Smaller Stronger Leaner

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
You should not lose strength while losing weight imo. You may have leverage issues or stall at times, but if done properly there is no reason you should get weaker.
[/quote]

[quote]Goldie4545 wrote:
I guess we’ll just have to disagree on this point. It seems pretty ridiculous to me, honestly, but I guess everyone’s got their opinions. A novice would read this statement and assume you can indefinitely lose weight and indefinitely maintain or gain strength at the same time. Is this what you are saying? Cause if you’ve got the secret on how to do this, you could be a millionaire.

If your point was actually that many seasoned body builders maintain strength or in some cases, gain some strength, in the early and middle phases of a cut, which is a PRE-DETERMINED and FINITE amount of time, where the competitor may drop 5-10% bf, after which point said bodybuilder would likely INCREASE his or her calories to INCREASE muscle mass and strength, well you would be correct. It would also be completely irrelevant to the OP’s question. [/quote]

Nothing wrong with disagreeing.

Ya, I’m pretty much saying you can lose weight and gain strength at the same time until you reach a certain point/% of body fat. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough in that training, nutrition, reset, etc… need to be spot on to be successful. Not to mention the element of time it will take while trying to fulfill both goals.

Like I said, re-comp, is not a universally agreed upon strategy.

[quote]Goldie4545 wrote:
Homeboy is not doing a 12-week contest prep. He is on an indefinite weight loss journey to reach somewhere between 10 to 15% bf, with no pre-determined time frame and no certainty when he will reach that goal. He is currently at 35-40% bf. He may need to lose as much as 30% bf. That’s a gall darn small child (no offense OP, you’re doing a great job - keep it up). He will have massive leverage changes to contend with as he continues.
[/quote]

I tend to think those on a long term fat loss plan, especially those previously sedentary, have a great potential of doing both, within reason. Even more so than a bodybuilder in prep mode especially one who has reached damn near their genetic potential (assuming natural).

I mentioned leverage changes a couple of times. A leverage change, imo, doesn’t equal a loss of strength though.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Your leverage is going to change, but if you’re nutrition and training are on point there’s no reason why you can’t get stronger while leaning out. At least until you start approaching lower percentages of body fat. [/quote]

[quote]Goldie4545 wrote:
Now, he may continue to increase his lifts for quite some time. As I stated previously, when that growth will stall is not clear. But one thing is clear, he will eventually stall. [/quote]

Sure, more than likely.

[quote]Goldie4545 wrote:
Whether he stalls next month, or stalls one week before winning worlds in the IPF, it will happen eventually. Most likely, he is a normal human being, and without the aid of anabolics, he will fall somewhere in the middle. Then, he will have to serve two masters and decide how to prioritize and periodize those goals.
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Agreed and I said as much earlier.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Prepare for a long road especially if you are trying to get lean and strong at the same time. A lot of people fail when trying to serve more than 1 master. Good intentions or not. [/quote]

I mean, lol, it sounds like we pretty much agree?

22

Look up MiJuggernaut on this site.

23

I guess we agree in a global sense. I just want OP to have realistic goals so he’s not disappointed down the line.

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[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Look up MiJuggernaut on this site.[/quote]

Wow

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[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Look up MiJuggernaut on this site.[/quote]

Very impressive. Great to see his pics spanning 2007 all the way to 2012. I’m very excited to see what I can accomplish three or four years from now. The first year has been incredible.

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Op: what were your beginning numbers? How much have you progressed?

I think he will continue to gain strength because he Is a newbie. With 8 months of training, you think he could milk those newbie gains as long as he is consuming enough protein and lifting heavy. And of course as his technique improves, so will his strength.

But there will come a point in time that your sheer “mass” reduction will be detrimental to your strength. Unfortunately, this will be most evident in the bench. 20 pounds in body mass- whether it’s muscle, fat, water or a combo, makes a big difference.

