Smaller Stronger Leaner

Training
41

ActivitiesGuy: That was a very insightful post, and many of the same thoughts about long-term goals have been going through my head.

Your first scenario presents an outcome that I would be very pleased with, being around 205 with slightly higher overall strength than I have now, and more-or-less encapsulates my current planned trajectory. I fully intend on switching gears and chasing strength at some point, I’m just not sure if that will be when I am around 240 or 210 or some other weight.

The main problem I need to solve ASAP is getting my toolbox squared away and learning how to lift properly. That is where the coaching comes in, be it from the strongest man in Maine or someone else. There is so much I can learn and I want to make sure I get the most I can out of the time I put into the gym.

I also think it behooves me to do this while I am still a novice, so I can discard my bad habits relatively soon and lay a foundation for a lifetime of healthy and productive lifting, wherever my journey takes me.

42

I agree with this. if training with Shelby or someone like him is not on the cards, simply training with a powerlifter will do little more than improve his technique, which while very useful wont cover the diet and lifestyle modification aspects of the journey.

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
OP, a little more food for thought here, if you’ll indulge me:

I think it’s terrific that you’ve used powerlifting as a means to turn yourself from “obese sedentary guy” to something healthier. I also think it’s important to decide exactly what you’re trying to turn yourself into, because that may dictate how you think about the lifts and your training from here onward.

If your ultimate goal is to achieve a leaner and healthier physique, then you might want to think of the lifts more like tools to achieve that end goal. Rather than moving as much weight as possible, you will continue to squat, bench, and deadlift with the primary goal of maintaining as much muscle mass as possible. Your lifts may stagnate or even decrease at some point along the way, but that won’t concern you because your principal concern is leaning out. If that gets you to 205 pounds and with a 405/315/495 squat/bench/deadlift, you wouldn’t make much of a splash in powerlifting circles, but you’ll be far ahead of much of the population and healthier to boot.

If you decide that powerlifting is the main pursuit of interest, you may decide to stabilize your bodyweight a little higher and concentrate on getting as strong as possible in that weight class. Perhaps you get to 240 pounds or so, realize that it’s no longer viable to keep increasing your lifts while losing weight, and then decide to junk the weight-loss goal in pursuit of your best possible total in the 242 class. You could be much stronger than you’d be in the previous paragraph; whether you’d be healthier or not is difficult to say.

A powerlifter with a 2500 total is going to be a beast no matter what, but if his goal has always been “move the most weight possible in the three lifts” he might not be the best coach to advise you on this particular journey (although he may well have some useful tips on technique and training that anyone could benefit from). That’s why I think you ought to have an idea what the end goal is. I’m sure that he can help you with technique on the lifts no matter what, but he may not be the ideal long-term coach for you. Make sense?

I say all this as a former college football offensive lineman that dropped about 50 pounds, saw all of my lifts drop significantly, but ultimately came out feeling much leaner, healthier, and happier with my physique. I can bench press about 75% of my all-time PR, but exactly what I can lift has taken a backseat to “Is today’s workout working the muscles the way that I want to?”

Powerlifting is fantastic. You absolutely can and should keep doing the powerlifts even if your goal is “get healthier” rather than “become an Elite powerlifter” - but you may have to think about things a bit differently as you move along on this journey. [/quote]

43

[quote]jeremielemauvais wrote:
I agree with this. if training with Shelby or someone like him is not on the cards, simply training with a powerlifter will do little more than improve his technique, which while very useful wont cover the diet and lifestyle modification aspects of the journey.
[/quote]

I didn’t really get into much detail with the diet part, as I consider it a separate discussion from my present and potential strength. I do have a food scale that I use, as well as logging my diet into myfitnesspal. When I execute my “cut” meal plan correctly I am eating at 2400-2500 calories with 200+ grams of protein and letting fat and carbs fall into place around that. Is there room to improve there? Absolutely. Is it a veritable 180 from my diet as recently as 6 months ago? Definitely.

Some days I may eat more, especially after a good workout. Other days I just fail to execute and decide that some beer and pizza is what I really need.

Consistency of diet is improving. Perhaps more importantly, my alcohol consumption continues to go down which, in turn, leads to better decisions in the kitchen. I feel like I know most of what I need to do, although I could surely benefit from someone like Shelby a great deal.

