/subtract food as needed. I’m pretty excited about this post and following others who want to take this approach.
Maybe we should start our own Group? “Lean Gains FTW!” [/quote]
Thats not a bad idea man…
It would be a wealth of knowledge and we would al be going through similar things. I’m down
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
I’ll offer some of my own experience on the matter if I may. I’ve made many mistakes on the way, so I’ve had plenty to learn from. I have finally zeroed in on certain principles that work for me to continue to make gains, but not have 2 different sets of jeans depending on the time of year…
Lean gains, if done right, are NO faster/slower than “dirty gains” … Except at the end you dont have a bunch of fat to strip off
Basically, once you are done cutting, you scale back the cardio a bit and/or increase the calories a bit. I really do believe its about this simple. Once you find the balance where you start to maintain your weight or even start to soften up A LITTLE BIT, you are right about where you need to be.
Depending on how advanced you are, your weight may not increase that much while you are doing this. Think of someone like Stu who “only” gains 2-5 pounds of muscle per contest (over the course of a year)… You think he is going to be gaining a pound a week? Very, very doubtful. In muscular weight, this is MUCH less than a pound a month… Its really not even measurable to any meaningful degree.
Focus on performance at the gym. If your numbers are consistently ticking their way up, you are likely feeding your body well enough for growth.
Since we don’t have a scale to rely on, Have an “indicator measurement” that lets you know if you are gaining too much fat. For me, its my love handle area. We can trick ourselves into seeing a six pack… But the tape measure doesn’t lie.
“Easy” ways to boost calories intelligently are in your Peri-workout stuff (pre, during, post workout meals/drinks). If you train 4 days a week, adding in 200-300 calories on those days is really all you need to do. This gives your body the food it needs at the right time, and it adds up to thousands of calories over the course of the month.
Do not entirely drop cardio. This is kind of an individual thing, but I’m going to guess that the fact you are asking about this means you are not naturally prone to staying lean. I’m a fatty by nature, and I find that keeping in 2-4 sessions a week really makes a huge difference.
In my experience and those I have talked to, the HARDEST part is consistently staying on your “diet” even though you are bulking. TREAT THIS EXACTLY THE SAME AS A CUT. Its so, so, so easy to eat a few more spoons of peanut butter, to eat second helping of moms cooking, to have just one slice of pizza in the break room at work when you are “gaining” … After all, “heck, the calories might even help since I’m gaining now!” - Nope, once you have figured out your calories/macros that allow you to lean gain, adding more food on top of that does not accelerate your gains, only your waist line [/quote]
Thanks, Lonnie. This is some fantastic advice that I’ll heed once I’m done with my current summer cut.
Think I read something (or perhaps it was a video) by Layne Norton explaining that is essentially how he bulks. A sort of 4-6 week “bulk” followed by a 2 week “cut.” I’ll look for it.
[quote]MAK40 wrote:
Think I read something (or perhaps it was a video) by Layne Norton explaining that is essentially how he bulks. A sort of 4-6 week “bulk” followed by a 2 week “cut.” I’ll look for it. [/quote]
He doesn’t do that anymore. Just fyi
[quote]baugust wrote:
In terms of gaining consistently and slowly, do you believe there is any rationale in cycling the gaining during a “lean bulk” period? In other words, if you have deload weeks (5/3/1 for instance), could you “lean bulk” for three weeks, then “cut” during the deload week? This would just mean scaling back calories, increasing cardio, and altering macros slight. It would be like taking a few steps forward, one back, then repeating. [/quote]
This is one of those things that falls under “try it and find out.” Although I am inclined to say no for the following reasons:
With the principles I outlined above, you shouldn’t ever be getting fat, thus you should really never need to be shedding fat unless that is the main goal for a specific length of time.
Given that deload weeks are usually incorporated into strength programs, and The purpose of the deload week is to recover from the 3 heavy weeks of training just prior, AND you are still training, (but with just lower intensities and volume) there is still going to be some calorie burn. So I dont think lowering calories is the way to go IF maximum strength gains are the goal. Plus the difference would be so minimal it would be something stupid like 50 calories a day or something.
Having said that, You could just skip your post workout meal, or nix whatever carbs are in your workout shakes. That would make it a simple way to adjust. Although, like I said, if MAX strength gains are what you are after I would probably just keep everything the same, with the possible addition of some added walking for some extra calorie burn and recovery.
Again though, you should try it and see. It may work great for you and you find that its the way you like to do it, or you may find yourself spinning your wheels and hating it. Tough to say. If you aren’t satisfied with your current results, you HAVE to try something different, right?
Lonnie- great points! Definitely something that trainers should be doing that requires a bit of monitoring how they’re progressing. Too many people end a cut, and over night the higher levels of cardio stops, the lowered carb intake stops, the calories jump right up to what USED TO BE their maintenance #s,… and all hell breaks loose.
I’ve heard of some folks who say that coming out of a cut should take at least as long as you were cutting. Now I don’t know if that’s always applicable, but it’s definitely food for thought in terms of switching gears so quickly. IMO that’s why so many people buy into the whole ‘post contest rebound’ BS. “Omigawd, I put on 10 lbs of muscle the week after my show, guess I was ready to Grow!” -lmao
S
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I’ve heard of some folks who say that coming out of a cut should take at least as long as you were cutting.[/quote]
I was taught 1/2 the time spent in deficit to gradually transition from a deficit to maintenance or surplus.
[quote]ironmanzvw wrote:
[quote]ZJStrope wrote:
I’m so happy this post is here! I’ve recently dropped 18lbs and looking to drop maybe another 5 or 10 and then “lean bulk” also. My initial plan was to switch my training a little bit (probably 5/3/1 followed up hypertrophy type stuff) and start by taking Anaconda on training days. Every 2 weeks, I’ll reevaluate and add/subtract food as needed. I’m pretty excited about this post and following others who want to take this approach.
Maybe we should start our own Group? “Lean Gains FTW!” [/quote]
Thats not a bad idea man…
It would be a wealth of knowledge and we would al be going through similar things. I’m down[/quote]
I’m trying to figure out now how to start a Group in the forums, unless someone else here knows how?
Any name suggestions?
Ok so the big word from CS is that there’s no way to just start a group and there are no plans to start one; as such, I’ll start a thread sometime within the week and try to put some rules and such about it’s use and the posting that goes on there.
Also, post some group name thoughts if you have interest.