27

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
Op: what were your beginning numbers? How much have you progressed?
[/quote]

That’s tough to answer because I never measured it properly when starting out and it took me a little while to get a feel for what “heavy” meant for me. My first 6 months of training were with dumb bells, ellipticals, water aerobics and machines, totally lacking in structure, lacking any meaningful strength measurements and lacking any controlled progression. I did a lot of bicep curls and, fortunately, lots of homework on lifting.

When I started 5x5 early fall of 2013 (around September) I was somewhere in the following neighborhood.

Work sets of 155x5 on bench. My first 1RM attempt was 200 lbs and was probably in October of last year. It was “heavy” for me at the time, but I was still getting a feel for my strength as well as working on technique. 225x5 came in December, I think.

Work sets of 185x5 on squat. Still have not attempted a 1RM. I lack the confidence in my technique to do work sets above three plates.

Work sets of 275x5 on deadlift. I think my first 1RM attempt was around November and it was 365. 495 came pretty easy for me and I hit that on January 15 of this year. I’ve been doing work sets with 4 plates lately, and 4 plates + chains because chains are fun. Pulled 5 reps with 405 + chains this week, not sure how much the chains weigh but they are heavy.

Those lifts all shot up really fast, obviously. So my starting strength was probably much greater than what I was lifting, but I was more concerned with learning the movements at that point. Once I had at least a baseline confidence that I wasn’t going to blow out my back or knees, I started adding weight and have only recently been making an effort to really test the limits of my current strength.

My theory is that carrying around all of that weight for all of those years probably gave me a structural advantage for starting strength over someone with an equivalent LBM but 10% bodyfat. Stronger bones, stronger ligaments, stronger tendons and a strong core.

28

Solid progress.

You probably have just a naturally big frame. Well suited for “moving heaving iron short distances”.

29

OP, good job on your progress. Will you drop strength while leaning out fully? Maybe, maybe not. No matter what you do programming wise, chances are you MAY drop a bit of strength on certain movements as you close in on your leanness goals, but with proper programming its unlikely you’ll see any staggering strength loss. Given your current strength levels, you should NOT drop any strength in any of your main lifts in the 3-5RM range, your strength-endurance may drop with the calorie and carb deficits eventually. When you get legitimately strong and move weights in the 4/5/6, your 1RM will tend to tank as you drop weight.

At yiour current level, strength is WAAAY MORE mental than you think it is, I’ve helped another member here with his programming and with the right goading, he reversed his “strength loss” and set a PR in a single session after the right “goading”.

30

[quote]jeremielemauvais wrote:
OP, good job on your progress. Will you drop strength while leaning out fully? Maybe, maybe not. No matter what you do programming wise, chances are you MAY drop a bit of strength on certain movements as you close in on your leanness goals, but with proper programming its unlikely you’ll see any staggering strength loss. Given your current strength levels, you should NOT drop any strength in any of your main lifts in the 3-5RM range, your strength-endurance may drop with the calorie and carb deficits eventually. When you get legitimately strong and move weights in the 4/5/6, your 1RM will tend to tank as you drop weight.

At yiour current level, strength is WAAAY MORE mental than you think it is, I’ve helped another member here with his programming and with the right goading, he reversed his “strength loss” and set a PR in a single session after the right “goading”.[/quote]

Thank you for the great feedback.

I am beginning to understand strength on a mental level, and agree that refining my technique, gaining confidence and getting more consistently executed reps under my belt will definitely do more to help me move more iron than any muscle tissue gains I could reasonably expect in the near future.

I have been really wanting to hire a coach, but have not been successful as of yet. The trainers I have spoken with at my gym did not seem to understand my goals, instead steering me towards “toning” and cardio to lose weight quickly. They were friendly enough, but they did not seem equipped to actually help me move more iron than I already am. They were probably just trying to sell me what most of their clients want.

I am thinking that going to a powerlifting meet would be a good way to get in contact with a coach. I have reasonably deep pockets and would be willing to pay the right person well for their time. Any suggestions on the best way to go about getting the right coach would be greatly appreciated.

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If you do have deep pockets I STRONGLY recommend you limit your forum time on here and hire Shelby Starnes, especially since you’ve apparently been able to bench 275, squat 3 plates and dead 500 within a year or so of beginning weight training.