It is a journey, and the various pieces are falling into place over time. My love of lifting, and the consistency and progress that enthusiasm produces for me in the gym (and the mirror) has been the catalyst for all of these positive changes. That’s the major reason why I am here asking for feedback on the subject of strength. It is what has me hooked on this whole process of improving myself.

That said, the kitchen is definitely where the war will be won and my single largest opportunity for improvement. Fixing my diet is more a matter of de-programming a lifetime of terrible eating habits than knowing what to do, if that makes any sense. Plus I love food, which is part of what got me here in the first place.

I am just trying to be as honest with myself as possible, both about the good and bad things I do. As long as I continue on the trajectory I am aiming for I don’t let myself get too beat up about mis-steps along the way, but I also strive to continuously improve.

44

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
That said, the kitchen is definitely where the war will be won and my single largest opportunity for improvement. Fixing my diet is more a matter of de-programming a lifetime of terrible eating habits than knowing what to do, if that makes any sense. Plus I love food, which is part of what got me here in the first place.
[/quote]

You have a fantastic attitude. Kudos to you.

I just wanted to comment specifically on this piece of your post because I, too, love food, and for several years as a college football player, I ate mass quantities of pizza/pasta/whatever under the guise of “needing to be big for football.”

I still love food, but that has taken on a totally different shape now; I don’t just love to eat, but I love to COOK, and that has helped me figure out what meals still feel rich/indulgent but fit my goals easily. It’s funny: people will see what I eat and think “Aren’t you on a diet?” just because they’re conditioned to me being a bit of a health nut and the food-pyramid, conventional-wisdom approach tells them that what I eat (I’m mostly Paleo) is not what they think of as “diet” food. I eat eggs, bacon, beef, bison, lamb, chicken, duck, turkey, kale, spinach, collards, sweet potatoes, a whole slew of different kinds of fruits and vegetables…it’s really not much of a sacrifice.

Point being: you can learn to make the “love of food” work in your favor if you really embrace cooking your own food, and you can find some pretty rich and indulgent things that still fit into your calorie intake.

Cutting your alcohol intake is a great start. Keeping trigger/junk foods away is another great step. There are some things that I noticed I would eat if I had them around, but I really don’t miss them when they’re not around, so I just don’t even buy them. Eventually I stopped thinking about them altogether.

With any treat or indulgence, I basically ask myself “Is it REALLY worth it?” The craft dessert at a high-end restaurant when I’m out with my girlfriend? Worth it. The store-bought day-old cake someone brought into the office for a birthday? Not worth it. A good glass of wine with dinner? Worth it. A beer just because I’m bored? Not worth it.

45

The more I think about it, the more I think you should shell out for a 12 week diet package with Shelby. You will lose a lot of fat, still gain strength, and set yourself up to be successful and healthy long term. It’s well worth the money, I can personally attest to that.

46

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I think you should shell out for a 12 week diet package with Shelby. You will lose a lot of fat, still gain strength, and set yourself up to be successful and healthy long term. It’s well worth the money, I can personally attest to that.[/quote]

I’m definitely giving it some consideration. I just need to make a little bit more progress on improving my own behavior patterns before I pay someone to tell me what to eat. Unless, of course, Shelby is ready to follow me around slapping beers out of my hand and licking my pizza slice before I can stuff it down my chow hole.

I’m guessing that costs extra.

Out of curiosity, were you already a disciplined dieter when you hired him, or were you in the middle of a turn-around, like me?

47

Don’t fret it. After paying 699 to have someone teach you about dieting (and lot’s of other stuff, Shelby isn’t stingy with his replies), you won’t be drinking beer every day. Besides, I was regularly having pizza, burgers, and ice cream cheat meals (scheduled) when I was using his consulting services. Go for it, man. You have some real potential here, don’t waste it.

48

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

Prepare for a long road especially if you are trying to get lean and strong at the same time. A lot of people fail when trying to serve more than 1 master. Good intentions or not. [/quote]

I wish more people would take this advice. OP you have a lot of good info in this thread, and a good attitude. Always have a plan. Whether its track every macro and eat 500 under, or eat as much good food and get as strong as possible, you need a plan to keep you focused.

