Smaller Stronger Leaner

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

Hello T-Nation.

First time poster, long time lurker. Everyone who contributes to this fantastic site has my sincere thanks. Everyone who manages to read my entire post has an equally sincere thanks.

I am fat. I used to be REALLY fat. I want to be lean and muscular, like most fat men do. Unlike the majority of fat men, I am doing something about it. I am 14 months in and making solid progress towards my goals. I know what I am doing and I am not here looking for weight loss advice (not yet, anyway).

What I am looking for here is a reality check on my current strength and potential strength, ideally from someone who has gone from similar proportions of 6 ft and 320 pounds down to the 10% - 15% body fat neighborhood while lifting heavy throughout the weight loss process. I am sitting at 280 pounds right now, so I figure I am roughly halfway to my goal. I am 34 years old.

My gym rocks in every way except one. I am the strongest overall person there, at least during the times I work out. Given that I have only been lifting for 14 months and only doing heavy barbell work for 8 months, that is much more indicative of the lack of strong guys at my gym than it is my strength. So I do not get much help from the great guys who workout with me, just lots of good jokes.

Right now my 1RM is 495 (plus clips!) on a conventional deadlift, 1RM of 275 on flat bench, 315x5 on squat, 175x5 on seated OHP, 225x5 on bent over barbell row. All lifts performed raw, no belt, no straps, just chalk. These lifts have continued to go up even as I have lost weight, but I realize that gravy train may end at any point. I also realize this is strong compared to the general population but weak compared to more experienced lifters.

So, on to my specific questions.

Am I strong for a 280 lb fat guy?

Am I strong for a formerly sedentary bum who started lifting 14 months ago and did not pick up a barbell until 8 months ago?

Is it realistic to expect my strength to be retained or even enhanced when I am down another 60lbs?

Is a 600 raw deadlift, 500 raw squat and 400 raw bench something I should expect next year, two years from now or should I be prepared for a long road ahead of me on my quest for strength, especially given my primary goal of fat loss?

I train full body 3x per week, with heavy barbell work on a 5x5 protocol forming the foundation of my workouts. It has been working well and I am considering taking up 5/3/1, but that is another discussion. My diet is good when I avoid cracking open some beer, which I do a few times per week, but that is another discussion as well.

Thanks for taking the time to read my post.

Best regards,

twojarslave

2

Just my opinion here:

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
Am I strong for a 280 lb fat guy?
[/quote]
No. (Don’t get mad neither am I)

Sure, I guess.

Your leverage is going to change, but if you’re nutrition and training are on point there’s no reason why you can’t get stronger while leaning out. At least until you start approaching lower percentages of body fat.

Prepare for a long road especially if you are trying to get lean and strong at the same time. A lot of people fail when trying to serve more than 1 master. Good intentions or not.

3

[quote]twojarslave wrote:

Am I strong for a 280 lb fat guy? [/quote]

No.

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
Am I strong for a formerly sedentary bum who started lifting 14 months ago and did not pick up a barbell until 8 months ago?[/quote]

No. But you aren’t weak either. You are pretty much right in the meaty center.

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
Is it realistic to expect my strength to be retained or even enhanced when I am down another 60lbs?[/quote]

Of your 4 questions, this is the most difficult to answer. You may continue to gain strength as you lose weight, or you may not. But if you do, it will be at a much slower rate. Eventually, as you continue to lose weight, you will stall or backslide a bit. Where that point is varies wildly for different people. My only advice would be to take a conservative approach to weight loss if strength is important to you.

The problem here is you may not realize just how fat you are. If your primary goal is 10-15% body fat, at your current LBM, that would probably put you in the 175-195lb range for total body weight. Let’s say you progress well, and in spite of your caloric deficit, manage to put another 10lb of lean mass on in the next 12 months. This puts you around 185-205 tbw. If you can pull 3x bw, squat 2.5x and bench 2x bw in under 2 years of training, congratulations, you a genetic marvel. Some would argue against this on this site, but the facts just don’t pan out in their favor. It takes the vast majority of unassisted lifters several years to achieve this.