Shelby has competed as a powerlifter as well as a bodybuilder, he knows what it takes to build a lot of size, strength as well as to drop a lot of fat without needing to constantly force a tired dichotomy between size and strength training down the throats of beginning and early intermediate lifters.

[quote]twojarslave wrote:
Thank you for the great feedback.

I am beginning to understand strength on a mental level, and agree that refining my technique, gaining confidence and getting more consistently executed reps under my belt will definitely do more to help me move more iron than any muscle tissue gains I could reasonably expect in the near future.

I have been really wanting to hire a coach, but have not been successful as of yet. The trainers I have spoken with at my gym did not seem to understand my goals, instead steering me towards “toning” and cardio to lose weight quickly. They were friendly enough, but they did not seem equipped to actually help me move more iron than I already am. They were probably just trying to sell me what most of their clients want.

I am thinking that going to a powerlifting meet would be a good way to get in contact with a coach. I have reasonably deep pockets and would be willing to pay the right person well for their time. Any suggestions on the best way to go about getting the right coach would be greatly appreciated.
[/quote]

32

^
Some great advice there, I second the idea that Shelby would be a great match for you.

I recently did a big cut, my RMP thread and training log might be of interest to you. Maybe start your own log on here too.

33

I checked out Shelby Starnes’ website and it was both intriguing and impressive. It is definitely something I would consider a bit further down the road, but I need to work on my own discipline in the kitchen before I pay someone else to tell me what to eat. Definitely pricey, but I could see the potential value in his services.

That said, I just bought a new vehicle so my pockets aren’t THAT deep at the moment. They may be deep enough to pay someone who can help me with a little one-on-one coaching on my major compound barbell movements (Big 3, Front Squat, OHP, RDL, BO Row) and perhaps teach me a few that I am not doing but should work into the rotation. I suppose I’d also want to know whatever else a slowly shrinking fatass should know about weightlifting, but I’d settle for someone who can help my main lifts. I’m positive my technique has tremendous room for improvement, since I have basically been coached by youtube.

How to actually go about finding someone who would be a suitable strength coach is something I could use some advice on. I know that very strong men live in my area (Lewiston, ME) and work out at a gym across town, so a local powerlifting and bodybuilding subculture is present. Joining that gym is not something that is practical for me right now, so my best idea is to find a coach. What to look for in a coach is what I am clueless on.

Would any person with a 1500-2000 total be able to help me move more iron, regardless of their coaching skills?

Should I be looking for a Yoda of the barbell? Any present and willing brick shithouse of a man who moves more iron than me? Something else?

Let’s say my weightlifting coach budget is $500. I’m all ears for any ideas.

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If there is a serious group of powerlifters, join them. I’d take that over online coaching any day.

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[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
If there is a serious group of powerlifters, join them. I’d take that over online coaching any day.[/quote]

If I could, I would. Switching gyms to work out with the powerlifters is not something I can swing right now, hence my idea to hire one of them.

To be clear, I’m looking for in-person coaching to help me move more iron, not online coaching.

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[quote]twojarslave wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
If there is a serious group of powerlifters, join them. I’d take that over online coaching any day.[/quote]

If I could, I would. Switching gyms to work out with the powerlifters is not something I can swing right now, hence my idea to hire one of them.

To be clear, I’m looking for in-person coaching to help me move more iron, not online coaching.[/quote]

Could you spend a couple of workouts there? Maybe you could talk to somebody high in the food chain at the powerlifting gym and see if any of them could come to you to coach you a few times. I think if you present to a passionate lifter that you really just need some technique help plus advice on how to balance gaining strength while removing excess weight somebody would surely help you for $500. I know I would if I was a)qualified and b)lived there

37

[quote]ThePitbull86 wrote:

Could you spend a couple of workouts there?[/quote]

I went there once during a snowstorm when my gym was closed. There were some strong guys there at the time, but the one really big guy skipped legs I think.

