In many ways my feeling did make me get that second attempt, but the weight only at the weight it was programmed for. If I was auto regulating I may have said, fk it I feel shit today I wont bother. What I actually said was, I know I can hit that because the program is right, now get your head back in the game and do your job.
1 Like
So are u saying u reckon that adapting to how you are performing on any given day is not super useful in the grand scheme of things?
That does, of course, make sense. But Mark said something key just above with:
So like, you have a fairly clear set of goals in mind that are about the specific numbers. But those are far from the only kinds of goals.
But anyway, for what you are doing, it makes perfect sense. And it obviously holds true, because you are getting it done.
1 Like
Exactly.
Mike Tuchscherer has shown that autoregulation can work but it is much harder to manage. Also seems to overwhelmingly work better with real time coaching.
If you talk to people at a meet who are uninjured but performed well below their expecations, a common trend is that they felt great at some point during peak and pushed a little harder than planned. As a result, they tipped the balance of fatigue vs recovery enough to impact recovery.
1 Like
When training towards a specific end point, not really.
How you feel is a function of fatigue and external stressors.
Look, I can go in one week and hit all my AFSAP sets in one set, hit some high AMRAPs and feel amazing. Two weeks or months later with the same weights I might struggle to get through 5x3. All it means is at one point I wasn’t carrying much fatigue, and at the other point I was.
2 Likes
This is a very interesting point and one worth discussing more. My goals right now are to get stronger in the 3 lifts, hence the program I am following. The program doesn’t target a specific number it uses previous maxes to determine the weight, reps, volume etc.(in reality these numbers are also tweaked by the coach but lets say for now they aren’t).
So there is no specific number for each lift that the program finishes at that is above my previous max.
I also have a goal of looking strong and not being a complete slob when it comes to conditioning. So how does the program help with this. Well the program includes accessories that give me hypertrophy so hopefully that build a little muscle and the volume helps with work capacity. If I need more conditioning then I add it in my off days. So what you can see is that be being focused mainly on one single thing, in this case strength I am still able to benefit in the other areas too.
If i were to focus on those other areas at the same time and try to program in that way or use auto regulation of any kind. The likelihood (for me) is that I would do either too much volume on the accessories or too much work. I would also amrap and max out more leading to systemic fatigue and probably not finish the program. Then I would look for a new program that gave me more of what I wanted. This is just fictional, but is it starting to sound like other threads on here. I see it all the time.
2 Likes
You just desrcibed about 99% of people’s 531 experiences
1 Like
There are not many people that can truly program for themselves and get it right, and add in the concept of a joker or amrap or let them pick from a huge list of movements and it is a recipe for disaster.
I am a no one when it comes to all this strength stuff, there are heaps of guys on here stronger than me and they do it without any specific program. So just working hard does work for lots of people. But there are also many cases where it doesn’t.
All i know for me is that having something simple to follow was almost a relief. I dont need to worry about it, I just work. The results (whilst not impressive to some) are clear for me to see and I will keep doing this until it stops working.
2 Likes
Anyone who is not deliberately being an a-hole would say your results are impressive, mate, just so that much is clear. What you are doing definitely works, and no less because of the rigid adherence you have to your plan.
2 Likes
This I’m not so sure about Mark. You just poked to a Wendler fanboy.
TL:DR: there are many strong dudes that’s been running 531 for years.
In his private forum there are many many lifters whe benefit hugely from his programs.
It’s a philosophy more than a program.
I get that some people adds in too much, too soon.
The philosophy about the original program, let’s just stick to that, is to lift 3 increasingly heavier sets at a specific weight. The last set you take to a rep PR not a true amrap. But one rep better than last time you was lifting that weight.
This very very slow progression will have you dealing with the same weight every 2 or 3 cycles so you 531 rep of a given weight lets say 5 reps of 100 will after 2 or 3 cycles be on your 3’s week then you’d have to lift it for 6 reps you might be able to lift it for 7 or 10 reps but you do not have to, because you’ve become stronger.
After this you work on your weak points in the main lift.
Then some said that is not enough volume so Jim played around and found other ways to skin the cat.
These days he works almost with the same principles but only doing sets of 5 for 2 cycles then you deload and to 1 cycle where you PR, before going back to 2 cycles.
pheww almost lost my breath here.
3 Likes
That’s a decent way to conceptualise autoregulation. Trying to balance stimulus, fatigue and recovery.
I’m not arguing here but am interested in discussing different approaches. So here’s how I’m thinking:
So each sesh each week of a program is planned out to give a certain stimulus and the fatigue is planned for also. It’s possible to go too hard like in the peaking scenario. Could also be possible to go to ez and miss out on stimulus that would still be worth it for the fatigue you get.
How does a plan using a hard % number of a comp 1RM keep you from going too hard or too ez if like u were saying performance/stimulus, fatigue from lifting and outside and recovery is hard to accurately predict or super reliably control?
Is going too hard like in the peaking scenario mean like over a specific percentage of 1RM? If your recovery ability and fatigue generated over the peak is variable and unpredictable how can we know that exact number / stimulus will give us the adaption we want at that crucial time leading into a meet?
Because like stimulus recovery fatigue and the adaption you get are kinda like related. You could like chuck em in an equation or somethings. You can control the stimulus you get pretty well, plan for the fatigue it generates fairly well but recovery is variable so the adaption is variable and fatigue generated is variable also.
We want max adaption with minimal fatigue as we can get over weeks and months that are made up of lots of sessions to form the program. Why not make micro adjustments to a it each sesh/week/month closer to the ideal/sweetspot?
My brain hurts now.
I think you might find that those who are on his forum and successful are the 1%. The other 99% changed program after trying for 6 weeks.
2 Likes
There are some great points in here and a bit too much to unravel in one go so I am going to just play devils advocate to one point.
This is the exact part that undoes lost of people who train. Everyone wants to think they can get the most out of everything and in most cases chasing this causes them to get less. This is not a sprint it is a marathon. Lets say there were times in my last 16 weeks (3 blocks and a peak) where I felt great and could have done more and that more work gave me a slight extra gain. Maybe when I test at the end of the peak i get what ? 1 or 2 kg more in the bench ? I only have to get something slightly wrong with my set up or not get enough sleep 2 days before testing or comp and that 1-2kg is gone anyway.
I look at it like, If i missed out on 1kg in this 16 weeks, then there is another 1kg to gain in the next 16 weeks. For me there is no end to this, i just keep going until my age or my potential is the limiting factor.
2 Likes
I tend to have great success with 531, but that might be because I do it fairly Old Skool and use a strange mix of dogmatic rigidity combined with very specific “autoregulation” concept. I actually do go AMRAP on the PR set, every single time. It is an interesting combination of a rigid program combined with a lot of doubt an anxiety about the PR set.
And then I treat the assistance stuff like the bullshit that Jim says it is, and so that gets regulated as well.
May I am the outlier. I tend to be that in most things.
2 Likes
You wont be an outlier, you are probably just able to be consistent and strict with your training, at least more so than many others. Mark and I are not having a dig at 531 in anyway. It works and it a great set of principles and some great training programs. The point was more to highlight that when people with little knowledge do this for themselves, they often fk it up.
1 Like
Totally agree, and I don’t think anyone thinks you guys are having a dig. Well, maybe Mort =)
It think my autoregulation works because I do it consistently. Wrap your head around that.
2 Likes
You could be the next Mike Tuchscherer !!
As long as he thinks that Beer and Salty Snacks are important macros, then sure.
1 Like
Mate we ain’t all young and invincible like you. Gotta live fast no ragrets
2 Likes
Sounds like u got a big head
1 Like