Don’t get bogged down in looking too far ahead. That’s a mistake a lot of new lifters make. No one can tell you with certainty how strong you will get or how much fat you can lose, etc. Determine what your priorities are and plan accordingly. If you aren’t reaching your goals (or more specifically, if you aren’t making consistent progress toward those goals), then you need to adjust. Good luck.

4

I’m not mad at all, just grateful for some feedback. The guys at my gym are great, but fountains of useful information about lifting they are not. So here I am.

I have a follow-up question for you.

Assuming solid nutrition, on-point training, and roughly 35% current bodyfat, how much longer could I be looking forward to serving two masters of fat loss and strength gains? Another 10%, 20%? You mentioned lower body fat percentages, probably being deliberately vague, so I am just looking for a rough guess if you have one.

This doesn’t really change my overall approach, but the road is quite long and its nice to have an idea of what might lie ahead of me.

Thanks again for your feedback.

5

[quote]Goldie4545 wrote:

The problem here is you may not realize just how fat you are. If your primary goal is 10-15% body fat, at your current LBM, that would probably put you in the 175-195lb range for total body weight. Let’s say you progress well, and in spite of your caloric deficit, manage to put another 10lb of lean mass on in the next 12 months. This puts you around 185-205 tbw. If you can pull 3x bw, squat 2.5x and bench 2x bw in under 2 years of training, congratulations, you a genetic marvel. Some would argue against this on this site, but the facts just don’t pan out in their favor. It takes the vast majority of unassisted lifters several years to achieve this. [/quote]

Thank you for that insight. I’m walking a long road with nobody in my life who has done anything remotely close to what I am trying to achieve, so this is exactly the type of reality check I was hoping to get by coming here.

6

[quote]Goldie4545 wrote:
Eventually, as you continue to lose weight, you will stall or backslide a bit.
[/quote]

I don’t agree with this. Read some of the bodybuilding logs or, for example, JM’s Micro-Pa log. Many of these guys do not lose strength even as the get into contest shape. Stalling towards the end, sure, but not until the end of contest prep. Check out Berg’s log for example, he is still setting PRs while prepping.

I remember reading something JM wrote about this very thing recently, which was basically it’s inexcusable to get weaker while getting lean (if you do it the right way).

I’m not saying it’s a hard and fast rule or that some people disagree. Just that it’s not a fact so to speak.

7

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
I’m not mad at all, just grateful for some feedback. The guys at my gym are great, but fountains of useful information about lifting they are not. So here I am.

I have a follow-up question for you.

Assuming solid nutrition, on-point training, and roughly 35% current bodyfat, how much longer could I be looking forward to serving two masters of fat loss and strength gains? Another 10%, 20%? You mentioned lower body fat percentages, probably being deliberately vague, so I am just looking for a rough guess if you have one.

This doesn’t really change my overall approach, but the road is quite long and its nice to have an idea of what might lie ahead of me.

Thanks again for your feedback.[/quote]

I think with the right attitude (which you seem to have) and the understanding that by pursuing both you are hindering each (ie it will take longer to achieve your fat loss and strength goals simultaneously) you can stay the course until you reach either your ideal bf% or the strength levels you want. Personally, I think if you are serious about 6/5/4 #s there will come a time when you will need to focus primarily on strength.

FWIW those are my 5 year goal #s.

8

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Goldie4545 wrote:
Eventually, as you continue to lose weight, you will stall or backslide a bit.
[/quote]

I don’t agree with this. Read some of the bodybuilding logs or, for example, JM’s Micro-Pa log. Many of these guys do not lose strength even as the get into contest shape. Stalling towards the end, sure, but not until the end of contest prep. Check out Berg’s log for example, he is still setting PRs while prepping.

I remember reading something JM wrote about this very thing recently, which was basically it’s inexcusable to get weaker while getting lean (if you do it the right way).