I spoke to the guy at the front desk about the powerlifters, asking when they worked out. He confirmed that they worked out there, but was basically a dick to me. He would not give me any contact names, nor would he tell me when they show up. He said it was “invitation only”. I think he looked at me and just saw some fat guy who like, probably didn’t even lift brah. He was very dismissive.

Agree, and I suppose I may need to make the time to at least go over to that gym, let a whey protein fart out as I walk past the dick at the front desk and start asking around to make the inroads necessary to find someone who can help me improve. I know there is at least one guy with a 2400+ total (yes, that is correct) working out there, and a handful of other guys who are serious about strength and could probably teach me a thing or two.

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[quote]twojarslave wrote:
Agree, and I suppose I may need to make the time to at least go over to that gym, let a whey protein fart out as I walk past the dick at the front desk and start asking around to make the inroads necessary to find someone who can help me improve. I know there is at least one guy with a 2000+ total working out there, and a handful of other guys who are serious about strength and could probably teach me a thing or two.
[/quote]

Yeah, that’s really the best option you have outside of online coaching. Unfortunately outside of major metropolitan areas there really isn’t a ton of options. If you have a phone that takes video too you could get some good advice from guys around here on technique, also check out books by Wendler and Rippetoe. I found just by learning some basic cues, (stay tight, chest up, etc.) to think about while performing the lifts you can really start to fix yourself a bit.

39

So I happened across the name of a guy from my area with a 2502 total. I’m pretty sure one of the 100 or so strongest men ever to live could teach me a LOT. I messaged him on facebook to see if he’s for hire. What’s the worst that could happen? Okay, I suppose he could track me down and throw me into the river, but he looked like a friendly guy on his facebook page. Keeping my fingers crossed…

On a side note, it has been great getting feedback from everyone here at T-Nation. I’ve had iron on my mind quite a bit lately and it is nice having people to talk to about it without having to wade through a bunch of bullshit. I’m finding that this is a surprisingly cerebral community.

40

OP, a little more food for thought here, if you’ll indulge me:

I think it’s terrific that you’ve used powerlifting as a means to turn yourself from “obese sedentary guy” to something healthier. I also think it’s important to decide exactly what you’re trying to turn yourself into, because that may dictate how you think about the lifts and your training from here onward.

If your ultimate goal is to achieve a leaner and healthier physique, then you might want to think of the lifts more like tools to achieve that end goal. Rather than moving as much weight as possible, you will continue to squat, bench, and deadlift with the primary goal of maintaining as much muscle mass as possible. Your lifts may stagnate or even decrease at some point along the way, but that won’t concern you because your principal concern is leaning out. If that gets you to 205 pounds and with a 405/315/495 squat/bench/deadlift, you wouldn’t make much of a splash in powerlifting circles, but you’ll be far ahead of much of the population and healthier to boot.

If you decide that powerlifting is the main pursuit of interest, you may decide to stabilize your bodyweight a little higher and concentrate on getting as strong as possible in that weight class. Perhaps you get to 240 pounds or so, realize that it’s no longer viable to keep increasing your lifts while losing weight, and then decide to junk the weight-loss goal in pursuit of your best possible total in the 242 class. You could be much stronger than you’d be in the previous paragraph; whether you’d be healthier or not is difficult to say.

A powerlifter with a 2500 total is going to be a beast no matter what, but if his goal has always been “move the most weight possible in the three lifts” he might not be the best coach to advise you on this particular journey (although he may well have some useful tips on technique and training that anyone could benefit from). That’s why I think you ought to have an idea what the end goal is. I’m sure that he can help you with technique on the lifts no matter what, but he may not be the ideal long-term coach for you. Make sense?

I say all this as a former college football offensive lineman that dropped about 50 pounds, saw all of my lifts drop significantly, but ultimately came out feeling much leaner, healthier, and happier with my physique. I can bench press about 75% of my all-time PR, but exactly what I can lift has taken a backseat to “Is today’s workout working the muscles the way that I want to?”

Powerlifting is fantastic. You absolutely can and should keep doing the powerlifts even if your goal is “get healthier” rather than “become an Elite powerlifter” - but you may have to think about things a bit differently as you move along on this journey.