49

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Don’t fret it. After paying 699 to have someone teach you about dieting (and lot’s of other stuff, Shelby isn’t stingy with his replies), you won’t be drinking beer every day. Besides, I was regularly having pizza, burgers, and ice cream cheat meals (scheduled) when I was using his consulting services. Go for it, man. You have some real potential here, don’t waste it.[/quote]

The same thought entered my head, that having such a large financial investment in my diet would lead to more discipline on my part.

I may do a little comparison shopping, but your idea has me intrigued.

I can’t wait to get out of work and lift today. Wednesday is deadlift day and deadlift day is my favorite day. I even dress up for it, putting on my best wolf t-shirt along with my goofy vibram toe shoes for the occasion.

Thanks again for all of the great replies. I cannot overstate how much I appreciate this fountain of knowledge and experience, not to mention all of the support.

50

Pulled 515 today, a new PR. I felt great after my work sets and tried a heavy pull. Going to try 545 in a month or so with a proper lead-up to a 1RM attempt.

This really feels awesome. It just beats the hell out of being a lazy bum on so many levels. It also brings me to my next series of questions that I started thinking about after a comment someone made to me today about “belting up”.

I’ve never used a belt, wraps, straps or any real footwear, as I sacrifice my dignity for a few hours per week to workout in vibram toe shoes. I don’t mind using straps if I need to at some point, but I would welcome anyone’s input on protective gear and safety mindset as I test my strength limits.

Is it time to belt up for max effort lifts?

After a rough first couple of months squatting, I’ve improved my technique and my knees are now pain-free for several months, even after work sets of 295-315x5. Should I start wrapping my knees on heavy work sets and/or max effort lifts?

Shoes… I admit, I love my vibrams. It feels great lifting in them, and I have no depth problems on my squats. My feet feel stronger as well. I like the concept of barefoot training on an intuitive level and it seems to be working well for me. Is there any reason for me to consider other footwear as I add weight to the bar?

I’ve never failed a deadlift or squat attempt, although I’ve never remotely tested my 1RM on squat, which I’d like to do next week. My best lift is 315x5. Does this mean I’m basically invincible, or should I be thinking about certain things here as well? Things like what to do if I get pinned under the bar with no spotter in the squat rack or if pulling 545 in a month may present greater risks if done without wearing a belt.

I have no problems with my current “raw” style of lifting, but I am all ears if I should be thinking about managing risk as I test my limits. One thing I read on Jim Wendler’s forum sticks in my mind.

“Shit happens when you push the envelope on strength.”

I accept that, and have already lost two months of zero pressing and rowing progress when I strained my left deltoid. I’m now fully recovered, but I consider that a lesson learned. Trying an extremely wide grip on bench press for the first time with 225 on the bar was not well thought-out at all.

I would like to avoid that sort of situation in the future, and would especially like to be lifting productively for a very long time. Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks again for all of the great feedback, and for taking the time to consider my situation.

51

twojarslave

Nice job on the PR!

You’re going to get a lot of varied responses on belt use. I fought using a belt for year and have only recently started using one. Like anything else you will have to get use to and practice with it. I’ve found it has helped my squat more so than my deadlift, but that’s an individual thing. Ultimately it’s just another tool to help make you stronger. A suggestion I’ve read on here and tend to follow is to only use a belt on your “heavy sets”. Personally, I throw it on at about 70% of my TM. That might be too early or too late for you. I do it to get use to the belt before I hit 85%+.

My biggest suggestion is to do your best to make sure a belt helps you reach your strength goals while not being a posterior chain crutch.

Shoes: I wear Vibrams in the summer and Oly shoes in the winter for deads and squats. Again, response are going to very a lot. Gasp, I even wear tennis shoes some days… I think footwear is made out to be a bigger deal than it really is.

52

twojar,

First, a hearty congrats on your deadlift PR! Well done indeed.

Second, your attitude is really fantastic and refreshing. A lot of people could lean from it.

Third, re: footwear, if you feel good about squatting and DLing in the Vibrams, I say go with it. I, too, like the idea of barefoot training (I do all my kettlebell work barefoot at home). I will say that I’ve enjoyed the use of good Olympic-lifting shoes for heavy squats but I, like usmc, think that footwear is a relatively minor detail so long as you’re not risking injury with a truly “stupid” choice.