I’m not saying it’s a hard and fast rule or that some people disagree. Just that it’s not a fact so to speak. [/quote]

Definitely. That’s why they don’t have weight classes for strength sports.

9

I would get in contact with this guy

10

^^gross

11

280 lb fat guys can be strong as shit.

But your progress is good given the time frame.

Just a guess, but I think you can continue to build strength if you drop weight slowly another 40 lbs no problem.

12

I agree with goldie. I’ve leaned out from 340 to 210, and I don’t even really look like I lift. I just had no conception of how fat I was.

At my lowest, I was 206 without much lifting, bulked up to 255 with serious lifting (though, not quite as strong as you), and I probably looked more like I lifted when I was big (though, this could just be how I felt). I figure if I lost 20 lbs, I’d look healthy, and if I lost 40, I’d be pretty shredded.

Here I am 45 lbs lighter and I would say I’m still another 30-40 from abs (could be overestimating due to past underestimates).

Good job on increasing the strength while cutting. My lifts stalled out a long time ago, and some even regressed slightly.

13

I’ll third the opinion that you are not exceptionally strong for a 280 pound fat guy, but you have shown excellent progress for someone who was sedentary until a year ago and has just taken up lifting in the last eight months. Kudos for your decision to get healthy and use lifting as a means to that end. It seems like you have a great attitude and understand that this is a lifetime commitment, not a quick fix. Keep up the good work.

You may reach a point where your lifts stall as you shed excess poundage, but keep at it; the heavy lifting will help you preserve the muscle you have as you’re shedding the excess. Instead if thinking about 6/5/4 now, I’d recommend focusing on losing the excess poundage (for the sake of your health) while striving for the best numbers you can on the big three. That might be a 495 dead, 405 squat, and 315 bench - or it might be higher. Just keep striving to add weight to the bar and take it off the scale :slight_smile:

14

[quote]AbsuM- wrote:
^^gross[/quote]

No shit, he destroyed his body for twenty years.

But there is nothing gross about the effort to fix what he had fucked up. The loose skin isn’t attractive, but his determination to change and better himself is amazing.

OP good luck on building a better body and life!

15

[quote]AbsuM- wrote:
^^gross[/quote]
So the guy lost a lot of weight, gained a lot of muscle, and your only comment is “gross”. You are an asshole!

16

I thought it was well accepted at this point that AbsuM- was an unapologetic troll.

17

[quote]Goldie4545 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Goldie4545 wrote:
Eventually, as you continue to lose weight, you will stall or backslide a bit.
[/quote]

I don’t agree with this. Read some of the bodybuilding logs or, for example, JM’s Micro-Pa log. Many of these guys do not lose strength even as the get into contest shape. Stalling towards the end, sure, but not until the end of contest prep. Check out Berg’s log for example, he is still setting PRs while prepping.

I remember reading something JM wrote about this very thing recently, which was basically it’s inexcusable to get weaker while getting lean (if you do it the right way).

I’m not saying it’s a hard and fast rule or that some people disagree. Just that it’s not a fact so to speak. [/quote]

Definitely. That’s why they don’t have weight classes for strength sports. [/quote]

I assume you are being sarcastic here?

That’s fine:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I’m not saying it’s a hard and fast rule or that some people disagree. Just that it’s not a fact so to speak. [/quote]

You should not lose strength while losing weight imo. You may have leverage issues or stall at times, but if done properly there is no reason you should get weaker.

I don’t see how pointing out there are weight classes in strength sports changes that. Ya heavier guys typically lift heavier weights, but it isn’t because of the extra fat they carry around (unless it’s leverage related). A guy that cuts from 210 to compete at 198 isn’t going to do that if his #'s will go down in the process.

18

Thanks for all of the great replies. I know I am just scratching the surface of my potential for strength. As I previously indicated, I’m not making modifications to my approach yet, but was looking for a reality check on my strength. I felt like my ego needed one after spending a few months being the strongest weak guy at my local gym.

That man in the video is a beast. You can really see the change in his eyes. He knows what he did. My build is much different from his, even at my heaviest, so I am hoping I don’t have a serious issue with loose skin. That’s a problem I am months away from, if I even have to deal with it.

I will continue chasing strength, with 405 squat and 315 bench being my immediate goals. I’ve been losing between 0 and 2 pounds per week for most of 2014, which I am happy with as long as my strength continues to build. My next problem to solve is working up the balls to step under 405 and see if I can squat it and hope that one of my gym companions will be able to spot me.

I’m pretty sure I can, but I’m not in a rush to get there while I still have technique to dial in (gotta remember to spread the floor). I’m apparently built to deadlift, and I am going to try 515 in a week or two and I am confident I could pull 545 in a few months. Bench is my weakest of the big 3, but I am getting much better on technique as well as upping my volume a little bit.

The carrot on the stick for me is the prospect of eating big and really chasing strength, but I’m not setting myself loose on that until I lose at least another 40 or 50 lbs. I started out trying to lose weight but I fell in love with moving iron short distances. I’m hooked, but I don’t think I need to explain what that is all about to the people who read this forum.

So one more follow-up question for all of you meatheads. Are my strength proportions okay, given my progress and time frame? Should I have a higher bench for having a 495 DL, or am I in a “normal” range? I’ve read about muscle imbalances as a long-term problem for weight lifters. I certainly don’t feel like I am developing any. I feel better than I have since I was a teenager, but what the hell do I know about this stuff?

Thanks again for the support and for taking the time to entertain my curiosity.

19

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
So one more follow-up question for all of you meatheads. Are my strength proportions okay, given my progress and time frame? Should I have a higher bench for having a 495 DL, or am I in a “normal” range? I’ve read about muscle imbalances as a long-term problem for weight lifters. I certainly don’t feel like I am developing any. I feel better than I have since I was a teenager, but what the hell do I know about this stuff? [/quote]

Everyone is different, but I’d say your bench is a tad low compared to your squat and DL. I have a feeling that will change relatively quickly as your technique gets better. Everyone has a worst life (mine is the squat). One thing to keep in mind though is that weight lose seem to affect bench #s quite a bit. OHP might help your bench max. For me dips have a solid carryover and recently paused bench has carried over nicely.

20

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
You should not lose strength while losing weight imo. You may have leverage issues or stall at times, but if done properly there is no reason you should get weaker.
[/quote]

I was being sarcastic, yes. Spot on.

I guess we’ll just have to disagree on this point. It seems pretty ridiculous to me, honestly, but I guess everyone’s got their opinions. A novice would read this statement and assume you can indefinitely lose weight and indefinitely maintain or gain strength at the same time. Is this what you are saying? Cause if you’ve got the secret on how to do this, you could be a millionaire.

If your point was actually that many seasoned body builders maintain strength or in some cases, gain some strength, in the early and middle phases of a cut, which is a PRE-DETERMINED and FINITE amount of time, where the competitor may drop 5-10% bf, after which point said bodybuilder would likely INCREASE his or her calories to INCREASE muscle mass and strength, well you would be correct. It would also be completely irrelevant to the OP’s question.

Homeboy is not doing a 12-week contest prep. He is on an indefinite weight loss journey to reach somewhere between 10 to 15% bf, with no pre-determined time frame and no certainty when he will reach that goal. He is currently at 35-40% bf. He may need to lose as much as 30% bf. That’s a gall darn small child (no offense OP, you’re doing a great job - keep it up). He will have massive leverage changes to contend with as he continues.

Now, he may continue to increase his lifts for quite some time. As I stated previously, when that growth will stall is not clear. But one thing is clear, he will eventually stall. Whether he stalls next month, or stalls one week before winning worlds in the IPF, it will happen eventually. Most likely, he is a normal human being, and without the aid of anabolics, he will fall somewhere in the middle. Then, he will have to serve two masters and decide how to prioritize and periodize those goals.