Fourth, re: gear in general, I think it again depends on exactly what your goals are. I do everything belt less and wrap less but I am not planning to compete in PL any time soon, so being strictly a “gym lifter” the extra weight is not a point of emphasis for me. However, as we come to the end of your post, Wendler is indeed right that shit happens when you push the envelope for strength.

For ME personally, I have become quite conservative in the gym because I, like you, want this to be a lifelong endeavor. I won’t attempt a max unless I really feel good and I’ll even re-rack a weight a rep or two short if something feels “off” or one is an absolute grinder. The longer that you lift, the better you will be at “feeling out” your body on a given day and deciding when to “go for it” and hen to leave a rep or two in the tank. I’ll also note that being fairly early in this journey and still having some weight to lose, you might benefit from erring on the conservative side every now & then until you’ve lost a bit more of that weight.

All of this is just one man’s opinion, though. Take it for the Interwebz that it’s printed on. Good luck!

53

Can’t give you much advice but congrats on the weight loss man. you’ve got a good attitude, you’ll do well.

54

Thanks again for the input, ActivitiesGuy and usmccds423.

My gut says I should start using a belt for max effort lifts. My body says I don’t need it. I could see myself using it the way I do a mixed grip on deadlifts. I do double-overhand as long as I can to build grip strength, but I switch to mixed grip at 405. I should try a 405 pull with a double overhand, I think I could hold it for one. So I think I will buy a belt, learn how to use it and see how I like it.

I’ll listen to my knees on wraps. I am going to try squatting 365 next week, which I’m sure I’ll get. If that feels good it will be 385 the week after, and I’m pretty confident about 405 within a month. I suppose my knees will probably let me know if they don’t like it.

Vibrams forever, unless someone else puts out an even goofier minimalist shoe.

As for my attitude, all I can say is that lifting has saved my life. I was having chest pains at age 33, flirting with diabetes and heart disease, both of which run in my family. I smoked cigarettes for 15 years at a pack and a half per day clip (although I quit that several years before I started lifting). I drank every day for many years. I did plenty of drugs in my teens and twenties. I lived to work for much of my adult life, neglecting my body in the process of building a career. I was obviously very obese, very physically incapable and very unhappy with the way I looked and felt.

I can’t really explain or rationalize my choices in life, nor do I care to spend much time or effort trying to make sense of why I did what I did. What I can do is focus on the present with an eye to the future. Every day I wake up stronger, healthier, more aware of myself and, perhaps most importantly, happier than the day before. It is an incredible feeling, and I can only liken the ongoing sensation of turning your life around to coming out of anesthesia. Everything was foggy before, but I am awake now. The lessons I am learning from the barbell are creeping into all aspects of my life and I love it.

My blood work and physical was done just over a month ago. No red flags on the numbers, blood pressure is normal (and still declining) and my doctor has given her full blessing to my new hobby of heavy lifting. I have no mobility issues or lingering physical problems from my unhealthy lifestyle. I have nothing holding me back besides the limitations I was born with, which I have not even come close to reaching.

I feel like I dodged a bullet, and anything less than taking full advantage of that gift is unacceptable to me now. I also feel great, and that is something I could not say without being a liar for over ten years.

55

You are 34, but feel free to log workouts and get feedback in the O’35 section. Lots of good, experienced lifters in there and lots of powerlifters.

56

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
You are 34, but feel free to log workouts and get feedback in the O’35 section. Lots of good, experienced lifters in there and lots of powerlifters. [/quote]

Great idea, and I will start today. It would probably be a good idea to let experienced lifters poke some holes in my routine, not to mention getting back to writing my numbers down. I got lax with that when I strained my left deltoid. I have been tallying mentally since then.

Thanks again for all of the great feedback. This site is an outstanding resource.

Edit: Log is up in O35.

57

Congrats on all the progress the weight loss, as well as the deadlift pr. I know several people in the same people position you were, I’ve shown them this thread in hope that it would motivate them.

Also if i was you I would keep doing what i was doing until I plateaued then hire someone.